Will this vac set up work for me?

[Woodsymiles]

I have about 1200 taps, one area of main line with 4 sap ladders on it, lowest ladder has a double star. The grade to the top of bush is fairly steep with a double main line with single lines going off it. Im looking at an Delaval 78 pump with a 5hp motor. Ive had a number of set ups on this property but now in need of another set up. Been looking at those Bosworths too.

[maple flats]

What size are your mains? How long?
To me the Delaval 78 should be big enough, but is the 5 hp electric or gas? If gas, it may need a bigger engine, maybe a 6.5 or more. If it's electric, that is big enough.
Distance is your big factor unless the lines are sized properly, if you go undersized, the pump matters little because the pump can't pull enough to maintain good vacuum on undersized lines. If you aren't sure what size lines you need for the distance you are at try getting a copy of Steve Childs (Cornell) maple tubing notebook. It gives all the numbers to guide you.

[Woodsymiles]

Mains are 1", double mains go up roughly 200+' with 4 main lines coming off from it, going off several hundred to one being 300' or more. Sap ladder main line goes maybe 150' with one maybe 100' line on the end of it all with another main going into that. The double main and mains coming into that are all at downhill grade to gathering point.

[BreezyHill]

The 78 is plenty of vac depending on how you setup the drive pulley and the connection to your releaser with the distances you are talking.

with the 4" pulley on the motor you will be at 810 rpm and at 60 CFM. This is al provided the pump is not worn out of course. Rebuild kits are around $200 and if the housing is wavy then it will need to get honed.

The 60 cfm is at 15" and the higher you go the less you get.

I run several ladders around 10 is the count right now. On a tight tubing system you will need to inject air to get the ladders to keep up with peak flows.

Don't forget that the 78 can have as large as a 10 hp motor added to get 100 cfm with a larger pulley.

How tall are the ladders?

The releaser is the biggest question I find. Mechanical Releasers (MR)units eat cfms. With every cycle you have to bring the chamber from 0 to what ever your vac level is; while an electric unit adds to your cfm rating by evacuating the sap from the releaser.

Some MRs have leaks in their design that makes it even worse.

The closer your pump to your releaser the better and a 3" pvc to the releaser is worth every penny invested.

11923

The white line is the vac supply to the SS water trap. The pumps are up stairs connect to a tee then a reducer, check valve, ball valve then pump.

You will also want to invest in a reclaimer for the vac oil from the 78's exhaust.

I would use the 78 on your system with no regrets.

Ben

[Woodsymiles]

Not sure on ladder height, the distance from vac to releaser is about 20', the releaser is a double mechanical and it leaks and also lets Sanger sucked into pvc, I even drilled a hole in pipe to drain. Been looking for an electric motor because the vac pump doesn't come with one and was thinking 5 hp but maybe bigger is better, depends on the deal I guess. Bottoms of ladders have venting valves. With 5hp motor and a leaky system, plus ladders what would be ball park vac with this set up?

[Woodsymiles]

I think I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with this set up, also found a 7.5 hp motor that will give it some extra suckage, hope for the best.

[BreezyHill]

Depending on how leaky the system I would not see a reason with the 7.5 hp and a 5.5" pulley you cant reach 24-25". YOu should be able to use a 6" if that is all you can find. The original spec is 5.5" for 1090 RPM of pump.

A few tricks I have learned that may help on the ladders:
Use a needle valve on a saddle about 35-50' away from the ladder to inject air.
If you want to drain the ladder automatically use a small check valve.
Build a vac gauge with a needle valve so you can check the adjustment of your needle valve on the saddles. The higher the vac after the ladder the better. Usually you need to increase injection one time a season during a peak flow and let it be all season.

11924

This is a 1/2" riser ladder that was an experiment last season...stars are going bye bye for me. It thawed faster and ran longer on cloudy days and sunny days. The bottom is 1" x 1/2" x 1" tees with a 90 degree elbow to balance all the risers. 4 risers on a 1" line worked best but 5 was fine. Manifod is a 2" pvc with drilled and tapped inlets to force the sap to go up the side wall and around in order to not be blocked by any sap in the manifold and to separate the sap and air faster. This one is #1 of 7 in a 1200' run with a total of 112' of risers. This one will have a colored line for wet line next season.

