Tubing Installation Questions

[Maple Man 85]

I am bringing my Grandparents Sugar Bush into the 21st century and plan to run tubing and vacuum. The land is mostly flat and my concern is the pitch on the line to get proper flow. How does one achieve this? I've heard of sap ladders and think this is the solution but am looking for some first hand experience on the subject.

I also am trying to figure out how large of vacuum I need to cover 80 acres with 3500 trees.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance Maple Community!!!

[spud]

Welcome to Trader. I think what I would do is buy a $35.00 sight level and start walking the land. What you would be hoping for is some pitch all going to one section of the woods. If things are real flat then adjust your mainline to have pitch. I would set up the woods to have no more then 3 taps per lateral line. If you get 3500 taps then I would buy a 35-70 CFM two stage pump. If it was me it would be a 70 CFM pump. I would run a wet/dry system for sure. If all sap is coming in on one wet line then I would use 1 1/2 wet/dry but if the woods is split then I would use a 1 1/4 wet/dry system. I wish you the best.

Spud

[Maple Man 85]

A sight level is a great place to start thanks Spud. I also plan to take a GPS and map the property to see where I can save costs in tubing. Being that I am new to vacuum do the pumps have a rating system that tells how many CFM they are rated for? When installing a wet/dry system my understanding is that the dry line provides air so the wet line doesn't get locked up, is that installed just for the main line?

Maple Man 85

[GeneralStark]

Different manufacturers rate the CFM of their pumps differently. For instance some rate the pump at 15", others at higher vac. levels. The higher the vac. level the lower the CFM rating will be in most cases. The best thing to do is to obtain the performance curve for the pump to see what it can do at different vac. levels.

[morningstarfarm]

No, your dry line is connected to each of your side lines and does double duty....first it Carrys vacuum to the back of your bush...second it acts as a back up wet line when you get an ice blockage usually in the morning...and as such it goes back to your releaser

[madmapler]

I like to go on google earth. It has a reasonably accurate elevation counter. It will give you your high and low grades for sure just by moving your mouse around. It also has a pretty accurate measuring tool for figuring out your initial mainline distances. You can pretty much lay out your system at home within reason.

[DrTimPerkins]

....first it Carrys vacuum to the back of your bush...

Although that is the way most maple producers think of it and describe it, what is actually happening is that air is moving down to the pump and out of the tubing system rather than vacuum moving out from the pump to the tree. Problems occur when your pump is not capable enough to remove the air faster than it can enter from leaks or from gases produced by the tree (more in warmer weather). We also have the issue during sap flows of air getting trapped within the sap and not being able to be removed fast enough to maintain a good vacuum level at the end of the lateral lines. Having a dual-conductor system in the mainlines largely reduces that aspect of the problem because the air and sap are separated and each can move at their own rate (air faster and sap slower).

It is kind of the same strange way of thinking with vacuum levels. What we are actually trying to do is get lower pressure (and negative because it is below atmospheric pressure), but because we think of it as vacuum, we describe it as getting "high" vacuum as opposed to lower (or more negative) pressure in the tubing system.

Sorry....feel free to ignore me and return to your regular programming. :lol:

[Maple Man 85]

Thank you for your insight Maple Community,

Are there resources available such as videos or studies that show these tubing installation concepts. I would hate to invest time and money have the setup fail due to an oversight on my part.

Maple Man 85

[lpakiz]

MM85,
The very best thing you can do is visit a producer or two that use vacuum. You will learn more in an hour than we could collectively teach you in a week here.....

[BreezyHill]

I've heard of sap ladders and think this is the solution but am looking for some first hand experience on the subject.

I also am trying to figure out how large of vacuum I need to cover 80 acres with 3500 trees.

MM, I use many ladders to bring all the sap from my bush to my sugar house. Ladders work well if you don't mind realizing that you will need to inject air if your system is tight.

On a tight system I use 1 CFM for 100 taps, on a system that is not check at least every couple of days for leaks with repairs made I recommend 1 CFM per 50 taps ( 2 CFMs/ 100 taps). So for 3500 taps you can do it with 35 cfm or as much as 70

Ladders will consume a small amount of CFMs...I have 10 ladders...the total of their injectors is less than .2 cfm. More will be added as we finish retubing the entire farm.

If you are working with flat land then you will want a sight level like the black one on the right.12116

This is adjustable to the desired slope and is great for laying out the lines. The one in the middle is good for finding the slope of an area but is not so good for laying out lines as it is not as refined. I use a level and transit for laying out my 1%slope lines.

