Open drop lines

[madmapler]

This spring I tried leaving my drop lines hanging unplugged and I'm pretty happy with what I'm seeing so far. Theres been very little visible crud, in fact, I really haven't seen any yet although I've only visited about half my woods. I'm only talking about my laterals. I can't see in the mainline. Does anyone else do this? If so, why or why not?

[JoeJ]

I started a thread last August (Unplugged Drop Lines) on this subject. I had myself convinced to leave the drops hanging open in 2015, but then this spring when I pulled taps I chickened out. That was a bad decision on my part. I have been using Lapierre and CDL semi rigid tubing for drops for the past 6 seasons. For some reason during the past 3 seasons, even using the same vacuum the sap out of the drops method, I have had more mold/crud in the drops than ever before. I don't know if it is soft tubing that is allowing the mold/crud to grow or what. It was pretty discouraging to replace 1,000 drops that were 5 years old and then have probably 10-15% of these new drops have a bunch of mold in them this summer. In my newer woods that is 2 seasons old with 2,100 taps, I probably have the same percentage of bad drops. I plan on replacing these bad drops next month.

I talked to a friend down the road from my sugar house about leaving the drops hanging and he thought it was a good idea. Results, clean, dry drop lines and out of 14,000 taps, I don't think that they have found any with bugs in them. I made the mistake of telling him that I had mold in a bunch of my drops and he just kind of rubbed in the fact that he had taken my advice and now has 14,000 clean drop lines.

Next spring I will let the drop lines hang open.

Joe

[madmapler]

I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep doing it unless someone knows why I shouldn't.

[unc23win]

I have noticed that some of drops new last year along my driveway that are plugged have mold and also that some unplugged in the same area appear clear. I know concern with unplugged drops is that they might get insects or dirt in them and that very well might happen, but probably less of chance of that than mold. Having spots in new tubing does make one wonder what the cause is, I tend to wonder that maybe its caused by what the tubing is exposed to between manufacturing and installation. It wouldn't take much to plug the ends as it is manufactured after all water pipe comes that way.

[BreezyHill]

Just because you cant see the bacteria does not mean it is not there.

Studies are rather conclusive that sanitized lines and new will produce the most sap.

A line open for all the bacteria to enter will likely produce less sap.

Personally I am a line washer. My drops are hanging down full of peroxide solution with a plug in the spout. At tapping each spout is clipped off and new one installed.

IMO it is all the little things that help to elevate production levels. The more you strive for optimum standards the higher your production level will be.

Not having the black crud is a plus. Not having much of anything is even better.


Ben

[Wanabe1972]

I pulled a 5% mix of bleach and water through my lines with vacuum this spring and let them hang for a few days to dry. I had full intention to go back and plug them all in a few days but never did. I was in the bush last week and my lines look the best they have ever looked pre season.

[JoeJ]

Ben,
I can't disagree with you that clean drops will produce more sap. However,I have not washed my lines since 2006 and I achieved some pretty good result after that year. I did not see very much of the mold/crud until 2 years ago and I am now trying to find a reason for it.
My results with no washing and no mold were: 2007 .45 gal syrup per tap (4 year old drops)
2008 .48 gal syrup per tap (5 year old drops)
2009 .59 gal syrup per tap (new drops)
2010 .50 gal syrup per tap
2011 .48 gal syrup per tap
2012 weather disaster
2013 .516 gal syrup tap (4 year old drops)
2014 .376 gal syrup per tap (5 year old drops) the start of seeing a lot mold
2015 .312 gal syrup per tap new drops 10-15% of drops with serious mold/crud. Can't figure it out
So I guess that I will definitely let the drops hang as an alternative to losing 10-15% of my drops to the mold.

Joe

[spud]

JoeJ- What spouts did you use from 2008-2015? I wish I could get the production you get. I left 6000 of my drops hanging this year. Those 6000 have CV2 spouts.

Spud

[BreezyHill]

Joe if you look at your numbers you are seeing a rather marked downward slope in your production curve as the drops age. The first time you put in new drops that was nearly a 23% increase. The current year 4-5 drop was over 27% and year 5-6 drop was 17%. All of the change can not be directly associated with the age of the drop but I would be changing my drops atleast to try and get back to those great numbers of 1/2 gallon per tap of syrup.

