On pump sizes, transfer diameters, distances, and calculations

[mudr]

Everyone,
After asking a few questions on moving sap in a previous thread, I finally sat down to try to calculate the numbers. I have some predicted flow rates, I'm wondering if some of you can validate some of the results based on your experiences. I will give you my situation below.

I want to pump sap out of the woods rather than drive across the soft field (typically fall plowed, a few damp spots). The total distance is just a hair shy of 1000 ft (we will call it 1000). The full length of that is one hill, with the peak at about 500 ft from the woods (estimated a bit high, may be 400), with a liberal elevation gain estimate of 20 ft (may be 17). I estimated a bit high on all these to over estimate friction and head losses, hedging my bets if you will.

Remembering my internship time at USDA/NRCS, I looked to see what kind of pre made calculation sheets are out there. I used the excel file called "pump sizing" in the link below.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjy_sKU3rDJAhVGzWMKHfOSA44QFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrcs.usda.gov%2FInternet%2FFS E_DOCUMENTS%2Fnrcs142p2_024468.xls&usg=AFQjCNE8ljZ9UMyWNxVfjfvoFaUI2eOXLw&sig2=nm2GBFGTM_FHwuvVp-3vPg

For my inputs I used:
-0 and 20 ft for low and high elevations
-500 ft for distance (after that, it's downhill and shouldn't affect the flow much, right?)
-1.0 equivalent ft for pipe fittings (a couple couplers but no Ys, Ts, or elbows)
-Varied the pipe diameter from 1.0, 1.25, and 1.5 inches
-Roughness coefficient of 150 (see chart)

After that, I pulled up the pump curves for the two pumps I'm interested in, the WX10 and WX15 from Honda. I visually inspected their curves, found some points on the graphs and got the respective GPM vs Head values, and entered those in the table for "Pump curve". I did this for about 4 to 5 points. Using the pump curve data along with the distance/friction/elevation data of the system, it created a graph with two lines, the "pump" and "system" curves. As I understand it, the intersection of those two is what the predicted flow rate will be. I will give you some of my results.


Pump.....1.0inch......1.25 inch.....1.5 inch
WX10.........11 gpm.........19..............23
WX15.........17..............27..............40


Those of you running these kinds of systems, do these values match up with what you get? If these values are representative, I can see myself going one of two ways

1- Run the WX15 and 1.25 inch line. It will definitely handle the 100 taps I will be at with room to spare. However, I will always have to carry it that 1000 ft...
2- Run the WX10 with 1.25 line. It will be fine for now, and easier to carry. When I expand in a few years and start pushing 150-200 taps, get a 2 inch pump, the kind with the built in roll-cage, leave it chained to a tree in the woods. I would have a better pumping capacity, not have to carry a pump, and can keep the WX10 at the sugarhouse.

Dang. I need to stop writing lengthy posts/questions.

[Big_Eddy]

Do your calculations based on 1000' feet of pipe but set the elevation gain (loss) to the outlet, not the hill top. The pipe friction losses are based on the total length and can't be ignored on the down slope.
The elevation gain going up can be ignored, as you "recover" it on the down slope. i.e. you fight gravity up and over, then gravity helps you on the down slope. As long as the highest point doesn't exceed the pump head (20' is nothing) then it equals out.

Remember - you have 1000' feet of pipe that you will need to fill with (and empty of) sap. If your end point is lower (by several feet) than your start, then the pipe may self drain (siphon over the hill) once you run out of sap. If it is higher, then 1000 pipe feet of sap will flow back to the pump once you shut it off. Whatever you do - don't install a foot valve to prevent backflow unless you want a frozen line.

[mudr]

Than you. One question though, I still need to fight that hill to begin with. I though you needed to look at the max elevation gain. I do see what you are saying with the full length.

[maple flats]

As Big_Eddy said, as long as the pump head exceeds the rise at the 400-500' mark (where ever that high point is) as long as the drop after exceeds the 17 or 20' you stated, all you have is line friction. I can see you getting to far more than 200 taps on the WX10 pump before having to upsize. In fact, what is the stated lift on that pump? if it is 3 or 4' greater than the rise you have, you may be able to pull from the bottom if the pump is rated to self prime. I do just that on my 850' TF line, but it definitely flows faster when I push rather than pull. If you are pulling to the sugarhouse or a convenient loading point, that may not be a big issue. For comparison, I can pull 560 gal in 50 minutes or push it in 35 minutes, but because of the terrain it takes me 15 minutes to pull the pump up in on a "jet Sled", if I am on snowshoes, and then it takes me 10 minutes back out. Generally, I start the pump from the bottom, then walk in carrying gas for my vacuum pump (that's about 5 min. faster than pulling the "Jet Sled" with pump, fuel that, check vacuum level, make a quick check for big leaks and then rush back out before the 560 gals are pumped full.

[mudr]

it looks like ebay made up my mind on pump. There is a seller selling wx10s,had 4 of them. New, shipping from china. Buy it now price $40, with $50 shipping. Something deep inside me says something is wrong, or at least these suckers fell off the back of the truck. But I pulled the trigger. Stay tuned.

The wx10 can suck,but as I understand it, it is slower. When sucking, does it drain the barrel more? I will be collecting buckets/sacks in to a 55 gallon barrel, with a transfer line out. Depending on line diameter, I will have 15-20 gallons of sap left in the line if I pump out. Will sucking pull more sap, leaving less behind?