It is very easy to make the manifold and you can get the taps and drill bits off ebay for very good price. I got 1", 1.5" .75", and .5" taps for less than $50. and the 1" bit was $20; but I use fostner bits to drill the pvc as they don't walk when drill the off center pvc manifold. They also make deeper threads thus better seals.

We hope to have the main bush back to 1200 taps next season and it will have a 75 cfm pump as main unit and a 65 as standby.

My shortest ladder is 6' and tallest is 18' most are 16'. 16s take less air injection than an 18 but when you have enough air in the system for an 18 you don't need to add anymore... until you add a bunch more taps.

Only ladder#1 is a wet/dry line. #2 & #3 were setup that way but after we finished retubing there were more taps onto each line and the wet line needed more air so I balanced the taps and wet back to single conductor line.

I'm looking for a D 84 for the main pump as I have another 400 taps to add in 2017 in another bush and 4 ladders.

[Woodsymiles]

Wow, that is quite the set up, good ideas.

[BreezyHill]

11925
This was the manifold with the wet & Dry holes made with one thru pass so they lined up perfectly to each other. The one screwed further in is the dry and was cut with a dremel tool so that the end facing the cap would suck air from the highest point but the rest of the fitting would shield the opening from splashing sap from the risers.
11926 For a leak proof fit, cut the thread in only part way.
11927
11929 You only need the 4 risers on the 1" main. I had to add the #5 to see if there was any difference. There was the risers lifted slower and would freeze a few minutes earlier in the evening.

I will have to get a pic of the bottom tees for ya all.

I could not get the pics into a pm so here they are.

Ben

[Woodsymiles]

interesting, thanks.

[Woodsymiles]

Got the Delaval 78 today for $200. have to score a deal on motor now, or a converter to 3 phase because I have a 3 phase 5hp. found a 7.5hp but about out of my price range.

[lpakiz]

Waylayer,
If you want to convert that 3 phase motor, go to www.factorymation.com and look at the converters. You can dial up the RPMs you want, anywhere from 1/2 speed up to double speed, if the driven load can take the increase, as well as program in the acceleration and deceleration.
Not all that expensive. One drawback is you will not get quite the nameplate horsepower that the tag calls for.....

[BreezyHill]

Look on ebay at variable Frequency Drives. They are available that take in single phase and put out 3ph. This unit will adjust the speed f the pump to what is needed to maintain the desired vac level with the use of a transducer.

Benefits of this are you can use the converter to over speed the pump in initial startup of the system for the day and evac the system rapidly and then it will slow tremendously to maintain the vac. This makes it easier to tell when you have a leak as the read out will show higher than normal rpm.

Elec savings can be very sizeable due to the low rpm of the motor to maintain vac

Less wear on the pump at lower rpms

Less noise in the sugar house or the pump room.

Draw back is the need for a super efficient moisture trap since the pump will be running cooler and will not dissipate the moisture after it is shut down. This causes rusting of the housing.

Personnally: Let the budget do the talking and for this season set it up with the 5hp so you have some $$$ to spend if needed. Then next season you can go to a larger motor if you need more cfms.

But remember that you could save cfms by upgrading the releaser or easier yet and less costly is sealing up the system leaks. I would concentrate on any leaks off of the ladder system first and then you can work the ladder end second. Just remember that ladders need bubbles to speed the sap up the ladder.

Last season I had some 30 P that was not keeping tight fits on spouts and had a hard time getting above 25 until I changed out several drops. This season we will be cutting out all those drops since I have fewer helpers during sap season. We will be making drops between semesters and cutting them in as weather permits.

Remember happy wife, keeps the sugaring going. Keep the out flow of $$$ as low as possible and the income steady and all will be good.

[PARKER MAPLE]

Look on ebay at variable Frequency Drives. They are available that take in single phase and put out 3ph. This unit will adjust the speed f the pump to what is needed to maintain the desired vac level with the use of a transducer.

Benefits of this are you can use the converter to over speed the pump in initial startup of the system for the day and evac the system rapidly and then it will slow tremendously to maintain the vac. This makes it easier to tell when you have a leak as the read out will show higher than normal rpm.