You are totally valid to be concerned, but I would do more than just let the drops hang since the mold has contaminated your main as well.

The only time I find mold in my lines is end of season where there has been squirrel damage. But after the summer the lines are still clean after they have been washed.

dried lines will still have sugar residue and moisture to get the growth growing. I can recall many seasons ago dad bought a tubing washer to attack a mold issue. It corrected the problem but was a PITA. I would bet that if you filled some of those drops now with peroxide solution with a hand pump sprayer, let them hang plugged and soaking til spring you would be amazed. My 17 yr old son is really good at it and can do about 200 drops per hour. Next season he is going to use a back pack sprayer and he figures he can do around 300 per hour with is girl to help him. I am willing to bet they don't go faster as there will be time spent ...not washing lines. lol

Good Luck!
Ben

[JoeJ]

I looked up some spout info for Spud and in doing that found some interesting comparisons in the chart that I made up for both Spud and Ben. I think that the most significant point over the eight year period is the complete control that Mother Nature has over everything we do as sugar makers. My best years production in 2009 was probably helped by the new drops, but more important, helped by good sugaring weather. I am not an early tapper with my earliest start date being Feb 24 and the latest being Mar 16 with an average start of Mar 1, so I am not adding in January or early Feb syrup. I always boil my sap the day it runs as long as there is more than 400-500 gal. So the number of boil days might be off by one or two a year. In the chart, the main woods have about 350 taps with a South aspect, first to run and the North West woods obviously face north west with about 160 taps, are cold, the last to start running and last to run at the end of the season. The CS spout in the chart is simple straight Lapierre acrylic 5/16 spout and the CV is the Leader 5/16 check valve adapter.

08.......... 09........10........11........12.........13....... ..14........15
22.51.....32.12....31.25....25.34....13.27.....28. 84....13.04.....16.71 main woods gal er tap
CS.........CS........CV........CV........CS....... ..CS........CS........CS spout type
24.86.....42.86....35.15....25.74.....10........27 .67.....13.01.....11.53 north west gal per tap
CS.........CS........CS........CS........CS....... ..CS........CS........CS spout type

29.........32........23........23.........12...... ...23.........19........17 number of boils

I used the CV spouts on the main woods for 2 seasons and stop using them after that due to finding 10-15% of them with the ball stuck open and 10% stuck shut. I boiled the same number of times in 2010 and in 2011 with a 20% less production in 2011. No more CV's. If you look at 2011 with CV's and 2013 main woods with CS on 23 boils, 2013 now has 4 year old drops, and 14% more sap. Then you look at 2013 compared with 2015 and with 17 boils, new drops, 30% less boils and 58% less sap, best vacuum yet (26.5 -27), highest sugar content 14 years. The weather was not cooperating with sap running, but helped with sugar content.

So Spud, I am staying with the Clear Straights. For me, in the warm Champlain valley, it seems that the weather variations effect my production more than the type of spout.(and the Clear straight don't plug)

And Ben, I don't know about the peroxide solution. We have had weird weather for 3 out of the last 4 seasons so, I think that I will do next season as I had planned to try this season and let the drops hang. Maybe El Nino will change everything.

Joe

[spud]

Thanks for the info JoeJ. So based on the numbers it appears changing drops after year 5 is the right thing to do. I have two sections to my woods My drops range from 1-4 years old. I have my older section that has 4 year old drops going into one tank and the other section has 3000 taps that are one year old and 1700 taps that are 3 years old. These run on a different pump and releaser and it goes into a different tank. Last season there was only a small difference in GPT from the two sections. I did have a big pin hole problem (CV2 spouts) in the older section that killed my vacuum. Because of this its hard to say what I would have gotten from the older section. This coming season my whole woods will be tapped with CDL White Max Flow spouts. I look forward to seeing how the two sections will do on different age drops. Thank you for the great info you always provide to all us Traders. I always enjoy reading your post.

Spud

[n8hutch]

Joe J, I noticed from your Data that your cold woods, North West facing out produced your south facing woods the first 4 years of your data. Any ideas why? Snow pack maybe? I always look for South facing woods so I find that an interesting statistic.