[mellondome]

1000' from the tank to the sugarhouse?I would run an electric wire with the pipe and put a submersible pump in the tank... no more lugging the pump and running out of gas (lugging the gas can)

[mudr]

1000 ft from lane to woods (want to pump the sap across the field,it tends to get very soft, often fall plowed). The lane way is 1/2 mile from the sugarhouse (aka my lawn).

[Ryan Mahar]

We love using the submersible pumps. Nothing like pulling up the truck and just hitting the switch to have the sap head into the truck tank! And no annoying gas engine running for 1/2 hour! But our tanks and pumps are no more than 200' away...

[VT_K9]

Last year we went through some complex calculations, thinking, and a punt to end up with a Honda WH15 pump. Check out the pump calculator on the Honda website. Moving water through a hose is a science, but one which can be calcuated.

Our requirements were to efficiently empty a 580 gallon tank in the woods at the lowest point of our property. We needed to move sap about 750 feet in distance with an 80 foot rise.

Calculations included varies diameters and using difference sized pipe on each pump. Hours later the WH15 seemed to have the most efficient results. Any smaller was about 10 gallons less and any bigger was about 10 gallons less. The pump select gave us an estimate of 24 gallons or so per minute, about 10 minutes to move the tank. We also calcuated about 70 gallons left in the pipe once the tank was empty.

We used 1.5" black poly for the run and 1.5" for suction. We bought the pump in October and it was not bench tested by the dealer due to the time it would sit unused. Fired it up the first time. We were filling a 5 gallon pail in about 36 seconds. NOT GOOD. I understand the pump select is an estimate, but that was less than 50% of the estimate. I would have handled 20 or more. The pump had an adjustment feature which increased the pump output, but that is too easy and with my luck I woud ruin the pump. Took the pump to the dealer for a bench test and found it was running 100% of it's capacity. I fixed a minor leak on the intake side (a threaded fitting needs a couple more turns). The pump was not pushing about 25-26 gallons per minute. We start the pump, run it for 10 minutes, and find the 260 gallon tank in the sugar house is about 1/2" from the edge.

Look at the WH15 pump and I am sure you will be happy. We are.

Mike

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I have a Honda WX15 and is a great pump. I had same issue it was sucking a little air on intake side. Has to be good and tight. Mine has a female 1.5" camlock right on pump male threaded outlet. Do love the 4 cycle and so much quieter too.

[VT_K9]

I use camlocks on both sides so I can drain the pump, the tank, and pump lines. The camlocks have been great.

[maple flats]

Did the "China" pumps arrive yet? My guess is that they are not Hondas, but are Honda Knock offs? China is good at getting a sample of anything that works good and reverse engineering it. I have a Chinese pump but not a Honda clone. I have found that China makes the pump cases far thinner than any good pump does. Be careful, do not put any stress on the line into or out of the pump or the vibration will soon render it useless. The pump face will crack. I did however find a quick fix, I applied some 3M tape (real shinny, metalic?) over the crack. Then I ordered a new pump head. The tape has been on there 1 1/2 seasons and is still holding. I don't recall what they callewd the tape, it was not duct tape. My wife actually suggested it and I thought it would never work, but she was right, it did.

[mudr]

Did the "China" pumps arrive yet? My guess is that they are not Hondas, but are Honda Knock offs? China is good at getting a sample of anything that works good and reverse engineering it. I have a Chinese pump but not a Honda clone. I have found that China makes the pump cases far thinner than any good pump does. Be careful, do not put any stress on the line into or out of the pump or the vibration will soon render it useless. The pump face will crack. I did however find a quick fix, I applied some 3M tape (real shinny, metalic?) over the crack. Then I ordered a new pump head. The tape has been on there 1 1/2 seasons and is still holding. I don't recall what they callewd the tape, it was not duct tape. My wife actually suggested it and I thought it would never work, but she was right, it did.

It has not arrived yet, it was shipped "overseas economy". The arrival date estimate was/is dec 21-Jan 17th.

I'm well aware of the possibility of it being a knock off. That said, I'm not too worried. Worst case scenario I have a $90, reverse engineered Honda. Best case scenario, I have a $90 wx10. The description made me feel somewhat confident it is the real thing. It specifically said it is a honda gx motor, used various honda part numbers. It has all the same honda wx10 specs listed in the description. Could it still be a knock off, sure, but that would be pretty ballsy to use exact honda part and model numbers in the description of a knock-off sale. And if they did, I can file a claim with ebay and maybe get my money back.

I'm eagerly awaiting the pump. UPS goes by my house around 5 pm. I feel like a kid waiting for that truck (assuming it is ups, I didn't get a tracking #)

[WESTMAPLES]

not to add salt to the potential wound, but my buddy greg that used to buy and sell alot on ebay got caught up in a deal like yours, it said it was a generator that had a honda engine with lots of honda pics and spec...... when it arrived it was harbor freight quality with a clone yamaha engine which are terrible. he got his money back but had to pay return shipping dealing thru ebay. but i hope you get something thats decent that outlasts your needs till you outgrow it. good luck and happy sap pumping (it saves the back)

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I noticed seller had 0 feedback so I thought it was fraud or stolen or I would have bought one. When it seems to good to be true in EBay it usually is from being a member there for 15 years