Elec savings can be very sizeable due to the low rpm of the motor to maintain vac

Less wear on the pump at lower rpms

Less noise in the sugar house or the pump room.

Draw back is the need for a super efficient moisture trap since the pump will be running cooler and will not dissipate the moisture after it is shut down. This causes rusting of the housing.

Personnally: Let the budget do the talking and for this season set it up with the 5hp so you have some $$$ to spend if needed. Then next season you can go to a larger motor if you need more cfms.

But remember that you could save cfms by upgrading the releaser or easier yet and less costly is sealing up the system leaks. I would concentrate on any leaks off of the ladder system first and then you can work the ladder end second. Just remember that ladders need bubbles to speed the sap up the ladder.

Last season I had some 30 P that was not keeping tight fits on spouts and had a hard time getting above 25 until I changed out several drops. This season we will be cutting out all those drops since I have fewer helpers during sap season. We will be making drops between semesters and cutting them in as weather permits.

Remember happy wife, keeps the sugaring going. Keep the out flow of $$$ as low as possible and the income steady and all will be good.


Ben how many taps are you lifting with this system and what's the elevation difference?
I have a situation where we need to lift approximately 40' ,600 taps over 400' run. Any suggestions?

[BreezyHill]

Ben how many taps are you lifting with this system and what's the elevation difference?
I have a situation where we need to lift approximately 40' ,600 taps over 400' run. Any suggestions?

Lines feeding the net ladder in the series have a 2% slope design.
ladder #1 is 14' lift with 461 total taps this is the ladder that got the 1/2" experiment ladder.
#2 16' with 448 taps
#3 18' with 210 taps
#4 16' with 66 taps
#5 16' with 52 taps
#6 16' with 37 taps
#7 16' with 25 taps
#8 is 10' with 54 thru the ladder that feeds #3 at the bottom
#9 is a 6' lift with 36 feeding the top of #2 and in the sugar house is a 1.5" glass ladder that is 12" or 18" that lifts 222 taps.

Elevation change from bottom of #7 to top of # 1 is about 79' by google earth. Distance is about 1200' by path of the mains.

Provided all the note cards were added into the right spots on the spreadsheet after washing taps this spring.

If I can get caught up we will be at 1261 taps on the entire system next season.


I prefer lifts of not more than 16'. #3 is the one that is 18' and needs a little extra air than what was needed for #4 and #8 already contribute. Granted there are more taps into the main between 3 & 4 but not enough to warrant the extra air in my mind.

Honestly watching the glass ladder has taught me the most. Possible the biggest lesson was patience. I have a spot that I can inject air 4' from this ladder into a 3/4" clear tubing and see the response. This main is 1% slope for about 250' and if it pools it goes up to a dry line that crosses my brook about 75' above the ice. I can tell immediately when this line is into the dry system. Just 1/8th of a turn on a 1/2" plug with a rubber gasket is enough air to make this ladder work at peak performance. You can also see how sap travels on a bubble and is very slow to be lifted without bubbles. I cant get the video of the releaser in action to load so send me a pm.

depending on how the tap count is spread out over the ladders I would run 3 equal sized ladders. You must also remember that the elevation change from low point to top of first ladder plus slope amount is the total height of all ladders.
So your 40' plus 2% over the 400' = 48' of risers. so 3 - 16' ladders should do the job.


Stars will back feed. 3/4" and 1" risers had to much slippage. That is the sap running back down the wall of the pipe when the bubble goes up. BUT stars are really good to get started with and to use when you have limited numbers of taps into the mains. I have run as many as 23 taps in a 5/16 riser and find under 12 is not a good number.
#7 has to 5/16 lines that go up to the ladder top.
#6 has 3 but one has a Y in it to clear the lines if it plugs. This is the ladder that got shot up and is very confusing to look at.
#5 uses 3 risers but has 12 total as it will be growing next season.
#4,#3, & #2 will be getting 1/2" risers and 2" manifolds for next season. 2& 3 will have 4 risers and #4 will have 3 with the forth installed but not connects to the main and plugged at the bottom. If I need it is there. If not I can wash the manifold easier. I usually run 15-20 gallons thru the system for a rinse. Only takes 5 minutes and there is always somebody willing to run the wheeler down with a load of solution to do it.