[JoeJ]

n8hutch,

The North West woods in my chart is a narrow strip of land between 100' and 250' wide over 1200' long on my far boundary. The bulk of the trees are on a 50' wide strip of land at the bottom of very, very, steep hill that rises as high as 80' above the trees at the bottom. So the late start of these trees is a result of shading and aspect. These cold trees did not produce very good the last 2 season because of the very cold March weather. While the other sections of my woods started to run, this cold section did not donate anything for several days. We usually don't get a lot of snow pack in my Town.

Joe

[GeneralStark]

JoeJ - One thing I am curious about related to your mold in drops issue is timing of pulling spouts and plugging drops. It seems that you pull spouts with the vac. on to remove as much sap as possible and then plug the drop. Is this correct?

This is generally what I do though I do also rinse each drop and lateral with a 50/50 water/vinegar solution as I am pulling taps to try to remove as much scum from the tubing as possible. I have very little mold growth in my drops and a little here and there in mainlines where there are sags. It doesn't really bother me and I see no point in getting more serious about washing the tubing. Your data alone certainly suggests washing does not help production.

Anyway, what I have observed is I get the most mold/crud growing at the end of the season, when it is warm and sunny in the woods after I have shut off the vacuum for the season. This is most pronounced in the spouts and upper end of the drop. Much of it comes out with the spout being cut off and the rinsing.

What I am wondering in your situation, especially with being in the warmer Champlain Valley like myself, if your mold growth issue is related to the timing of pulling your spouts. It looks like you have added taps so with the added time it takes to pull spouts and plug drops, is this giving the mold a better chance to get established?

Letting the drop hang will allow the remaining sap to drain out and then dry, which means less of a medium for mold growth so if it is getting established, it will likely not continue to grow if the drop dries.

Microbes need food, moisture, and the right conditions and a plugged moist drop with some residual sap on a warm sunny day is just about perfect for them.

The issue I have run into with leaving drops hanging is with insects and especially mud wasps plugging the drop. It is not widespread, but it does happen and generally necessitates a new drop.

[DrTimPerkins]

I looked up some spout info for Spud and in doing that found some interesting comparisons in the chart that...

Hi Joe,

It is always interesting to see producer data. It can be hard to interpret without knowing all the facts (like when droplines were changed, what the vacuum levels were in the various sections for each year, etc.). However a couple of things jumped out at me.

Most of the time people talk about having a cold bush or a warm bush, and that one will often out-produce another except in unusual years. If you compare the production of your MAIN and NW bushes, you find that for the first several years your NW bush did better compared to the MAIN bush, but then it switches and your MAIN bush is doing better compared to the NW bush. Either something about your operation (tubing, sanitation, vacuum levels, number of trees) changed pretty significantly, or this represents a very high natural variation in production. As you know, and as I've described in other posts, low and stable variation is what is needed to make valid comparisons. If your variation is changing strongly, it is difficult to assess what is responsible for those changes.

12102

Secondly, since we're in the same general neck of the woods, if all things were equal, you would expect that we would see similar trends in our production over time (since we're subject to the same general weather patterns). To do that I graphed out the production in your two bushes with the production for PMRC overall.

12103

In looking at that, it appears that you had sap yields as high or higher relative to PMRC for the first 4 years. Since that time, your overall production rates have been lower than PMRC. Again, something is clearly different. What is interesting perhaps is that we've been using CV adapters or spouts for 50-90% of our production since they've come out. You can see that our production rates are really fairly stable (the line is fairly flat across), which is exactly what we would expect using high vacuum and very good sanitation (in our case, mainly CVs), whereas yours are dropping. The one exception for you is 2013, but it was almost impossible for anyone in this area to NOT make a lot of syrup that year.

The other thing of note comes from looking at your signature. It appears that you've expanded tremendously in the last two years. One would think with NEW drops on a newly installed system that your production would be extremely high, but 2014 and 2015 don't appear to have been overly good years for you compared to us, which is even more odd given that we have some technical issues with our vacuum systems in those years (no, it wasn't leaking CV spouts).

