Elevated Vacuum pump

[TylerMcT]

I have a section of bush on a deep ravine with one single mainline at the bottom with laterals running down hill to it with a relesser and tank at the end of the mainline, about 500 taps. Would it be possible to have my vacuum pump elevated and run around 60-80 feet of line to reach the releaser. In the past I've had the pump directly beside but once the frost comes out its very difficult to remove in the spring. Also the hassle of bringing fuel and things down the ravine to keep it running. Any thoughts are taken into consideration thanks !

[unc23win]

A lot of people run vacuum lines from their pump to their releaser. I would try to match whatever size line the connection on the releaser is if it is smaller like 1" or 1.5". If it is 2" or 3" run multiple 1" lines into a manifold the same size as releaser then hook onto the releaser. I have seen it done many ways. You just want to make sure you can supply the releaser with what it needs.

[BreezyHill]

Tyler
There is nothing that is impossible...just not practical. This is easy.

The design will require you to:
1) calculate your pump size in cfms
2) measure the pump to releaser distance as accurately as possible.
3) Size the line to supply the pumps capacity to the releaser.

If your pump is over sized for the tubing system then you only need to supply what the releaser wastes and the systems requirement.

So what is your pump model and any idea what your cfm rating is?
Are you running all 500 taps on this releaser and any chance of expansion in the future?
Is your system tight and checked often?
These factors will all affect the design of the project.

One tool that will assist you with this project is Steve Childs, Of Cornell University, Vacuum Book. This is a invaluable source for the sugar maker that uses vacuum tubing system. Add it to your Christmas Wish List.

I have been using it since Steve sent me a pdf copy to look over. It has helped me and many others to redesign and improve our tubing systems for optimal performance.

Elevated pumps are great for protecting the pump from moisture.

There are a few tricks I have learned from elevated pumps that I will happily share in the design phase.

Ben

[TylerMcT]

Thanks for the reply guys.

Ben

The pump is a SIHI 50523 single stage liquid ring pump. The manufacture list says at 24" of vacuum the cfm is 153 - 311 depending on the speed the pump is driven at (1150) or (1750) rpm. I know it is way more pump than needed but I picked two of them up from a Kellogg's cereal plant which closed not to far from where I'm from. With that said there is a possibility to add another aprioximatly 300 to this section. With my releaser having a inlet of I think is 1 1/4 if I remember... How many lines should be running from the pump to the releaser to satisfy my needs ? I check for leaks at minimum of once a week I feel as if it is fairly tight however no system is perfect.

Thanks for your help
Tyler

[unc23win]

A 100 CFM pump has 35CFM on a 1 1/4" line at 100 feet, which is ample for about 1700 taps using 2cfm per 100 taps formula. So with one 1 1/4" line you should be fine to say the least as your pump is 150cfm. I would think that you would be able to get more than 24" given that your pump is rated for so many cfms. A lot of pumps max rating is for a closed system some are rated at 15" I'm not sure about sihi but I know you have more than enough pump for your current needs.

[BreezyHill]

Tyler,
I would use 1 cfm per 50 taps as you likely have a mechanical releaser. If it were a electric releaser then you could go with 100 taps per cfm and be safe. This is what I use. 2 seasons ago I had to use a backup pump and ran the system at 29" with about .8 cfm per 100 taps.

I like to build a system and not have to enlarge if I increase taps...plan for the future is cheaper than rebuilding in the future; but wasting $$$ on oversized apparatus is economically unsound and wasteful. These lines are plastic and they don't last forever...thrust me I had a line implode a few years back that was around 20 years old. Big mess in the sugar bush and still finding pieces around 4 years later.

So 500 current taps plus the 300 expansion would be 800. Divided by 50 gives you 16 cfm.

At 100' a 1" line will supply 20 cfm from a 60 cfm or larger pump and 28 cfm at 50'. So a 1" line will be adequate for what you have now and your potential expansion.

Since you are running a liquid ring the slope of the pipe is no issue except you want as much of the condensation that will form to run to the pump or back to the releaser. No flat spots is the best design. Flat spots will allow pooling of condensation and result in poor vac transfer to the tubing system and releaser.

I would also install a vac gauge at the pump, releaser and on the tubing system after the releaser to see how the system is working. If you had more than one line entering the releaser then I would have a gauge on each line after a valve to isolate the lines to check for leakage.

Great job finding those pumps! 24" is a good amount of vac if you can maintain it by keeping the system tight. The older milking pumps were rated for 15" as that was the desired vac level for milking a cow to provide the most animal comfort and longevity for the mammary system. To achieve this level of vacuum the system employees a vacuum control unit that is designed to allow enough air into the system to not surpass the desired 15" of vac. On a closed system you will find the maximum obtainable vacuum level that the pump can produce. Now days dairy farms are often milking at as low as 11-12" of vac for animal comfort and better longevity. These low readings are obtained with variable frequency drives to match the pump speed to maintain the desired vac reading.