Single line risers are very inefficient past 6' as the sap hits the elbow of the top and a lot of slippage occurs...you can see this in the video with the 1.5" ladder with the 90 elbow at the top.

1/2" seems to be the best size....thaws faster than 5/16 and holds the heat longer so it runs longer into the evening to clear the main of most all the sap before a freeze. High vac is a key and and enough cfms for what you will need. I like rotary pumps as they draw the system down fast and keep it there. Our first ladder back in the late '70's was on a piston pump and I ran that pump unitl 2013. It did a good job but it could not keep up with what we are dong now. As long as you have 22-23 inches you will be fine; but I will saw at 29" things sure do fly up the ladders a lot faster. Sometimes a little to fast and you have to use rapid tie to secure things so that you don't get leaks.

I have another bush on the south end of the farm that will need about 45' of elevation change in a short distance to get up a ledge face. I plan on using 16' ladders there.. One will only have a feeder main 6' long and up another 16'. All that to collect another 100-150 taps. May need another to cross the road for more taps on the other side; but that wont be til 2017 or '18 depending on helpers and sales.

I don't drain the ladders at night. Cant bring myself to dumping the sap on the ground. I like to have atleast some colored main prior to the ladder to see the flow and any pooling. Pooling is blockage of vac transfer so keep it to a minimum or non is best. Black will thaw a little faster but it does get warm in the end of season. I will be adding a blue line between 2#3 and am still going back and forth about how o design it. Currently I have a wet dry setup to the top of #3. But I connected another main to the wet line as I had to many taps for the wet line to handle. I think I will run a 3" manifold here with a colored wet line and black dry. Prior to #2 the wet will have an injector. Both the wet and dry lines will have their own manifolds of 2" pvc atop #2 and the wet line will have a new color line feeding #1. I hate having to shut down the last two seasons due to warm sap coming into the sugar house. The black was raising the temp nearly 10 degrees after the last 500' in black lines and the 3 ladders.

Ask anything and if you want to come look at things that's fine too.

Ladders are just a tool that we used for a long time and I use more and more to reduce the work load and eliminated hauling sap. We are still trucking water for the cows with this drought and I hate it...cant imagine hauling sap for4- 6 weeks in the spring. I just hope this drought doesn't mess up the sap season.

When you want all the details about setting up a ladder let me know and I will tell ya what I do; but first and fore most is put the ladder in a sunny spot. A shaded spot in the bush is the worst place. Takes to long to thaw. Simple things like that can be a ladder killer.

Ben

[Woodsymiles]

Ill def look into that, thanks.

[PARKER MAPLE]

L
Lines feeding the net ladder in the series have a 2% slope design.
ladder #1 is 14' lift with 461 total taps this is the ladder that got the 1/2" experiment ladder.
#2 16' with 448 taps
#3 18' with 210 taps
#4 16' with 66 taps
#5 16' with 52 taps
#6 16' with 37 taps
#7 16' with 25 taps
#8 is 10' with 54 thru the ladder that feeds #3 at the bottom
#9 is a 6' lift with 36 feeding the top of #2 and in the sugar house is a 1.5" glass ladder that is 12" or 18" that lifts 222 taps.

Elevation change from bottom of #7 to top of # 1 is about 79' by google earth. Distance is about 1200' by path of the mains.

Provided all the note cards were added into the right spots on the spreadsheet after washing taps this spring.

If I can get caught up we will be at 1261 taps on the entire system next season.


I prefer lifts of not more than 16'. #3 is the one that is 18' and needs a little extra air than what was needed for #4 and #8 already contribute. Granted there are more taps into the main between 3 & 4 but not enough to warrant the extra air in my mind.