So overall I guess I think your data is interesting, but given the high site-site variation from year-to-year that you have, I don't think one can conclude much of anything from these data. What would be more concerning to me from these data is why is your production seems to be dropping off so much the last several years (with the exception of 2013) relative to PMRC. We're not doing anything particularly different than we've done all along. Our yields are very stable over a long period of time, even 2012 wasn't especially devastating for us, but your yields are dropping off, even with a lot of new drops being added.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Looking at the chart the delta seems to be 2014 and 2015. Both years were late springs here (March 28 first boil in 2014 and the 17th in 2015). Area producers at a lower elevation seemed to do better those years and I think this is due to them getting earlier runs that we didn't get. We normally would get later runs to equal things out but the trees budded and the syrup wouldn't go through the press (we were using CV's and they didn't dry out). I wonder if something similar could be in play in your NW bush?

[BAP]

One thing that jumps out to me from your data Joel, is your increase in number of taps as Dr Perkins pointed out. However, you haven't said wether that increase in number of taps also had a corrisponding increase in your vacuum system. Did you add more vaccum to your system to compensate for increased amount of lines? Are you getting the same amount of vacuum to the end of your lines as you were when you started using vacuum? Granted I feel that clean tubing is something that is overlooked by too many in the maple industry, but there may be other factors at play here causing the decreas yields. It is very hard to compare data from 2 sugar makers in the same general area, because on days that one has a run the other may not. That can cause large differences in yield some years. A few feet difference in elavation or a few degrees difference in direction your orchard faces can cause huge differences come the end of the season.

[JoeJ]

General,

I do pull my taps under vacuum and usually I have all of my taps pulled withing 7 days from the last boil. I added my extra 2,000 taps in 2014 before most of this data was compiled.I do all my tapping and tap pulling by myself , so any issues with the install or removal are my own fault. When I am pulling the taps, I will go look back at previously pulled taps to make sure no liquid has shot back into the previously pulled taps. If there is a drop with liquid remaining in it, I go back and pull the drop off again and vacuum out the liquid. My problem with the mold has really just started in the past 2 season, even though I have been using Lapierre and CDL semi-rigid since 2009.

I was in my bigger woods with 2,100 taps today and checked the first 4 lines with 388 taps on them. I replaced 36 drop lines that had enough mold in them to make me replace them. If there was a few black spots next to the tee, I left the drop alone, otherwise the drop came out.

Joe

[JoeJ]

Dr Tim,

The data I put in my chart is from the taps around my sugar house and does not include the new 2,100 taps. I have 4 separate collection points at my sugar house and did not include them all in the chart. I used a single stage Sihi pump from 2006 to 2009 generally achieving 24" of vacuum. Then, in 2010, I put in a 2 stage pump and now run about 26.5". The vacuum to remote releasers is carried by 1 1/2" pipe and is pretty much the same level as at the pump, (except for occasional problems). Some of the drop off in % between the main woods and the NW woods I think is associated with the CV adapters. With no physical changes to the woods, except the additional vacuum the was applied equally to all points. The CV adapters dropped the % difference, then equalizes it, between the Main woods(CV) and the NW woods (Clear straight) . The chart below lists all 4 collection points.
...Main.....NW......#1.......#2
....CV......CS........CV....... CV
...31.26...35.15....28.25...29.21........2010
...25.34...25.74....24.42...25.98........2011 after 2011, for some reason, probably weather related in my opinion, the NW woods has continued to under produce (may it is time to reconsider CV's)

The new woods had a rotary vane pump that consistently put 27.5" of vacuum 2,900' into the furthest part of the woods, yet in 2014 due to vac problems, the sap yield was only 17.09 gpt. Everything new.
This season with 27.5" of vac almost 100% of the time, sap yield was 11.81 gpt. I think that this low production was again weather related,but. Now add mold in one year old drops and that probably doesn't help production. The drops last winter had some mold here and there and I didn't replace any. Now it seems that the mold is now more wide spread in about 10% of the drops so far.

Joe

[DrTimPerkins]

The data I put in my chart is from the taps around my sugar house and does not include the new 2,100 taps.