I own a feed mill and my dad was a surge dealer...more than maple in my blood. lol

To maintain tension on the vac line I would install J hooks and use tension grips and High tensile fencing and a tightener. The end of the vac line at the pump can have a tail to connect to the pump to isolate vibration and eliminate elbows that rob vac transfer. A sweeping angle has no negative affect on transfer but a 90 degree elbow can reduce the rating by as much as 30%.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Ben

[TylerMcT]

Thanks for all the help I think I have my head wrapped around the concept much better now!! Where can I get my hands on Steve child's vacuum book ? I took a look but couldn't find much info on it.

Thanks again!

[maplemas]

Similar question I have 2 pumps available to use a 105 cfm 10 hp surge pump and a 26 cfm 2.5hp alamo .. i would like to put my reciever about 2000 feet from the pump and I would have a max 1100 taps on the receiver would 1 1\4. Be large enough and what pump would I be best to use ?

[BreezyHill]

Similar question I have 2 pumps available to use a 105 cfm 10 hp surge pump and a 26 cfm 2.5hp alamo .. i would like to put my reciever about 2000 feet from the pump and I would have a max 1100 taps on the receiver would 1 1\4. Be large enough and what pump would I be best to use ?

This is a different setup. The 10 Hp surge pump is the newer style rotary so a 2800 or maybe a 4300 model. Good pumps as is the Alamo but they are oil lubrication and will need a moisture trap.

1100 taps will need around 22 cfms on a mechanical releaser and a fairly tight system. If using electric releaser less and less if you are checking the system often for leaks.

2000 feet is the issue. The longer the distance the more frictional lose. So at 2000' a 1" line will only transfer 6 cfm. So you will need to go with a 2" line that will provide you with about 24 cfm. You could do 2 1.5" lines for 27 cfm but the cost will likely be more with this option.

options available would be to use an electric releaser to reduce your cfms needed and to do a great job of checking leaks to reduce cfms needed.

BUT. Last season I had some 5/16 tubing that was failing. It was pulling off of spouts and star fittings on ladders. Every day I was checking for leaks and finding several. I started the season at 29" of vac and after 3 runs was at 24"...on the worst day I got to the sugar house to see 21 on the gauge. I found 3 drops pulled off and I was back to 26". Repaired a ladder and was back to 28". I never got past 28" the rest of the season as I was unable to isolate 2 drops that were along a brook that was like a river from all the melting snow. Back side of trees on a steep bank were found when washing lines at end of season.

So having extra cfms in reserve is a great thing in the event that a leak goes undiscovered.

At that long of a distance a balance tank near the releaser will be beneficial also. The balance tank of equal or larger volume of the releaser will bring the releaser from 0" to your available vacuum level much quicker and reduce surges in your tubing system.

I see in your signature you are restarting next season. Over sizing a releaser at this distance will consume more cfms since the vessel is larger for more taps. If your planning to grow then over sizing is acceptable and is good. But if you are on a budget then you could over size the releaser and do a single 1.5" vac line and when you add the extra taps add the second vac line to the releaser.

As for the pump: surge pumps are great pumps, I have some myself; but their cfm rating is at 15-18". So when you go to 24" the rating is reduce quite a bit. Then to 27" is a derating of even more of a percentage than it was to go to 24". I would only use the 10hp pump since the Alamo is likely a small body Alamo, like a 45-55 model.
So I would be comfortable with the larger pump to get you your cfms at the 2000' at 22-24". Above that will take good leak maintance and an efficient releaser; so pipe dope your connections and double clamp fittings, isolation valves and gauges will help in locating and repairing leaks. Carry a roll of duct tape or leave one in a zip lock bag in the bush for temporary repairs. I like to do repairs in the morning before the sap starts running so that I am not opening the system and losing the vac.

Some have used 2" pvc at a cost savings over 2" mainline.

What is the reason to go the 2000' to the releaser from the pump?

Ben

[maplemas]

Thanks Ben
The reason for the distance is i would like to stay with electric for convenience. ..my day job keeps me away to many hours to tend to a gas motor. .
If I was to put the releaser at the sugar house (or near a power source ) I would have to pull all the sap up ladders about a total of 30 feet of elevation over the 2000 feet .. most of my woods sits at a 1% slope with the sugar house at the top .
The pump is the newer style 2800

[BreezyHill]

Personally I would do the ladders...and I do. 1200' from where the tank had been for years back up the grade through 7 ladders with a max of 18' and the shortest is 12' to the releaser and bank of collection tanks. I am on the road a lot also and it is far easier to have my wife, one of the three sons, or their girlfriends change a valve in the sugar house rather than jump in the truck and go get sap. 5 out of six drive the truck and it has a hyd driven pump that does 300 GPM on a 2" inlet and 30' of hose. But I don't have the time. Far easier to get home or the youngest gets out of school and goes to the sap house and fires up the RO and the evap and starts boiling. IN the time it would take to get a load to the sugarhouse we are boiling hard. End of last season I built a 1/2" riser ladder for the 1" mains and the first three have a wet dry system for the ladders. Let me know and I will send you pics if you want to go that route or to just see the option.