Dr Tim makes a great point....Evacuating a space is vacuuming.

GPS can help you to lay out lines if you have trees in groups in a bush and not throughout the entire 80 acres. I also use goggle earth to look at a bush. You can get a very accurate elevation reading on your plotter point as you move around the bush and find a depression that may be a good location to run a main line and have laterals come to. The other way for relatively flat property is to set your mains parallel at a distance of 50-75 feet with the 5/16 going to trees to the sides.
Tip: the cost of adding a mainline is easily expensed out when you calculate the length of several 5/16 laterals that will be reduced by installing the mainline laterals closer together. IE; by putting a mainline of 750' 50 feet up hill from another mainline I saved twice the cost of the additional mainline, saddles, and connectors. In the end I also will gain more sap production by reducing the 5/16 length and get more vac to the tap holes.

I would suggest Steve Childs tubing Book for a resource to start with. Good read with loads of vac info.

Visiting a producer is a good thing if the producer is on the right side of the poll cue. I know several that have a nice looking setup from far...but far from nice. Wet/dry lines that twist, mains with sags, missing check valves on the vac pump, no water traps, etc.

Read the book and get a basic knowledge of what you are looking at before visiting a farm. This way you will have questions to ask and you can have a second question of why did you do it that way. NOt everyone will do things the same way...especially not me; but there is a reason for all I do. Below is the proof. This is my releaser and water trap system. This is an old dairy releaser, electric releaser. Sap is pumped into the collection tank below or to two other tanks from the one pump. I can see each line from different parts of the bush and the left line of the releaser goes to a Dry line manifold outside of the building. This setup is around $200 since I have had to replace the stainless level sensor's reed switch. Capacity is over 10,000 taps. Great for tours, especially with kids. People will just stand and watch the sap come in for hours...even other producers.12117

Make the project your own...use the parts of other operations that will work best for you to make the best system for your operation.

Feel free to pm me if you want.

Ben

[GeneralStark]

By no means is this install in a flat situation but the photos may help you to visualize some of the techniques used in setting up a vacuum tubing system.

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?24005-Insights-From-A-Pro-Tubing-Install/page3&highlight=insights

Considering that you are in Wisconsin and flat woods and pretty common, it may be worth looking at some state of the art pro installs to see what they are doing. I saw an article in Maple News about several operations in WI that are burying their mainlines to get slope. I have seen some flat set-ups in Quebec and they generally slope their laterals and mainlines to a low point and pump sap from there.

The big question to need to answer is what is your goal in setting up this woods? Is this a hobby and you are looking to have some fun messing around in the woods, or are you hoping to produce as much sap/syrup as possible and actually make some money?

Sure you can put your whole woods on sap ladders and you will get sap, but you will not maximize your production that way. Find some other producers in the area that are achieving high yields and see what they are doing. GO to some workshops put on by the WI association. Read the studies. Sure you can learn some stuff here on the Trader but there is nothing as valuable as seeing the real thing and talking to folks with experience.

[unc23win]

Considering that you are in Wisconsin and flat woods and pretty common, it may be worth looking at some state of the art pro installs to see what they are doing. I saw an article in Maple News about several operations in WI that are burying their mainlines to get slope. I have seen some flat set-ups in Quebec and they generally slope their laterals and mainlines to a low point and pump sap from there.

Sure you can put your whole woods on sap ladders and you will get sap, but you will not maximize your production that way. Find some other producers in the area that are achieving high yields and see what they are doing. GO to some workshops put on by the WI association. Read the studies. Sure you can learn some stuff here on the Trader but there is nothing as valuable as seeing the real thing and talking to folks with experience.

I know a producer by me who set up all sorts of ladders and it worked for a few years now with new technology of the electric releasers they are going back and changing all their releasers to electric and pumping sap overcoming some slope issues and maximizing vacuum. They are also using the releasers to get better access into the woods by having more releasers but pumping sap up and over roads to less collection points. Like General said visit some producers come up with a plan for YOU that fits YOUR goals and budget.

[nymapleguy607]

If you are tubing 3500 taps it should be fairley easy to get someone from a maple dealer out there to walk the woods with you and give you some ideas. Even if you needed to pay a professional installer to help with layout and sizing I would say it was money well spent if you can tube it once and have it be high yielding.