Hi Joe,

I'll preface this by saying I'm not trying to be critical, and not trying to convince you to use CV spouts, that's entirely your call....I'm just trying to understand better what is going on and figure out the variables at play here.

Thank you for the clarification on the new taps and the additional information. Unfortunately it just makes me a bit more puzzled. If you look at how much your NW bush compares to the Main Bush from 2008-2015 (the first graph I sent in my previous post), the relationship goes from one where the NW woods is outperforming the Main woods for the first couple of years by a decent amount. Then you put in CV adapters and the first year you see no real change in that relationship, but the second year you do (the Main woods does proportionally better than it did before). Then you switch back to CS spouts, and the Main Woods does a lot better than it did in comparison to the NW woods (OK....2012 was an odd-ball year so I'll give a Mulligan on that one). The next two years (2013-2014) the two woods produce nearly the same, which is a different relationship than it was for the first several years. Then in 2015 the Main Woods does way better than the NW woods, which is really odd (and you've already used up your one Mulligan). In addition, your yields have dropped off considerably since the first several years.

Altogether it tells me a couple of things.

1. Your variation from site-to-site (which you are using to compare the performance of CV to CS) is VERY high and is not stable over time. This makes any comparison between the two areas very difficult at best. If you knew (for example) that the NW woods ALWAYS outperformed the other areas, and you changed something and yields dropped way off, then you switched back and the production came right back up again, then you'd have a pretty good case for knowing why the change happened. In this case, the relationships changed over time, and the variation from year-to-year is very high, and your production is drifting downward (generally).

2. Your production drop-off has to be related to something. If your vacuum level is still generally quite good (you mention you had some problems), then it is likely to be sanitation related. Perhaps weather was also at play, but given that the 2014 and 2015 seasons were very similar, we'd expect similar relationships among the two sites in those years, but instead we see one year where the two bushes did about the same and the next year one bush did WAY better than the other. That is very odd. It is also a good illustration of what I'm saying about variation. When you have two similar years (weather-wise and tubing system-wise) and have nearly 50% difference between the relationships in the two sites, you can see why we go to such extremes to make sure all our comparisons and variables that we're looking at are very tightly controlled during our research.

Unfortunately it is almost impossible to judge the sanitation level of tubing by looking at it. While you can see some of the crud that is there, much of it is not really visible at all. Some of the most highly contaminated tubing I've seen looks quite good to the eye, but when you take an actual reading of the amount of contamination, it'd scare you.

[BreezyHill]

Joe
Something to think about. My releaser and manifold is all glass. So I can see the flow of the separate sections of the bush very well through out the day. For the last two seasons my coldest parts of the bush have been poor producers, at best. I have checked the vac and it is good and they are all washed the same.

What I find to be the issue is the weather. The extreme cold winter, right up to the start of the season, and between the first thru third runs was below 0 or at least single digits. The runs that were the best were the second days of two day runs. The coldest locations were even running when we threw in the towel with day time temps of 65-70 and the sap was turning in the collection tanks. But the lines that were then producing were the cold areas.
When we pulled the next day the only taps running were the colder areas and the warm areas were done.

I have more trees to retube in those cold areas and I have not ranked that high on the priority list due to their past poor performance. If this is a more mild winter than the last two. I will be installing tubing and mains to collect that area; since they historically have been top production areas. What kicked a$$ last season, has never been tapped, due to it is in a bowl and the rim of the bowl was not a great producer historically. This past season the rim sides were such good producer I will be pulling some of the taps onto a new main to reduce the volume of sap in the lines and a new manifold design at the wet/dry line.

I will be changing some drops this season that are of a poor quality tubing, that I had issues with this past season so I expect a slight increase in those areas, of which are two of the cold areas. Time will tell.

Farming of any kind is always a gamble. Keep good records, write everything down, and what works you repeat. Things that fail, you try and explain why they failed to learn from the error. I like to go with what works the best, but keep the rest in my bag of tricks....to draw on when other things fail.



Ben

[PATheron]

I think that if you pull the taps and let them hang with the taps still on them that that would be the best way. The reason I think this is that the mud dobbers like to fill up the little hole in the tap. If you are going to cut the taps off and throw them away who cares if they do that. Your drops would still air out. The only thing that wouldn't work too good like that for the airing out would be if you use the checkvalves. Then I guess you would have to cut them off because the check valve wouldn't let it air out.