Never had a 2800 but everyone that has one wont part with it so I would say they must be good pumps.
Ben

[maplemas]

It would be a huge time savings if I could pull it all to the sugar house.
A wet dry line for ladders ? pictures would be great
Thanks again

[BreezyHill]

Wet/dry line is two conductors: typically a colored line for the sap & black for the vacuum transfer. My situation is unique as I have a brook that runs 100 feet from the sugar house. The cold air settles into the brook bed from +- 200 acres of fields and pastures and travels down the brook bed. Sap lines that are 15 feet over the brook freeze early...as much as 60 minutes before the bush freezes. So I hooked a dry line to the manifold pictured below and ran it about 60 feet over the brook bed and get more of the sap from the bush prior to freezing for the night. This as added after adding a dry line to the main ladder line in hopes of clearing more sap from those lines to get a quicker thaw in the am. Problem was that a colored line would not thaw as fast as a black mainline ( main), so I went with two black lines. Now I want to add a colored line to extend our season by having a line that will not absorb as much heat on the warm end of season days. Currently it will be one 500' roll plus a bit to get to ladder #3 where the wet dry ended last season. I plan to add the W/D line to ladder #5 to facilitate tapping expansion.

12121 This was a cool breezy day at BHF(Breezy Hill Farm). The new 1/2" risers were running very well even though the air temp was below freezing. Sap that was running down the tree from wounds from the J hook for the new manifold was freezing as it dripped from the tree. This occurred until dusk.

12122 This is the new ladder manifold I built last season. I found that 1/2" risers thawed faster and ran longer into the freezing temp time than did the 5/16 riser tubes. I had tried 1" risers and found they were very inefficient in lifting sap as were 3/4" risers. The larger risers need more air to elevate the sap efficiently and more sap would slide around the air bubble as it stuck to the sides of the riser making slippage. In the 1/2" riser slippage is nearly eliminated.


12123 This is the Dry Line manifold on the outside of the sugar house. It is 3" pvc to facilitate easy cleaning and is a balance tank for vacuum. Balance tank is a reservoir that will absorb surges of gas and sap to keep a constant "pull" on the mainline.

Ideally the sap will be on the bottom half of the mainline and tree gases, leaked air into the system, and injected air will travel across the top or the sap at higher speeds due to frictional affects. I find that in my mains this does not happen. I get small waves developing that will create small surges in the lines. During peak flow the small surges become long full line surges with small air pockets between.

If you enlarge the pic of my releaser you can see 1.5" ladder in the sugarhouse. I added this to study the sap flow better. Slippage is huge in this and the clear tube connected to it shows the surges and spikes of flow. I also have an injector of sorts there that I was able to duplicate the flow waves in the mainline to figure what was the cause.

My dad taught me there is a reason for everything. Find the reason and you can find a fix.

Many people say that ladders cant work but a dairy farm uses them every day to elevate milk from the cow to the milk line about 6' up. So dad built a star fitting ladder to suck the sap from a bulk tank below the sugar house...then the next day he eliminated the tank and hooked the lines to the ladder and it was pulling more sap than before.

The ladder manifold is 2" pvc and I will be making the new ones out of clear pvc so that I can see the flow in an effort/desire to make them as efficient as possible. I designed the inlets so that the sap would rush in and circle the sides so that gases would be removed from the sap stream on this ladder as the air is no longer needed. On ladder #2 + the air is needed to raise the sap up the next ladder.

On a standard W/D system you will have manifold or whips to remove all the gases/air from the wet line. In my system this happens at ladder #3 and again at #1. #2 is isolate with no connections and the injectors here are seldom used an more.

Air injectors are as simple as a 1/8" brass needle valve hooked to a Y in the 5/16 tubing to a mainline saddle, or into a 5/16 lateral. Generally they are opened to 1/4 turn and closed down to about 1/8 turn. The needle will not separate from the seat until 1/4 to 1/3 turn and then I adjust the air flow.
12124

More air is not better...you only want to lift the sap that is flowing to the ladder at peak flow and then let her go. Since peak flow increases as the season develops I like to not adjust the injectors unless there is a problem. Problems are usually pooling...this is when sap backs up behind the ladder in the main. This is caused by insufficient inject air for the flow of sap or by a loss of vacuum. Last season we lost vacuum when the power went out while I was checking for leaks...I was to far to see the sugar house or hear the vac pump running. Another time ladder #6 was vandalized with a shot gun blast. That took 2 days to discover the tiny little nicks in all 6 risers and the mainline had been blasted also toward the end of the season.

The only source I know of for the 1/2" blue line is 30P from leader. So keep your squirrel population in check.

I am sure you will have questions so just ask.

Last year a trader asked for copies of the pms that I sent to another r trader about ladders...he was missing vidal info and was having a problem. So ask away because others will have the same questions.

I will answer as son as I can but weekends are busy this time of year with indoor soccer, snow trail maintance, business, and life...shopping-wife-firewood...no time to hunt any more. LOL

Ben

[maplemas]

So if I was to run a 3000'mainline with 7 6' ladders and 8 400' 3/4 "lateral mains connecting to the main with a max total of 1100 taps in the future... hoping to pick up about 500 this year... what size main would you run ? Should i run multiple mains to the reciever ?
Thanks

[BreezyHill]

There are a few more factors that would be needed to calculate. What slope is the ground and slope of line feeding the ladder?

A sketch of the proposed layout would be helpful to be sure I am following your thoughts.

Ben

[maplemas]

12167
Slope runs 1-2% on lateral mains to proposed main line...with the use of ladders I would have 1-2 % slope on mainline coming back to the reciever

[GeneralStark]

Maplemas - Ladders will get you sap but there are other options you may want to consider if your goal is to maximize production. Just something to consider...

