evaporator investment

[peterjd89]

I'm in between buying a new evaporator and a used one. I'm wondering how long it takes to make your money back on a new or used on, or what an average amount of time. I'm looking for a 3 by ten with 750 taps

[unc23win]

I went with a used 3.5x14 evaporator and a used RO for the 2014 season after finding out the prices of new evaporators. One with all the gadgets is like $45,000 new. Mine was a little bigger than I needed, but got if for great price from Lapierre. Here is the link for their used ones http://www.sugaringequipment.elapierre.com/produits_en.asp?no=2

A lot of people buy used,

[mudr]

I'm keeping an eye on this thread. I am looking to buy my first "real" evaporator. 2x5 or 2x6 range. I watch the used listings here and am really starting to settle on following through on a quote I got from a a guy to build new. The used ones that are not beat up and rusty appear to be approaching the cost for a new one.

[WESTMAPLES]

i bought my mint used 2x6 with all new brick, pan gasket, cement for $800 less than new msrp but if i bought new it would have cost another $350 ontop of the new price for the brick and gasket i thought it was a decent deal for a mint used evap and i paid myself back by the end of last season and now ive bought a RO instead of going with a bigger evap i like the idea of the machine cutting down my overall boiling time instead of going bigger just to gain a few more GPH im in this for production sugaring, but still want to keep it fun

[GeneralStark]

Totally depends on your business model. If you are planning to sell all your syrup bulk, with 750 taps you had better be looking for the cheapest used rig you can find. If you will be retailing all your syrup, and perhaps value adding on top of that then a new rig might make sense. There are so many different approaches to sugaring that it is pretty much impossible to effectively answer your question.

If you have some cash laying around to throw at this venture then used equipment makes sense. If you are hoping to finance it through a farm loan then new will be your only option.

Will you be able to make .4-.5 gpt or will you make much less? Nature is fickle, so there is no sure thing but if you do it right you can guarantee consistent production. Revenue from 300+ gal of syrup will be considerably more than from 50 gal., obviously.:)

In my case going with a new rig was the only option. I retail all my product and value add most of it and can count on a high return/gal. made. I also have lots of customers visiting the sugarhouse so a beat up used rig was not an option. In my case I will have my rig paid off within 4 years, maybe sooner with current growth of sales.

The best investment is in the woods as that is where the syrup is really made, but you still have to be able to boil the sap. How you do that will depend on available resources and time, how much syrup you can make, and the market for it.

[BreezyHill]

GS swings for the fences.

Right on most things, but the reason that most businesses fail is a lake of sales. The reason that most farms fail is production losses and cost over runs. Find your sales point and contract if possible to lock in your pricing if selling in bulk.

Farmers that succeed are those that have a business plan from start to finish and have the ability to change direction when production slumps or sales dwindle.

IMO start with a used rig and doll it up if you need. Take the resources saved and invest in other items need to make efficient use of your time.
For sales, use bulk pricing for your basis and sales to retail can be used for future investment or repairs or for the utility bill. It is amazing how much that jumps during March and April. But that is from a person that uses high vac, air under fire, RO, and a steam removal fan system to help with sap preheating.
Somebody is making a nice amount of $$$ off of a financed purchase. Since the first years are the most $$ in interest a used rig can make large returns the first 2 or 3 seasons. A New rig financed for 5 years can cost you $30K. A used rig can cost as little as $4000 and for another $1-2K you could paint the arch and new stainless panels for the arch. Year ones payments pay off the used rig. Following payments can be used for other investments. But you have to keep in mind that I am a recycler and love to keep my dollars in my pocket.

This is my releaser system:12061
Less than $100 capacity for over 10K taps
Nobody ever plans to fail...they just fail to plan.

[morningstarfarm]

Well said Breezy....

[unc23win]

It is funny how some people give advice as generalizations while others give advice like it it is the gospel. I wouldn't say that General is wrong at all if his plan is working for him and I am sure it is.

1. What is a large amount financed to one person is only a mere investment to someone else.

2. There is a big difference between saving money and investing it. I think it is great to save money, but lets face it saving money in savings account at .006% interest doesn't really compare to an investment in a business such as Maple Syrup while I am happy to say how I got into maple, I leave it up to each person to decide where their limits are.

