Flavor of syrup

[11-Nick]

I did a search for this topic because I know I've read about it. But I can't find it.
Last year, I started the season by having all sugar maples tapped. I tapped all sugars because I've read that they give off more sugar than the other maples. Some of those sugar maples didn't produce as well as some of the others, and I pulled those taps before the 2 week mark. I then tapped some reds that I had access to, and got a decent amount of sap from them.
Some of the syrup that was produced in the first week or so was given to a relative who said he didn't think it had very much maple flavoring. Honestly, I didn't think it had a lot of flavor, either. It was sweet, but just not flavorful.
Some of the syrup that was produced later (after reds were tapped) was much more flavorful.... by my own taste, and the taste of the same person who received out of the earlier syrup.
What is the cause of the difference in flavor? I know flavor can be impacted by changes in the sugars (from the exact same trees) throughout the season. Is it also different specifically because you tapped more of one maple species than another?
Thanks

[GeneralStark]

Sap from different species of maples will certainly yield variations in syrup flavor. The timing of when the syrup was made during the season is also a factor due to microbial activity in the sap. There will be more microbial activity during warmer periods and this affects the amount of invert sugar in the sap which affects the level of caramelization of the sugars.

So one question for you regarding the different syrups you produced are did you "grade" them and is the flavor due to the different species being tapped or due to seasonal variation?

[11-Nick]

First: I didn't grade them. I'm a second year tapper and a professional knucklehead. I tap it, boil it, and eat it. Although I want to grow in numbers of taps, I am interested only in the fun and enjoyment of it right now. I'll worry about grading when I'm more confident in the basics, like pounding the right end of the spile in the tree.
Second: That is my exact question.... was the flavor difference due to the species or the seasonal variation. Back to what I said above: I'm worried about consumption (flavor) right now. Not about winning a ribbon or incorporating into a multinational business. I believe my later syrup was better than my earlier syrup, but more than one variable changed. So I'm not able to say with much confidence what made it better. I'd like to know so I can repeat what I did, though.

You said different species yield variations in flavor. Is there a general flavor characteristic that each species carries? For example, do reds, in fact, provide more maple flavor to the finished product, where sugars provide more sweet?

[GeneralStark]

I personally feel that red maples do generally provide a more robust flavor but there are certainly site factors that can play into the final product's flavor as well. Flavor can be a rather subjective thing and I don;t know if anyone has done any real scientific testing related to your question but there sure are lots of opinions about it. I know sugarmakers that would never tap a red maple because they feel they have a negative impact on the flavor and others that think they are the cats meow for flavor.

It is tough to say for sure what caused the flavor variation in your case, especially without any grading info. but it does seem possible that the reds had an impact.

[Jebediah]

We make syrup exclusively from red maples. This is all that's available to us. It tastes more "mapley," in my opinion, than what we can get in the grocery store. My guess: sap has lower sugar than from sugar maple, but same or greater concentration of other components. Lower sugar requires more boiling, which then produces higher concentration of these "other components." And it is these other components that contribute to unique flavor. Obviously just hand-waving. Similarly, I've wondered what truly-pure sugar from maple sap would taste like. I wonder if it would be indistinguishable from table sugar.

[GeneralStark]

We make syrup exclusively from red maples. This is all that's available to us. It tastes more "mapley," in my opinion, than what we can get in the grocery store. My guess: sap has lower sugar than from sugar maple, but same or greater concentration of other components. Lower sugar requires more boiling, which then produces higher concentration of these "other components." And it is these other components that contribute to unique flavor. Obviously just hand-waving. Similarly, I've wondered what truly-pure sugar from maple sap would taste like. I wonder if it would be indistinguishable from table sugar.

Maple sugar has a dramatically different flavor than cane sugar if that is what you mean by table sugar. It does have the distinct maple flavor.

[DrTimPerkins]

For such a seemingly simple solution (water and predominantly sucrose), maple syrup has a HUGE range in flavor due to a wide variety of factors. Much of the main flavor changes that occur over a season is due to the influence of microbes, which convert a fraction of the sucrose to invert sugars (glucose and fructose), which both caramelize at lower temperatures and are also more active in Maillard reactions (non-enzymatic browning reactions between amino acids and sugars). Then you superimpose the differences in equipment and processing on top of all of that. In any case, with just a few possible factors, there are hundreds of possible flavor outcomes, which themselves are not just a simple "the flavor is present or not", but instead is a complex mixture of strength of flavor and interactions among different flavors, which all combine to produce the broad spectrum of what we think of when we talk about the flavor of maple syrup.

You've probably all seen the "Plinko" game, where you have a series of nails/pegs in a grid, and you drop in one disc at the top and it bounces around and eventually comes out somewhere across the bottom. You can drop it in the same spot at the top a bunch of times, but it will come out in a different spot on the bottom each time. Maple flavor is kind of like that.....which makes it rather difficult understand scientifically. There are just too many small variables that can change in large or small ways the flavor outcome. We can (and do) understand some of the larger effects (such as RO doesn't significantly impact flavor -- watch for the summary article in the upcoming "Maple Digest"), but teasing out the smaller effects is far more problematic.

In any case, to your question of what influenced the flavor when you changed trees part way through the season.....it is impossible to know with any certainty. The effects are what we would call "confounded", in that you changed two things (the mix of tree species the sap came from) and the time you collected the sap, so it is not possible to ascribe the outcome with any one of those factors, or (more likely in my opinion) the interaction between the two. The great thing is that you've always got next year and future years to do more experimentation, and the results will be good to eat in each case. It is a great topic to think about and debate with friends/family as you're boiling sap.