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Amen, General!

[maplemas]

Maplemas - Ladders will get you sap but there are other options you may want to consider if your goal is to maximize production. Just something to consider...

And what would they be ? ... maximum production comes at a price and time is limited to me ..I am up for any suggestions anyone has as this all new to me ..

[GeneralStark]

You will have to determine the best option for your situation but generally the most effective way to move sap uphill is by pumping it. You could pump from a tank, or use an electric releaser located at the lowest spot in your woods and pump to your sugarhouse. Without a sense of your available power resource or the lay of the land it is tough to say what would be best. I personally use an electric releaser in a heated space and run the vacuum pump 24/7 and pretty much never think about it. The pump capacity and size of pipe will depend upon your distance and height to pump.

Vacuum can also be used to lift sap with sap lifter tanks, reverse slope releasers, or other devices. Ladders will work but most see these as the last resort to pick up a few taps here or there. Putting ladders on your main sap conductors will inevitably reduce the overall capacity of your system. Each ladder adds friction essentially and the more friction, the less efficient a system will be. They also take more time to thaw and while the first ladder in your system is thawing the rest of the system is doing nothing.

The key is that water moves downhill and the less competition there is between air and sap in your tubing system, the more vac. you will get to the taphole which is where it matters the most.

You're going to have to do your research and make you own decisions. Consider all the options and talk to other producers. Read the studies and use all the resources you can find. Steve Childs and the Cornell extension are a great resource.

[BreezyHill]

Mark, this is just one of those that bashes technology that was unsuccessfully attempted. So it cant work any where.

Ladders are very good production tools used on many well managed farms for profitability of production, and good use of resources. Personnally 1/2 a gallon of syrup per tap with 70%+ thru ladders is not to bad, and that does not include any low quality production of commercial grade. We pull the taps when it goes below glass packaging quality. IF we did that we could boil another week or better and make another tenth or two of a gallon per tap.

Just like those that bash dairy pumps but will buy and brand new Delaval or airablo pump from a maple company and don't realize what they are buying. It's like the guy that says how great his truck is but doesn't haul the loads I have and do every time the truck leaves the yard, nor did he own a truck from ever one ton manufacturer. When you have run them all, you can make an informed decision on which will be the best for what you need from a truck.

I have personnaly had those satalitte tanks in the bush, along the road, across the field, etc, run gas powered pumps, rebuilt them on the side of the road when she wont run. OH ya and don't forget about the frozen pump, that had a little bit of sap drain back into it and it wont run til you thaw it. Been there done that for to many of my 40+years in maple production on our farm...no thank you! Give me a ladder & injector any day of the week. Sap to the sugar house is the way I like it.

And then lets talk cost; since that is a major part of profitable production equation. I can build a ladder of 12' on a 1" mainline and have the same vac reading prior to the ladder and after the ladder for $28 including all the parts and the injector. It can lift the sap as soon as the trees start to flow and until they stop flowing with my latest advancement. If I were to run pumps instead of all my ladder locations it would cost me over $6000 in equipment and wire and then you would have to factor in the electricity to run those pumps until the sap stopped flowing and each pump should be check to be certain that it drain, so it would not freeze and possible break.

So I cant wait to hear the answer to what you can build that is as inexpensive as a ladder, takes as little time to maintain as a well designed ladder and uses as much fuel or electricity as a ladder... or will increase production more than a ladder to make it as profitable as a ladder.

This will be an interesting thread.

[unc23win]

I agree with General. By the way General when you went to the huge installation near you was there any 5/16 spyder ladders installed? Seems to me they ran inverted lateral lines and simply ran 5/16 lifts one or two trees at a time, but did they have any ladders?

[maplemas]

I'm not new to agriculture, milked cows most of my life .. high production comes at a cost I've watched many high producing dairies lose it all well having top production ...I was the small guy that rotational grazed his spring herd and could make money at low prices.

Making syrup is a hobby for me and I cannot justify installing electricity in the woods and being a slave to a gas motor is not a option ..After spending days on this site reading post after post ladders make sense to me ..they will allow me to add vacuum which will increase production .. From what I've read my other options would be to run gravity to multiple locations ,hang buckets or not tap them at all ..

[GeneralStark]

I'm not bashing ladders. I have used them and likely will again in the future. My only point is that there are other options to consider out there, many of which do not require electricity, and many of which are very affordable.

It just seems like every time there is a thread even remotely related to moving sap uphill the conversation becomes completely dominated by one perspective and we all have to be subjected to a lesson.

I'm just trying to provide some other perspective. I also think it is pretty disingenuous to claim high yields with ladders in recent threads, while in past threads claim yields at considerably less than 1/2 gpt.

Maplemas - In your situation, considering that this is a hobby for you, perhaps ladders make good sense. Good luck with figuring out what works best for you. That is where the fun is! :)

[GeneralStark]

I agree with General. By the way General when you went to the huge installation near you was there any 5/16 spyder ladders installed? Seems to me they ran inverted lateral lines and simply ran 5/16 lifts one or two trees at a time, but did they have any ladders?