3.The simple fact is that loans work because in many ways they are more affordable yes of course someone is making money on the loan, but making a $6000 in payments per year is more affordable than coming up with $30k up front.

4. Even if a person had $30K they would be smart to still borrow the money and invest theirs at the same time.

5. One of the golden rules of business is don't put all your eggs in one basket for a lot of people a loan enables them to have money to invest in other ways and also save as well.

6. For Myself a plan with far less risk that keeps more money in my pocket never really becomes anything more than a dream that is either obtained over a greater amount of time or sadly never obtained at all.

7. Recycling and re-purposing is a great idea that is environmentally friendly and it should be commended, but the amount of money saved doesn't compare to the amount that can be made through investing.

This is The United States of America where a person can dream as big as they want to many of our countries greatest companies and wealthiest business people today are what they are today because they themselves or the founders were willing to to take more risk.

[BreezyHill]

Jared,

Thanks for furthering my point.

Unfortunately the American Dream is only held by a few now days. Far to many are looking for subsidies which is corporate welfare; which is paid by taxation and the accumulation of National Debt.

The question was one of fiscal responsibility. I have seen countless farms go under due to imprudent borrowing. They went to a loan officer that looked at the numbers of the past and mistakenly thought that those numbers can be replicated in the future. Unfortunately that is not necessarily the case...weather patterns cycle, economies cycle, customers cycle, etc.

If this were not the case every producer of the past would have kept on producing, with the business either being passed on to a heir or bought by a neighbor or investor.

Example...Did you know that Southestern Vt was the birth place of the cotton gin? So with thousands of acres of cotton in the area why is it that there is no cotton grown here any more? Where many of the sugar bushes of Vt and my area of NY were fields of cotton and pastures for sheep. Our old hay barn was originally built for a sheep barn in the late 1700's, Converted to Dairy in the mid 1800's and my grand father stopped milk cows in 1969. When the beef cycle of the farm started.

Gospel is a great word...one's beliefs but another's fiction. I for one believe in God and the Bible is Gospel; but I can see how a Creationist that looks at strictly the science and the formation of the earth in 6 days....

IMO...In My Opinion...I am of Scottish descent, maybe that is why I want to retain the money that another would have made by investing in me and retain as much of future profits as possible too
.
In know way am I impugning the use of loans for all cases. I borrow money from banks all the time for investment in our operation. Rarely do I by new but that is due to my mechanical abilities and what I have been taught and have learned over my life. I get a great deal of satisfaction from building equipment and repurposing equipment. This is an art in many peoples eyes and a great investment in the future of farming...which in itself is based in art.

Short Story: My future daughter in law had the opportunity to buy a car for college. She went and bought a new car. She could not understand why I was not pleased with the decision. My son had his $2500 Ranger that was bought with cash. She has a $750 monthly payment and large insurance bill, on a vehical that sits 6 days a week or more. This semester she didn't drive it until last weekend. Yes hers is 4wd and is very nice but it is a poor investment IMO. After 2 years she finally said:" ya know what I learned today...I should have got a used 4wd like you said and I would have over $35K toward my equipment I will need after I graduate." Lesson well learned; but at an awful cost.

Trust me I know risk, by age 19 I had bought a Ford F350 diesel, a 30' flatbed, and a 24' Aluminum Stock trailer and was hauling Horses, cows and hay all over the east coast. I started this in 1983 and still have those trailers and use them all the time. T.hey were all great investments and made me plenty of $$$. The Day after I graduated High School is was hauling horses to Maine.

So yes I get the American Dream and so far it is working for me...but I hate to see people Dream to big and lose their shirt off their back; because they Failed to Plan.

Ben

[GeneralStark]

Well said Jared...

A couple other thoughts while on the subject. The support provided when purchasing new equipment is often overlooked, and in many cases can be worth a great deal. Not everyone want to be tinkering with equipment when it is go time, and in my case I would much rather be making as much syrup as possible. We all value our time differently, and that is another big piece of the puzzle.

Financing equipment through a dealer is very different than taking advantage of other types of investments at much lower interest rates. The USDA for instance is a tremendous resource for new and experienced farmers and I have been very impressed with their support of my business venture. I am even considering financing some more equipment for value adding through them and the minimal interest paid will be well worth the capability of opening up new markets and opportunities.

