Logging Equipment suitable for Tubed Sugarbushes

[WestfordSugarworks]

Hey all,

What pieces of equipment have you found most handy for logging in sugarbushes (with tubing systems)? This spring we ripped out the old tubing on our 40 acre sugarbush and began a thinning job. We just had a few chainsaws and a 50 hp tractor with a three point Franzgard (sp?) winch. While this job was a great learning experience for both of us and I got very good at dropping trees, we realized how terribly inefficient it is to do things this way. Drop the tree, limb it, determine if it was mill quality of if it was firewood/pulp, cut to length based on previous determination, then move on to the next tree. My father winched trees onto the trails and pulled them out to the landing and loaded ino a trailer or onto a stack. Our winch could only pull 4 trees at time unless we doubled up the choker chains. While the job took a very long time, we did a superb job in my opinion. All tops lie within less than 3 feet of the floor and very few trees have scarred trunks. Some crop trees have broken branches, but I think we did a great job overall.
When we have our new tubing up, what is the best combination of equipment to have? Bulldozers with a winch seem very handy and do minimal damage to the forest floor when pulling logs out to skid roads. Do any of you have small skidders/forwarders that you are able to fit under your mainlines where they cross roads? I'm sure many of you use tractors with a 3 point hitch which is what we will continue to use for the time being. Just some day I'd like to have a real piece of equipment that won't do a wheelie when you try to pull out a few big logs, and that can move through the woods with more speed and control.
I'd like to hear about any tools/machines that you all find helpful to use in the woods with tubing up. Just for those who are curious, we have a Massy tractor with a Franzgard 3 pt. winch (not sure of exact model of either but the tractor is about 50hp). I run a Husqvarna 562xp (60cc) which I have been very happy with. My dad had a very old and heavy 80 something CC Jonsered that finally kicked so he bought a newer 70 cc Jonsered (again, not sure of model). We would load logs into our 14 foot dump trailer using the tractor with forks and bring them to the hardwood or softwood mill, or deliver log length firewood. We were able to get all the profit from the logs, but like I said, what a terribly inefficient way to log. We would have done better to hire a logger from the start. But it was a good learning experience in many ways.

Hope sugarmakers had a great summer. Thanks for any information.
Will

[maple flats]

I do much like you, except rather than pulling with my Fransgard V4000 winch most of the time, I have started dragging most of the time with my 8000# class excavator. I have a grab hook on the back of the bucket and I use a chain to pull the logs. This may not be faster, but I get far less collateral damage. The tracks don't leave tire ruts, the blade can do some "bulldozer" work if needed and when pulling I can steer the log(s) very easily buy swinging the cab one way or the other. I generally limb the tree length where it fell, then pull tree length if the pull is straight enough, if too many turns will be necessary I buck it into logs. When I pull them out, I either place them either near my sawmill or my firewood log pile depending on my plans for the log. If going to the mill, I cut to length and then tow the rest to firewood.
The tractor and winch work well, but my ground has too many soft spots and I get ruts so I generally avoid that. For the tractor I also have a 3 PH log arch, which is sometimes used, but that is only good for logs up to about 24" diameter.

[GeneralStark]

Most sugarmakers I know that do their own logging use a tractor with winch as you describe, but generally larger. Judging by your description of doing wheelies through the woodlot, it sounds like a 90hp machine may be a better bet. We had a pro. logger do some work for us last fall and he used a 90hp 4wd tractor with Farmi winch and that seemed to work pretty well. He does quite a bit of sugarbush thinning and says he almost always uses the tractor though he has a skidder as well. It took him 6 days to thin about 6-7 acres. He did have help one day with the limbing on some large hemlocks.

There is all sorts of good logging equipment out there, especially the euro. stuff. If your budget is unlimited a forwarder and small dozer with winch can be a good combo. I know a retired logger from your area that used this combo for years and sweared by it. Good forwarders aren't cheap though.

[WestfordSugarworks]

Thanks for the info.. Dave, what is the longest tree length that you generally will pull with your excavator? And how many logs can you pull with your log arch?

General, when you had this logger do some thinning, was it with tubing up? If so, did you lower the tubing at all or just leave it in place?... I wish that I had unlimited money but I'm just doing some research in advance.. Got knee surgery and now I have time to sit on the internet learning more about sugaring.

[GeneralStark]

Two areas we had thinned had tubing up prior to logging so I completely removed it and then set it back up properly. It had only been up one year and I had set it up without wire because I know we would be logging in there.

Ten year rotations are what most good foresters that know sugaring plan for in their management plans to avoid logging with tubing up. It can certainly be done with tubing up but it is certainly an added expense.