Jared - No they don't use ladders, but they have good slope. They do have a bunch of inverted lats. in some areas to pick up some extra taps.

[BreezyHill]

You will have to determine the best option for your situation but generally the most effective way to move sap uphill is by pumping it. You could pump from a tank, or use an electric releaser located at the lowest spot in your woods and pump to your sugarhouse. Without a sense of your available power resource or the lay of the land it is tough to say what would be best. I personally use an electric releaser in a heated space and run the vacuum pump 24/7 and pretty much never think about it.

Vacuum can also be used to lift sap with sap lifter tanks, reverse slope releasers, or other devices. Ladders will work but most see these as the last resort to pick up a few taps here or there. Putting ladders on your main sap conductors will inevitably reduce the overall capacity of your system. Each ladder adds friction essentially and the more friction, the less efficient a system will be. They also take more time to thaw and while the first ladder in your system is thawing the rest of the system is doing nothing.

Steve Childs and the Cornell extension are a great resource.


Finnally in the end a true statement. Steve's research is very compelling. With emphasis on his tubing washing data and research on tubing vacuum transfer.

Not every producer is going to need a ladder in his/her system; therefor you will not see one on evey operation. When there are producers talking like they have operated a ladder system and found it to be ineffective, why would someone utilize the technology?

It was like the traders that thought that a dairy pump could only produce 15" of vacuum; until I explained that the pumps could produce way more after the vacuum limiter/ regulator was removed.

It is obvious that you have limited knowledge of ladders and their functionality. I have first hand seen that vacuum does pass thru a frozen ladder. Not to the extent that it would through a none frozen line but since the trees are also frozen the fact that the system is still under vacuum keeps production elevated for the moment in time that the side walls of the ladder start to thaw and full capacity is regained.

Spyder ladders are only one form of a ladder, straight pipe ladders are another but if one is staying up with the current advancements in ladder tech you will have seen the increase in straight pipe ladders and manifolds. Sice a pic is worth a 1000 words...12174

Sunny afternoon with air temps at freezing as shown from the icecycle and the ladder is removing sap from the mainline to the sugarhouse from a warm section of the bush over 2000' away that has yet to freeze.

The last person that you want to tell that a ladder does not work is a dairy farmer. Every farm, even those that use a milking parlor with reverse slope milk releasers have a milk ladder. The lines to the claw have to go above the mammary system of the animal to meet code for cleanliness concerns. And in a flat barn or standard parlor the milk is often laddered up 6' to enter the stainless steel milk line. They work with ladders every day of the year and they work. If the farm has his roots in days gone by he/she also understands the amount of work it is to have collection tanks near the production location...these are called milk buckets or vacuum milkers. The farmer had to either walk these containers to the bulk tank for dumping into storage or Surge and Conde milking systems invented a dump station. These dump stations were used as a remote location to dump the milk into and open a valve to vacuum the milk to the milk room and into a releaser.

This is a concept that is used in maple production on a few bushes but is not talked about due to it is not as popular and requires hours of time spent to operate them...but it is an option that will work very well to increase some producers productivity.



IMO( In My Opinion) it is best to answer questions when you have an active working knowledge of the technology that the question is based in, than to forward information that is not current, accurate, or helpful in answering the question. For example I would never presume to answer a question on growing psychedelic mushrooms or pot as I have no knowledge of these agricultural practice. Even though I have extensive knowledge a practical experience on growing a litany of other agricultural plants and products.

IMO the most affective way to move sap uphill is adapting your production recovery system to meet your landscape and to utilize as little energy and equipment as one can. Producers of this time need to be as Green as possible and to disturb the environment as little as possible for the sake of the maple bush and from a marketing aspect as well. Running wires thru the bush, burying conduit, running gas motors in the bush, driving thru to carry fuel and supplies to remote motors, and driving more than is absolutely need is detrimental to the roots of our producers and the bush they live in. Seems to me that a ladder is far more Green and less destructive to the bush and will keep production higher in the long run.

Mark, My apologies for hijacking your thread but it is like being at the County Fair as a kid and you leave a nice juice flop in the middle of the aisle just to see who will step in it and how they react. LOL

Priceless!

[BreezyHill]

Jared - No they don't use ladders, but they have good slope. They do have a bunch of inverted lats. in some areas to pick up some extra taps.

Inverted lat. for those that do not know the term is a line running vertically...this is called a sap ladder by most producers. LOL

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck. LOL

[unc23win]

I'm not bashing ladders. It just seems like every time there is a thread even remotely related to moving sap uphill the conversation becomes completely dominated by one perspective and we all have to be subjected to a lesson.
I'm just trying to provide some other perspective. I also think it is pretty disingenuous to claim high yields with ladders in recent threads, while in past threads claim yields at considerably less than 1/2 gpt.

I have to say I totally agree with you General every single thread about moving sap up hill is dominated by one perspective. Ladders work this is true, but I would not design my entire system around them #1 reason if the I can't run vacuum no power no generator no sap. Where as if you avoid them and use an electric releaser at the lowest point and you have no power you'll still get sap on gravity. Precisely why my sugarhouse is at the lowest point of my property and I ran grid power to it.