[JoeJ]

So today I went through another 403 taps doing repairs. I replaced 57 drops (really 60, but 2 were fisher chews and 1 deer) with varying degrees of mold. That represents a 14 % replacement rate. However, today I discovered after about 60 drop line inspections, that 99% of the drops that had mold in them were leaning over forming a possible water trap. If the tee and drop line was upright, there was no mold. The
same thing held true for the rest of the 400 drops. The problem is 95% with the black straight through tees and hardly ever with the plugged tees at the end of the lateral. If the tee is an inch or so from the tree, the drop line flops over. If the lateral line is tight against a tree, and the tee touches the middle of the tree, the tensions hold the drop upright and thus no mold. I use CDL blue plugged tees and CDL black tees that have the spouts stub on them with a cinch circle similar to clear straight spouts. When you push the drop onto the tee to plug it off, the drop lines do not come off easily. It forms a very good seal. Thus the question, where is the moisture in the drop lines coming from? Condensation? As I pull the taps, I am vacuuming out any left over sap in the drops and rechecking the drops after all the taps have been pulled on one lateral to make sure no liquid has shot back up the line. So I think that in 2016 when the taps are pulled, I am going to leave the 2,100 drops in the newer woods hang open and plug the 1,000 drops at the sugar house onto the tees, but make sure that all the drops are upright.

Joe

[JoeJ]

Dr Tim and Ben,
First of all Dr Tim, thanks for the analysis and the two charts in the earlier post. The whole drop in production is perplexing to me,but as Ben suggested, there has got to be more weather related effect on the production in the North Woods and overall. Especially since I did put new drops on the 1,000 taps at my sugar house for 2105. So I checked my records may came up with another chart. These numbers are from the NW woods. I added in 2013, because as you said DR Tim, everyone had a good year and it adds in some comparison numbers

year.....Number of runs.......Runs over 1 gpt........Days with 1/2 gpt or less.....Days with no sap

2013.............23....................14......... .....................0............................ ...0
2014.............19.....................5......... ......................5........................... ....8
2015.............17.....................5......... ......................5........................... ....3

The main woods gets sunlight as soon as it peeks over the mountains. The NW woods, with the very steep hill, gets the sun several hours later.

I guess that I will just hope for a season with weather similar to 2013 or maybe 2009.

Joe

[spud]

Joe I think the weather has some to do with the difference in production. I also know that in my woods the trees that face South/East out perform my West facing trees every year. As soon as the sun comes over Jay Peak to the East it only take an hour or so for my sap to start running. By noon I can be running 1000 GPH but my West facing woods is just starting to take off. The problem though is by about 5-6pm EVERYTHING freezes up in my woods. The South/East trees ran 3 more hours then the West trees each day. The West facing trees run maybe 4-5 days longer at the end of the season but the sap quality by that time is poor making me much less money. I know I bashed the CV2 spouts last year but it was only the ones with the pin holes in them. I was more upset with the dealer that sold defect spouts to me. These defect spouts should have been thrown out a year before I bought them. I am taking a season off from using the CV2 spout just to make sure all the bad ones will be gone by next year. Other then the pin hole issue I think the CV2 spout is the best spout on the market hands down. I did break a few more of these spout pounding them in but I think that was all my fault. As far as the balls sticking I never had a problem. The CV2 spouts grip the tap hole very good and never needed to be reseated during the season. The research behind the CV2 spouts is non bias from PMRC. They have proven that this spout out preforms all other spouts on the market. I feel I lost a bunch of sap last year due to the pin holes and my wife does not want me buying more this year. I feel I am going to loose production this coming season due to this decision but I cannot convince her. I do plan to replace 6000 drops next summer and then wait till the third year before using the CV2 spouts again. I am going to use the white Max Flow spouts this season in hopes they grip the taphole better then the clear smart spouts. This seems to be the spout of choice by many producers. I would highly recommend all sugar makers to use the CV2 spouts from year three to when they replace their drops.

Spud