Lastly, if anyone happens to be going to LEME next month, I'll be talking about how microbes affect lots of different aspects in maple production, and the effect on sap chemistry and syrup flavor is a big part of that talk. Hope to see you there.....or perhaps later at Verona or the Vermont Maple Conferences, where I'll likely be giving the same talk.

[Jebediah]

GeneralStark--maple sugar sure does taste different than table sugar, but what I'm wondering is whether this is partly due to the "other stuff" in sap, which gets concentrated along with the sugar, and possibly the interplay of this other stuff with the sugar, as opposed to it's being exclusively due to the sugar itself.

[11-Nick]

Again, I'm only heading into my second year. Most of you who are reading this have many more years of experience, and vastly more knowledge than I do. Having said that, I understand that what I'm about to say probably doesn't create a ripple on your pond.
But in a giddy humor, I will tell you that I tapped less than 20 trees last year. I just got permission to tap a new hollow on the neighbors property. It's less than a mile from my house and I can drive to it. I've gone back to this one, single hollow 3 times to look at it and mark more trees. I've stopped counting sugars when I got to 50. I can stand in one spot and see them all, they are so close together. They are on a really steep ridge with over 150' of fall from top to bottom. I'll get to use tubing for the first time. With an 8 sq ft flat pan, I can't possibly tap/boil them all, so will probably only do ~20, as I have about 8 reds in my yard to tap just to get some of that flavor that has been mentioned previously. But the excitement of knowing what I have in years to come from this hollow, and the ones that neighbor it! I'm so excited, I feel like a 6 yr old on Christmas Eve! (rubbing my hands feverishly.)
Okay. I've had my burst of enthusiasm. Thanks for humoring me. Your day may now continue.

[psparr]

Maybe it's those Fulton county trees, they just don't taste good😋

[DrTimPerkins]

... what I'm wondering is whether this is partly due to the "other stuff" in sap, which gets concentrated along with the sugar, and possibly the interplay of this other stuff with the sugar, as opposed to it's being exclusively due to the sugar itself.

Pure refined sucrose (aka "table sugar") has essentially no other flavor than sweet and is colorless. With maple (and other "non-refined" sugars), it is the mix of other things (amino acids, organic acids, phenols) and the interactions of those with sucrose, and more importantly, with the invert sugars due to microbes, during sap collection and processing that results in color and flavor development.

[11-Nick]

Maybe it's those Fulton county trees, they just don't taste good
Your such an idiot. You're an example of the type of person who finds nails in their driveway.:evil:

[sugarsand]

Your such an idiot. You're an example of the type of person who finds nails in their driveway.:evil:
waiting to see how this plays out.

[psparr]

waiting to see how this plays out.

Inside joke.
But he does still owe me a bottle of that "stuff"

[CTSap4Maple]

Ok, back to the topic. Last season I ended up with a strong hazelnut flavor from tapping mostly reds. I have only two sugars 😞, a handful of norways and the rest are reds. I plan to isolate a couple of gallons from each from the first run this season, boil them down using the same method and see if I can taste any difference. Not scientific at all, but just curious enough to take some pegs out of the plinko game.

[adk1]

For such a seemingly simple solution (water and predominantly sucrose), maple syrup has a HUGE range in flavor due to a wide variety of factors. Much of the main flavor changes that occur over a season is due to the influence of microbes, which convert a fraction of the sucrose to invert sugars (glucose and fructose), which both caramelize at lower temperatures and are also more active in Maillard reactions (non-enzymatic browning reactions between amino acids and sugars). Then you superimpose the differences in equipment and processing on top of all of that. In any case, with just a few possible factors, there are hundreds of possible flavor outcomes, which themselves are not just a simple "the flavor is present or not", but instead is a complex mixture of strength of flavor and interactions among different flavors, which all combine to produce the broad spectrum of what we think of when we talk about the flavor of maple syrup.

You've probably all seen the "Plinko" game, where you have a series of nails/pegs in a grid, and you drop in one disc at the top and it bounces around and eventually comes out somewhere across the bottom. You can drop it in the same spot at the top a bunch of times, but it will come out in a different spot on the bottom each time. Maple flavor is kind of like that.....which makes it rather difficult understand scientifically. There are just too many small variables that can change in large or small ways the flavor outcome. We can (and do) understand some of the larger effects (such as RO doesn't significantly impact flavor -- watch for the summary article in the upcoming "Maple Digest"), but teasing out the smaller effects is far more problematic.

In any case, to your question of what influenced the flavor when you changed trees part way through the season.....it is impossible to know with any certainty. The effects are what we would call "confounded", in that you changed two things (the mix of tree species the sap came from) and the time you collected the sap, so it is not possible to ascribe the outcome with any one of those factors, or (more likely in my opinion) the interaction between the two. The great thing is that you've always got next year and future years to do more experimentation, and the results will be good to eat in each case. It is a great topic to think about and debate with friends/family as you're boiling sap.

Lastly, if anyone happens to be going to LEME next month, I'll be talking about how microbes affect lots of different aspects in maple production, and the effect on sap chemistry and syrup flavor is a big part of that talk. Hope to see you there.....or perhaps later at Verona or the Vermont Maple Conferences, where I'll likely be giving the same talk. yup see u at Verona I will be interested in hearing more about it. I had some syrup last year that was dark in color but very little maple flavor. Really scratched my head over that

[3bsmaine]

The last two years here in Maine, where I live, the season/sap flow started very late with only about 2 week period for collection. So what happened during this time of very late March, early April - color of syrup quite dark, but the flavor to me seemed what you would expect early in the season. But of course it was early in a very short season. Trees all Reds, but I can't say that the flavor is a robust maple, more caramel. So obviously many factors at play here.