[BreezyHill]

I have to say I totally agree with you General every single thread about moving sap up hill is dominated by one perspective. Ladders work this is true, but I would not design my entire system around them #1 reason if the I can't run vacuum no power no generator no sap. Where as if you avoid them and use an electric releaser at the lowest point and you have no power you'll still get sap on gravity. Precisely why my sugarhouse is at the lowest point of my property and I ran grid power to it.

I am confussed...no power no sap on a ladder but seems to me that an electric releaser will need to have power too???

Yes on the last two seasons with the sub zero cold right up to the start of the sap season and the first week after our first run we have had poor production when you look at the production on the total number of taps. But if you calculate the production on the taps that produced sap for the majority of the season we are way over 1/2 gallon per tap on those figures. I look at from actuality stand point. The production of syrup in containers divided by the total number of taps installed on the farm is what I quote when asked. Even though the sections of the bush that produced the most and were not stopped by the cold breeze where those that were below the ridge of the bush and were transported thru a minimum of 3 ladders and most thru 6 and 7 ladders. It is what I have to work with and I make it work for me.

I am sorry that you take, talk about ladders, as a lesson. But it as equally frustrating to those that utilize ladder technology, to hear that they don't work, are not used in maximum production systems, and the rest of the back lash that is forted.

Please realize that I am only sharing my personal experience and results of experimentation. I would thank all those that share results of experimentation; as these results provide lessons to us all. I for one am still a pupil and look forward to a lesson. "You can learn something new every day".

Seems to me pretty easy why the one perspective that is talked about more is ladders; is because as you elude to: they work, they are cost affective, and even the big places use them. You don't see the big place putting a pumping station to collect those few taps I assume.

Unfortunately not all producers have the ability or desire to locate their sap house at the bottom of the hill. If I were to do that, it would be in the Vermont part of the farm, commercial power rates, out of site of any houses and on road frontage. Since it would be in VT I could sell product thru different marketing for a plus but the negatives out weight the negatives. Not in the cards right now...someday yes. But I will still have to run ladders to get some of the sap over a ridge in the bush.

There is an old managerial stance: If it works...don't fix it.

We are talking about profitability, reliability, and not political correctness. If you want to be the Devils Advocate then fine but don't make disingenuous statements like "sure a ladder will make sap, but if you want to maximize production" when you feel slighted by what is talked more about. This is business, talk about profitability. And I for one don't care if a producer is a "Hobby", Small guy or big guy. We can all gain by the sharing of knowledge and results of what we have done in our operations.

[GeneralStark]

I agree that sharing knowledge is pretty much the point of this public forum. Preaching your own experience as the gospel and the only way to do it is not the point at all.

As for the rest of your post, sure whatever. Most producer's use the same methodology for describing their yield which is gpt. Or # of gallons produced/#of taps. If you have your own way of doing it that skews your actual production to make it look like you are producing more syrup per tap, good for you. However, suggesting that you are producing .5gpt through ladders is disingenuous.

[unc23win]

I am confussed...no power no sap on a ladder but seems to me that an electric releaser will need to have power too??? We can all gain by the sharing of knowledge and results of what we have done in our operations.

No if the releaser is at the lowest point and there is no power the sap will run on gravity where as relying on a sap ladders for an entire system with no vacuum very little sap.

I don't think you are good at sharing at all every time anyone wants to know about moving sap uphill you lecture us all about how you have been installing ladders for 40 years and they work. But it comes out piece by piece in your many posts that you now have developed line LIFTS with manifolds like you invented them because you think they work better than ladders.

You view the trader as your soapbox and feel the need to educate all of us all the time.

Come to think of it I don't think I have ever seen you post anything where you actually agreed with someone or made suggestions or given advice without putting the spin on it that you did it and because you did it is the best way and there is no other way. Example in another thread Joe J said he uses clamps on tension grips so they don't slip you said something like well I have never seen a grip fail that has been properly installed been using them for 40 years then you gave a smart *** thanks for the suggestion though. Now I don't know about you but that's not being receptive to others at all now is it.

[unc23win]

I agree that sharing knowledge is pretty much the point of this public forum. Preaching your own experience as the gospel and the only way to do it is not the point at all.

As for the rest of your post, sure whatever. Most producer's use the same methodology for describing their yield which is gpt. Or # of gallons produced/#of taps. If you have your own way of doing it that skews your actual production to make it look like you are producing more syrup per tap, good for you. However, suggesting that you are producing .5gpt through ladders is disingenuous.

Amen Amen Amen thank you General

[BreezyHill]

Mark from you diagram, It appears you will have 1600'+- to your first set of lats( laterals) and 2100' to the last of those three. I would add them together for ease sake and say 375 taps at 2100 feet and 2% slope on the mains.

From the charts you find at 2100' you have 5.4 cfm of transfer on a 1" line...adequate for 540 taps.

Between the releaser and this point you have 3 ladders and a forth prior to the last lat. I would install an injector about 30 feet back from ladders # 1-4 in the event that you need to use them. It is very likely that injectors 1& 2 will not be used. This is due to the bubbles the sap will ride on is already in the system from ladder #3. Now #3 will only need to be opened to a point that you get nice flow of the sap up the ladder and no pooling in the main past the ladder. Pooling is when sap floods the ladder's diameter. This is when you reduce vacuum transfer past the ladder.
I would suggest using the 1/2" risers over the 5/16 to eliminate the friction lose that can be associated with undersized spider ladders.