[unc23win]

I know a producer who is going back and retubing and utilizing lifts and ladders so that they can make use of older existing logging roads because they are finding that it is hard to get into the woods for thinning as well as taking care of fallen and standing dead trees. This summer I started I decided I wanted to install all new tubing my first job was to take care of some fallen and dead standing trees. I think there was 5-6 trees altogether and I was able to just cut it all up an haul it out as fire wood as it was easily accessible.

Myself unless it is a major job where tubing doesn't exist currently I would much rather prefer to do the thinning and maintenance myself. I am sure that there are good loggers like General talked about out there, but I haven't found one in my area yet. Most of them have one goal and that's get the logs out and get paid, which is understandable just not aligned with my goal.

[PACMAN]

I also have a logging winch for my 4 wheel drive kobota,and I thin with my lines up. I have a skidding arch that I use with my 4 wheeler and I drive and skid hitches with it right under the lines. Works great. We bring the wood to one place and unhook the hitch behind the 4 wheeler and hook it up to the tractor with the farmi. We dont unhook chokers either,I have 4 for the tractor and 4 chokers for the 4 wheeler. We always have a steady flow of wood going to the landing.I only cut beach for firewood for home and evaporator,and I cut spruse for logs. I too have Huskys 5 of them all XPs. Hope this helps.

[maple flats]

Tree length for a Ash, Cherry or Beech can be anywhere from 50' to about 80' in my woods with the taller ones growing among other tall trees. If they are in an area with mostly younger or shorter varieties of tree they do not grow as tall. The 3 pt. hitch arch I have only has an opening (width) of 24" if I remember correctly. I did not make it, I have a small commercially made unit. I think I paid about $180 for it about 8-10 yrs ago. It us made of heavy wall sq. tube 3"x3" and has a lift arm pin near the bottom of each side. On the top is a grab hook. The grab hook is pinned in place and that pin can be removed. There was an optional top link that had a short extension out past the pin to give extra height when lifted, but I never tried one. That would set the load higher and farther back, which could cause you to flip over. If I lift a real heavy log with that to pull, I actually use an extra chain I have made up that grabs the choker at the bottom of the log and then hooks to my drawbar. That I added, but it make the load pull stay at the drawbar and not up high. Then if I catch a stump it stops the tractor rather than flip the tractor.
My excavator is only 8000# and it can only lift at 8' out about 2600#, even less farther out, but I find it quite handy pulling because I can steer the pull to about 30 degrees in either direction from straight behind me, meaning I can get 12-14' movement from one side to the other when pulling, if the load is lighter I can get even more, but on a heavy pull, going too far to either side causes the opposite track to start to get light and it then won't pull straight.

[adk1]

I have been usin the atv and skidding one 8' section of log at a time. Not easy especially when I am on a hill hard to even get the atv to where I need it. I really need to get a good heavy logging rope so that I have extra length to reach ,ore log
He. Been using the cable on the 2500lb warn winch and some heavy chain so far. I just pull out firewood for myself

[VT_K9]

Last year we made a major upgrade to our sugar bush by extending the lines to the lowest point on the property. Prior to hanging any tubing we cleared out any and all hemlock which would block the sun for this area. Then we cleared out any trees which were not maple or unhealthy (we kept a couple of birch trees) and would likely fall on to the lines. This was pretty easy at this point. In the bush where we already have lines run we try to keep ahead of the growing trees (maybe less money or firewood, but no damage to the lines or other trees) by getting them at the size we can handle. Granted our bush is currently at about 9 acres. We use a Kubota L4240 (42 hp) 4wd tractor with a Farmi winch (I believe 351). I am a little limited on the size of what I can bring out due to either bringing out a whole tree or the lower portion of a large tree. We have a grapple and forks for the front end. I prefer the grapple for manipulating logs and brush. I looked in to what it would take to have a worthy increase in weight capactiy. I found I would need at minimum an 80-90 hp tractor or skid steer. I like the size and capacity of the skid steers, but they are not as convient for long hauls out of the woods like a tractor. SO that brings us to the idea of a woods trailer... they make them with grapples on them which could load the trailer and unload it at the landing. I built a trailer to manuver through the woods. I would need my excavator in the woods to load it and my excavator at the landing to unload it. A place nearby has some Metavic trailers which look like they would be pretty handy to reduce damage to the logs (devalue them) or the woods.

Mike

[cncaboose]

I found a Wallenstein LT40 log grapple trailer on Craigslist 3 years ago for half of retail. We love it, though it will never pay for itself. Really minimal damage to the sugarbush and you have clean logs and firewood. Picks up a 1200 pound log. Only problem is that you have to be able to drive it to the down log or you are back to winching/skidding. With our Kubota L2800 I can get it into some tight spots. We have been able to drive it right over and under lateral lines, which all need checking for slope next spring anyway. If you need a new toy and tax deduction, this might be it.