A good accountant is also a tremendous resource for any business. New equipment purchases can be leveraged in a number of ways to your advantage which generally is not the case with used equipment.

It really comes down to your ultimate goals and available resources. We all have different ways of approaching sugaring.

[unc23win]

Thanks General I would have to say that you and I are 2 prime examples of how 2 different ways of obtaining the same goal can be successful within about the same time frame. I think I said that right.


Well said Jared...

A couple other thoughts while on the subject. The support provided when purchasing new equipment is often overlooked, and in many cases can be worth a great deal. Not everyone want to be tinkering with equipment when it is go time, and in my case I would much rather be making as much syrup as possible. We all value our time differently, and that is another big piece of the puzzle.

Financing equipment through a dealer is very different than taking advantage of other types of investments at much lower interest rates. The USDA for instance is a tremendous resource for new and experienced farmers and I have been very impressed with their support of my business venture. I am even considering financing some more equipment for value adding through them and the minimal interest paid will be well worth the capability of opening up new markets and opportunities.

A good accountant is also a tremendous resource for any business. New equipment purchases can be leveraged in a number of ways to your advantage which generally is not the case with used equipment.

It really comes down to your ultimate goals and available resources. We all have different ways of approaching sugaring.

[Maple Man 85]

From a producer/soon to be MBA graduate there are benefits to both purchasing new and used. Either way you get depreciation value but with used equipment you may have bought someone else's problem... At the same time it is nice to see the money in pocket. It largely depends on how your product is being marketed and confidence level of the producer as to how much debt they can take on versus the projected/potential income. We live in a world of inconsistent income so base your expenditures on one of your least productive years to create a cushion, diversification is a key element to business.

Most businesses have the ability succeed and thrive but it is how business is conducted that separates the successful. Hasty decisions without proper research and narrow minded thinking coupled with unwillingness to keep up with the industry results in failure.

Maple Man 85

[lakeview maple]

I spent the first 4 years with a used 2 x 6 Leader lightning that I picked up for $1500 , the guy was great that I bought it from and he even delivered it. He threw in some extra equipment that he had, I was a rookie Sugarmaker and he was very helpful. I quickly out grew it and researched for a bigger rig, there just weren't any available so I started looking at new ones. I went with D & G on a 3 x 10 and I don't regret it. I take every thing I make and put back into the business , I don't sell bulk, all retail. We have a pretty good market that goes along with our blueberry farm. We paid it off in a little over 2 years, it doesn't have all the bells and whistles, its wood fired but it works for us. Every year now I try to add a new piece of equipment, this year it will be adding power to the sugarhouse , we run a 12/2 wire to a 20 amp breaker now ,it runs the lights and AUF but I cant run a RO or Vac system that's why the investment into the power. Im still a rookie at this but I learn a little more every year , the people here are very helpful and I have learned a lot by reading the forums. If you invest wisely you can get the rig you want without killing your budget, figure out what you think youll make , plan on making less and there is your payment schedule. If you make more then pay it off early. Hope this helps and Wish you the best in the coming season,Al

[BreezyHill]

Something that has just come to light to our business is leasing. We are in needs of upgrading a truck for our feed mill but no bankers can me swayed to do a loan on a truck that is out of the emissions control era. The added cost of purchasing your computer program license every 6 months is very costly, to repair these units. The older models are more reliable and get great fuel economy compared to a truck that has to go thru an exhausted burn off every 200 miles.

I found a place that would lease me the truck of my choice on line. They gave me a better rate than my local bank that I have been with since the 1970's, the accountant likes the contract, and at the end of the lease I can by the unit for one of three options: $1, 10% of initial value, or pay the 10% through added payments. I can also not keep the unit if I don't want it.

Ounce you are in the system they will be able to do quick additions of other equipment and they have a crew that goes out and inspects the equipment prior to the purchase. You will pay a small fee for this but it makes purchasing used equipment a breeze; since you can buy items in other states with confidence, without taking the time to travel and check it out yourself.

I will find out Monday if they will entertain maple equipment leases and post their contact info if they will.

Ben