In the excel SS I sent you you will find that just more than 10- 5/16 will have the same volume as the 1" line, so you will want to use 2 6 way spiders if using spider. I attach all 12 risers when using spiders to maximize vac transfer and eliminate any frictional lose on a ladder by having more volume than the mainline.

From the diagram the next mains enter after ladder #4 at about 2300'. From the chart you see that you don't drop to 4 cfm until 3000' of mainline so you should have enough vac transfer to sustain up to 460 taps. It has been my experience, on my system that you can maintain 28" on over 743 taps with just over 5 cfm from the pump. This happened when my main pump went down and the standby pump was utilized.

The way that I would design this system is a single line system for the first season figuring you will not want to go all 1100 taps and would want to benefit from a wet/ dry system.

With two conductor lines the first would want to be blue for cooler sap at the end of the season unless you have shading issues of the line. Then use black to keep the sap warmer because a ladder drops the temp of the sap due to more surface area exposed to cool air. I have pics of my releaser with crystals in the sap from the ladder lines and the gravity lines were still crystal free. But since the ladder is moving more rapidly it does not freeze as fast as the gravity line.

The second line will become the wet line of the system on expansion to 1100 taps. This will need to 1.5" to conduct the majority of the sap to the releaser. You figure this by using the number of taps conducted by the 1" line at 1500' in to your 1100 tap count. This is result is then taken to my excel SS and you look at volume of a 1.5 to the 1" line and find it to be a few 100ths off. So a small amount of sap will be expected to be in the dry line during the time of peak sap flow. The rest of the time the line will be dry.

When I adjust a ladder's injector is at peak flow. This way the most air needed is in the system. I will post later a pic of the cfm tester so you can see the size of a 2 cfm opening so that you can amagine how tiny the amount of air inject into a ladder actual is. I used a micrometer to estimate how much mine is because my meter would not register the leak that small.

The other factor is that on some systems you do not need to inject any air as the system already has sufficient gases from the trees and incidental leaks in the tubing.

A leak on a ladder system prior to the ladder is easy to find during peak flow. The risers will be going so fast that you cant see the sap rising very well. Last season I found this issue and knew there was an issue due to my vac gauge was a little off. So off I went to the bush. Ladder #1 was a rocket sled on rails, as was #2 but #3 was just fine. Upon check the lines into#2 I found a drop had come off of a spout by the brook. The water in the brook was so high I was unable to hear the leak but knew where to look. Someday I am going to buy one of those leak detectors. Small leaks wil increase the ladders speed just not as much.

When reading the tap count and cfm chart don't get confused that you need all 11 cfm at the end of the 3000 feet of tubing. You need the cfms at the point that the taps are entering the system with a small reserve at the farthest point of your tubing system.

Mark, remember that there are many current and future readers of this thread. So if there is something I didn't explain well or you have a question do ask; because others will have the same question. I try to explain myself thoroughly and this may be why some feel I am giving a lesson.

Ben

[BreezyHill]

I agree that sharing knowledge is pretty much the point of this public forum. Preaching your own experience as the gospel and the only way to do it is not the point at all.

As for the rest of your post, sure whatever. Most producer's use the same methodology for describing their yield which is gpt. Or # of gallons produced/#of taps. If you have your own way of doing it that skews your actual production to make it look like you are producing more syrup per tap, good for you. However, suggesting that you are producing .5gpt through ladders is disingenuous.

Not sure why you feel I am preaching when I am answering a persons question in a full fashion.

So is it disingenuous when a car manufacturer lists highway and city mileage in your point of view?

I do not production is production...take a dairy farm you have a rolling herd average, high group average, low group average and individual production records. When a farm has a high group average production of 90# it is not uncommon for individual cows to produce 120#+ in early lactation. This in no way skews the information of the farms production results of different groups.

I guess you are just looking for a response that is short and lacking causative information. But I guess that is why your comment of" No they use inverted lines", is not disingenuous. I would think a genuine answer would have been: Yes, but only to gather a few trees.

Jared, I cant agree with something that is false, it is against my morality. If you search out all of my posts as you imply you have, you will see that I have often agreed with traders on several different threads and not all threads will I log into to just to agree with something that another has said. Seems to me if it is said well it does not need another to support it. The information is supplied and the trader was helped

Not sure why you seem to be stalking me looking at all my posts... but to each his own.

Good Day guys, got to get off the key board, the word is still spinning.

[maplemas]

Ok so if I was to run 1 1/4 from the releaser out 2000 feet and have about 2500 ft total of 3/4 teeing in to that.. I should have no problem handling 500 taps ? And on a 1.25 pipe ladder it would take 5 1/2 riser pipes ? Or 16 5/16 risers ? I think I finally have got this down ...:)
Thanks Mark

[unc23win]

Not sure why you seem to be stalking me looking at all my posts... but to each his own.

I'm not stalking you when someone posts as much as you all I have to do is read and remember. I should have said that you agree with someone so seldom that I can't recall one post where you did.

Oh and by the way I thought this forum was about Maple and not the production of dairy farms or the economy of cars? Is that pertinent information?