Honestly watching the glass ladder has taught me the most. Possible the biggest lesson was patience. I have a spot that I can inject air 4' from this ladder into a 3/4" clear tubing and see the response. This main is 1% slope for about 250' and if it pools it goes up to a dry line that crosses my brook about 75' above the ice. I can tell immediately when this line is into the dry system. Just 1/8th of a turn on a 1/2" plug with a rubber gasket is enough air to make this ladder work at peak performance. You can also see how sap travels on a bubble and is very slow to be lifted without bubbles. I cant get the video of the releaser in action to load so send me a pm.

depending on how the tap count is spread out over the ladders I would run 3 equal sized ladders. You must also remember that the elevation change from low point to top of first ladder plus slope amount is the total height of all ladders.
So your 40' plus 2% over the 400' = 48' of risers. so 3 - 16' ladders should do the job.


Stars will back feed. 3/4" and 1" risers had to much slippage. That is the sap running back down the wall of the pipe when the bubble goes up. BUT stars are really good to get started with and to use when you have limited numbers of taps into the mains. I have run as many as 23 taps in a 5/16 riser and find under 12 is not a good number.
#7 has to 5/16 lines that go up to the ladder top.
#6 has 3 but one has a Y in it to clear the lines if it plugs. This is the ladder that got shot up and is very confusing to look at.
#5 uses 3 risers but has 12 total as it will be growing next season.
#4,#3, & #2 will be getting 1/2" risers and 2" manifolds for next season. 2& 3 will have 4 risers and #4 will have 3 with the forth installed but not connects to the main and plugged at the bottom. If I need it is there. If not I can wash the manifold easier. I usually run 15-20 gallons thru the system for a rinse. Only takes 5 minutes and there is always somebody willing to run the wheeler down with a load of solution to do it.

Single line risers are very inefficient past 6' as the sap hits the elbow of the top and a lot of slippage occurs...you can see this in the video with the 1.5" ladder with the 90 elbow at the top.

1/2" seems to be the best size....thaws faster than 5/16 and holds the heat longer so it runs longer into the evening to clear the main of most all the sap before a freeze. High vac is a key and and enough cfms for what you will need. I like rotary pumps as they draw the system down fast and keep it there. Our first ladder back in the late '70's was on a piston pump and I ran that pump unitl 2013. It did a good job but it could not keep up with what we are dong now. As long as you have 22-23 inches you will be fine; but I will saw at 29" things sure do fly up the ladders a lot faster. Sometimes a little to fast and you have to use rapid tie to secure things so that you don't get leaks.

I have another bush on the south end of the farm that will need about 45' of elevation change in a short distance to get up a ledge face. I plan on using 16' ladders there.. One will only have a feeder main 6' long and up another 16'. All that to collect another 100-150 taps. May need another to cross the road for more taps on the other side; but that wont be til 2017 or '18 depending on helpers and sales.

I don't drain the ladders at night. Cant bring myself to dumping the sap on the ground. I like to have atleast some colored main prior to the ladder to see the flow and any pooling. Pooling is blockage of vac transfer so keep it to a minimum or non is best. Black will thaw a little faster but it does get warm in the end of season. I will be adding a blue line between 2#3 and am still going back and forth about how o design it. Currently I have a wet dry setup to the top of #3. But I connected another main to the wet line as I had to many taps for the wet line to handle. I think I will run a 3" manifold here with a colored wet line and black dry. Prior to #2 the wet will have an injector. Both the wet and dry lines will have their own manifolds of 2" pvc atop #2 and the wet line will have a new color line feeding #1. I hate having to shut down the last two seasons due to warm sap coming into the sugar house. The black was raising the temp nearly 10 degrees after the last 500' in black lines and the 3 ladders.

Ask anything and if you want to come look at things that's fine too.

Ladders are just a tool that we used for a long time and I use more and more to reduce the work load and eliminated hauling sap. We are still trucking water for the cows with this drought and I hate it...cant imagine hauling sap for4- 6 weeks in the spring. I just hope this drought doesn't mess up the sap season.

When you want all the details about setting up a ladder let me know and I will tell ya what I do; but first and fore most is put the ladder in a sunny spot. A shaded spot in the bush is the worst place. Takes to long to thaw. Simple things like that can be a ladder killer.

Ben

Thanks Ben for that info. I might be up for a road trip your way this fall. Maybe we could get together and check it out

[PARKER MAPLE]

PMed you Ben keep me posted