[ennismaple]

I would hate to invest time and money have the setup fail due to an oversight on my part.[Maple Man 85

But that's how we all learned! The section of woods we just re-tubed on the weekend is now on its 3rd set of tubing and I think I've finally gotten it almost right! It only took 30 years...

If you tap the trees and have it connected to tubing that generally runs downhill you will get sap in your tank. Things like the size of the vacuum pump, wet/dry, mainline and lateral line layout, type of spouts etc... will all affect your yield per tap. Once you get one factor worked out you'll tinker with another. I do not know a maple producer who does not constantly tinker with things to get a little more sap next year. This is the fun part!

[markcasper]

Thank you for your insight Maple Community,

Are there resources available such as videos or studies that show these tubing installation concepts. I would hate to invest time and money have the setup fail due to an oversight on my part.

Maple Man 85 I would be very cautious if you are looking to hire a "professional" installer. This is no place to end up without doing some homework! You could regret it for the rest of your life. There are many reputable installers and there seems to be those that don't have a clue about what they are doing yet are promoted as experts. Ask to see jobs they have done, ask to see their own personal woods if it applies. Check to see if the trees are overtapped. If you see 3 taps in a 10" diameter tree you better be in contact with the tapping police. See what kind of end of the season care is practiced, i.e. if the taps are not pulled out of their trees? Be sure to walk through the ENTIRE woods and not just those along the road, maybe should look for somebody else. These are all hints and tricks to be aware of. And certainly ask many questions. Just because people are involved in a state association does not necessarily tell you they know what they are doing.

[Maple Man 85]

Thanks for the information I am definitely looking to turn a profit and maximize the property as I will be purchasing other equipment that will also need to be paid for. We have a large producer in my area that holds an open house and have vendors and professionals come in to talk maple which will be a good place to start. My current plan is...

Plot the Woods and do some logging this winter to clear out unwanted trees.
This spring I am going to skip syruping (which breaks my heart) and work on the tubing/vacuum
Then building a new sugar house this summer 24x40 while shopping for used equipment (new evaporators are crazy expensive)
Then hopefully by the spring of 2017 everything's in place to produce.

[n8hutch]

I think you have a good plan maple man, should be able to find a nice used evaporator right after maple season, And removing trees before you tube your bush is a no brainer.

It can be tough figuring out the best way to setup your woods, you could walk 5 very good operations and I can pretty much guaranty that they will all be done differently. And they all will be more or less happy with the sap they are getting. All that really matters is getting the most sap for your dollar.

[BreezyHill]

MM

Sounds like a good plan to get all your infrastructure setup to make a quality product. Our operation started in 1971 and when I took over after my dad passed in 2010 I decided to do many upgrades. Profitability is always a driving factor and with yields of 1/2 gallon per tap thru ladders it seems very obvious that it can be done...you just need to understand the science behind the equipment to get them to supply good production.

Ladders are not for everyone but many have had great success with them and yes there are those that have experienced failures and have no idea why. But this can be said of gravity systems as well. There will always be those that grasp the theory and can implement it and those that can not.

Good Luck!

Ben

[Super Sapper]

If you stop into Maple Hollow I am sure they will show their tubing setup and answer your questions.

[PATheron]

Mapleman- I have different types of tubing setups because I tap trees in several different woodlots. One way to set up your tubing that I don't hear talked about a lot is doing it like a fan with the mainlines. This is my favorite way. If you can get a whole bunch of taps running to one spot you go to that spot and put a booster. Then you just fan out your mainline from there. My one setup like that has 3000 and some taps running to that one spot. Its a big booster with like a dozen one inch mainlines running to it from the woods. Each one has a valve at the booster. From the booster it runs down hill to a tank where the releaser is with a wet dry line. 1.5 inch dry and a 1.25 wet. I get the woods tight and 25 inches of vac give or take. Then If I get a leak I just go to the booster and turn each valve off and turn it back on slow and I can hear the whoosh in the valve that has the leak on that line. That's how I find the leak fast. I prefer that approach to a wet dry running along the bottom of the woods because I can troubleshoot it easier than walking to each mainline connection on the wet dry to try each valve. I have both types of setups but like the fan best. Just something to think about when your eyeing up your woods. Looks a little funny and you have maybe a little more mainline because its close together at the booster but to me its worth it. The faster I can troubleshoot it the more taps I can keep track of. Make more money maybe. Theron