[BreezyHill]

:lol:

I guess you have never heard of an analogue or what the first farming method or practice to use vacuum was...let me help you that, its dairy.

Bet you also didn't know that vacuum is now used in greenhouses, genetics of livestock, crop farming, just to name a few.

Vacuum is far more common than many realize in todays Agricultural World.

[BreezyHill]

Ok so if I was to run 1 1/4 from the releaser out 2000 feet and have about 2500 ft total of 3/4 teeing in to that.. I should have no problem handling 500 taps ? And on a 1.25 pipe ladder it would take 5 1/2 riser pipes ? Or 16 5/16 risers ? I think I finally have got this down ...:)
Thanks Mark

Very good except that would be 6 1/2" risers for the ladder...line 6 column K of the spread sheet.

You are welcome.
Ben

[unc23win]

:lol:Bet you also didn't know that vacuum is now used in greenhouses, genetics of livestock, crop farming, just to name a few. Vacuum is far more common than many realize in todays Agricultural World.

Right you are the only one that knows all the uses of vacuum I just come on the trader to get lectured by you. By the way none of those uses have anything to do with maple.

[noreast maple]

I dont know about the majority of traders on here , but I for one am getting sick and tired of all the childish bantering back and fourth. Its just plain jelousy and stupid!!!! First crown royal now you and breezy. both of you are knollageable in your own way. you know alot about vac ,but so does breezy, he is good with ladders , you are good with other aspects of vac. If youre so jellous of him chimeing in than tell the people that are asking for a cheap way to get sap over ahill all about what you know about ladders. then explain that there are more expensive ways also. I admit that i get lost in some of breezys explainations but you have to admit he does know ladders. maple flats comments on alot of post on here too and are sometimes very long but I dont se you guys bashing him. sugaring is just around the corner so lets stop bickering and try to help each other be the best we can bewith which ever setup . love reading all of theese post and have pick up some good info on here, but if I were a newbie and asked something and the first thing I see was this bickering, I would probably think you guys were kids and turn to other site for info. SORRY just tired of seeing it on here, I Personly dont care who is smarter than who as long as when someone needs help that they get a good information. I probably just got on everyons hate list and im sorry but this is retarded , JUST SAYING. Ialso know that alot of you know about ladders to ,dont take what i said all wroug and blow it up

[BreezyHill]

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln

"I don\'t think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday" Abraham Lincoln

"If a man empties his purse into his head, no one can take it from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." Benjamin Franklin

"Sharing knowledge is not about giving people something, or getting something from them. Sharing knowledge occurs when people are genuinely interested in helping one another develop"
Peter Senge

"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; an argument an exchange of ignorance." Robert Quillen

Amen Noreast

[GeneralStark]

I hear what you are saying Noreast, and while I do agree to some degree I think that this is generally what you get on a public internet forum that is primarily self-moderated. Any one can join and contribute, and if they feel the need to use the forum as their personal soap box, and then make any claims they feel to be true without supporting them, it generally goes without any push back. This is not a new phenomena here and is why a large number of contributors have left and moved elsewhere. It also leads to a great deal of confusing and disorganized threads that litter the great halls of the Trader and make it difficult to search (which is what all members should do before starting a thread).

I frequent quite a few other online forums related to a wide range of topics and many are much more closely moderated to reduce the excessive waste of bandwidth that can occur. For instance, many employ specific rules, with one of the most basic being stay on topic and respect the OP's (original poster) intents with the thread. It is generally then seen as the op's responsibility to keep the thread on task.

Many forums also utilize "stickies" or permanent threads that provide some basic guidelines for posting, and can also be used for hosting specific info. about recurring topics. Sap ladders could be a good example of a recurring topic here on the Trader. Crown Maple could be another.

If a newbie does show up and and start a new thread, they can then easily and kindly be redirected to the sticky, or to an already existing thread on the topic.

Additionally, let's face it; internet forums have become a place for people to discuss and vent on a variety of topics. They can be very useful as we all have found here. They can also however turn into places that can easily be redirected for one's own agendas and beliefs. It is up to the community members to prevent this. If people are posting misleading or incorrect information, we all have the right to question it in a respectful manner. There is nothing wrong with asking someone to support their beliefs. Just believing something to be true does not make it factually correct.

[noreast maple]

Agreed.Didnt mean to offend anyone ,I learn from all .

[TylerMcT]

Breezy
I have two questions about the manifold. In the picture attached I circled and numbered them for easy reference. If you could clearifiy what they are for that would be great thanks!
12201

[BreezyHill]

This pic was taken as it was going up. The insert that is there was an experiment to see if four as the math says would be enough or if a fifth should be used. As usuall the math prevailed. This one was hooked up that day and the riser was capped to seal it after I noticed the system worked best with 4 risers after a few runs and experiments.

The blue tube was installed to plug where the dry line will be installed for this season. Last season a temporary dry line was added.

The black will be the dry line and a new blue line will carry the sap.

The installation was done on an emergency situation when am experiment with a check valve on a 1" riser on the line failed with the valve shattering. I had the manifold ready to go in a few days prior and found the valve had shattered upon returning home from deliveries so I quick install was done to keep sap flowing.

You are welcome!

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Interesting, how many taps on this one?