What the £¥€#!! Is in my mainline????

[Jmsmithy]

Hello Folks,

Last year was my first commercial production season, approx 300 taps, 220 on vac, rest gravity line. End of season I pulled, taps, left vac on to pull out moisture etc and wrapped up.....

Walking through the woods today, I see what looks like either some type of bugs or mood or something in certain areas....

What is it!?? Help!!!

[GeneralStark]

It's mold and bioslime. The residual sap left in your mainlines at the end of the season becomes a perfect medium for the growth of microorganisms.

[BreezyHill]

Don't panic there is still time to correct the mistake. Go to your maple supplier store and get the sapline hydrogen peroxide.

I dilute it in a tank on the atv and use a large mouth bottle to suck some thru the lines at the end of sap season then in the fall we go through the system with a back pack sprayer. The wand will need to be cut and a small section of 5/16 tubing is slide onto the end after the hand valve. I uncap the spout and connect the wand to and fill the hanging drop with solution. Recap and go to the next one. This takes around 3 hours to do 650 taps. The next season we turn on the pump and suck the solution out as we are tapping.

Lines look like brand new and no nasty looking tubing when customers or whom ever comes to see the system.

Take a look at Steve Childs data from Cornell and cleaned lines produce like new lines and spouts.

Add in the appearance factor and you cant afford not to clean your lines...from a marketing and profitability stand point. If you are only looking at how long it takes you to wash lines; and do not take in to account the appearance factor and all benefits, then some will have a leg to stand on.

Remember it is not just what is in the bottle but all the factors from the tree to the bottle that make a gourmet product.

The best mushrooms are grown in horse $hit, but you still have to wash them off! LOL

[Jmsmithy]

How do u handle it General ? OR what do you do that completely avoids it?

Thank you BreezyHill ! Please - I'll happily and gratefully take any advice you care to give !

[GeneralStark]

I have stopped using mainline you can see through and that fixed the problem. :)

All kidding aside you have not made any mistake as BH suggests. You can certainly treat your systems with hydrogen peroxide as suggested but even then you will never be able to completely rid your system of microbes and there will always be mold/bioslime in your tubing.

I personally rinse my system on vac. as I am pulling taps with a 50/50 water vinegar solution to remove as much residual sap as possible as that is the primary medium in which the microbes grow. Then I plug the drops and shut off the vac. for the season. At the beginning of the next season I generally let the first bits of sap run on the ground to rinse the tubing again and then start making syrup. Typically the syrup will be darker and then lighten up as the tubing is rinsed. The flavor is always good so I have not found any reason to do anything different. At this point I have not been convinced there is any point in using hydrogen peroxide or any other caustic cleaner in my tubing system. To each their own, but there is no clear scientific evidence to suggest otherwise.

The big question is what is the problem? Do you not want to see the growth in the tubing?

[unc23win]

General nailed it you did not make a mistake there is no scientific evidence about using cleaners. Most people clean for piece of mind more than anything.

[BreezyHill]

Thank you BreezyHill ! Please - I'll happily and gratefully take any advice you care to give !

For me that slime and chucky stuff is a production killer. We have around a dozen sap ladders and that junk will plug the spider fittings and reduce or totally stop vac transfer and sap flow.

We have been cleaning lines since the early 1980's and the science is proof posititve that clean lines will increase production.

We also wash the collection tanks or at least spray them down after every load to keep things sanitary as possible.

My future daughter in law has 15 food allergies. Some things cant even be in the less than 2% range or she will react. Apples is one and she has to stay away from apple cider vinegar...she reacted at college in hort class when they were spraying weeds around the greenhouse with vinegar. Label said it could have trace amount of apple cider vinegar.

Hydrogenperoxide is an approved non reactive sanitation product so we use it any everything in the sap house.

I use Blue on the wet lines so I can see if there is a problem and I make my pvc manifolds so they can be uncapped, inspected and cleaned out if needed.

You reaction is IMO the correct reaction. Not supposed to be there and do what we can to prevent it. Some are old school and don't feel it is a problem but in this technology age a person could take a picture of black gunk in tubing and put it on the web and say "don't eat maple syrup because producers don't wash their equipment" And how do you fight a picture of proof positive...simply by doing all you can to have your system as clean as possible.

Also remember there are people out there with allergies to penicillin and molds. My mother in law cant feed corn silage any longer due to her penicillin reaction flairs if the silage has any blue, green or black mold on it. All she does is breath it in for an hour and she swells up.

So did you do anything wrong...kinda; but you have the chance to correct it before it causes a problem, since you were perceptive enough to react to the problem.

My rule of thumb is simple. Clean, clean, clean...we are making a food product here.
Keep records of when you cleaned and how you cleaned and your life after FDA inspection will be a lot easier.

Good Luck!

[PACMAN]

Everyone has this in there lines some where during the summer. I also leave the vac on while i am pulling taps,and I still have it. the first small runs on my 500 taps and the junk is gone.It does not take much of a run to clean my lines as last year I let it run in an old tank I had and it only had about 45 gal. in it. I think thats a fair price to pay for clean lines. So, No, you didnt do anything wrong.

[n8hutch]

I have found if you maintain good slope in your lines and keep up with sags. That you get very little "slime" in your lines. It truly is nothing to worry about. Let your first run go on the ground for awhile & your good to go. If it really bothers you and you just have to clean it you certainly can do what breezy does. I can still remember seeing that #stuff# come out of our lines when I was a kid, looked like really long ribbons coming out of a full pipe of SAP.
This has been around essentially since tubing was introduced.

[lpakiz]

I'm in the same camp as Breezy. When I pull taps, I suck a bit of hydrogen peroxide solution into to each drop, then put the stubby onto the peg. It takes about a gallon per 100 taps.
Right now (End of August) there isn't a sign of black mold or slime. The lines look (and are) CLEAN.
And I, too, have visitors to see the sap lines, and I wouldn't want anyone to see the slime and boogers I used to have.
A consistently sloped mainline system contributes to the cleanliness. If there is no liquid to spoil, there is no crude in the lines. I boil the first sap into good syrup.

[Jmsmithy]

Thanks gang for giving me direction here. Please keep it coming. We welcome any thoughts on this situation!!!

I guess I feel both ways about it....We are cleanliness fanatics so it's off-putting to look at for sure. We do not do tours/breakfasts etc but would certainly welcome any of our customers/friends/family to visit and see our operation. I have been told, however, that, as the General said, there is no scientific evidence (per UVM I believe) that cleaning mains affect production/quality. Conversely, as Breezy said, cleanliness w/ spouts/drops absolutely affects production !

It's mind boggling !

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

As Doc would say "No Comment" ROFL

[maple flats]

With hydrogen peroxide, be sure to use food grade and not medical grade. The medical grade has preservatives in it that are not intended to be consumed. With food grade you only get hydrogen peroxide. The food grade is available online, the only concentration I've ever seen is 35%. With the food grade, in sunlight it breaks down into water and oxygen. You must protect it in storage from sunlight, and it will not freeze until -33 F, but if it does freeze it breaks down into water and oxygen, then you would just have a bottle of water. To keep it from sunlight either put in in a black storage chest with all light leaks sealed, or even in a double box, and seal each, one inside the other. The medical grade has preservatives and is in a dark brown jug, both of which help protect it, but food grade usually comes in a clear jug.

[DrTimPerkins]

As Doc would say "No Comment" ROFL

Hey Flats....can't let you have the last word on this for sure....

Cleaning of spouts and lateral lines can help the lines "look" cleaner (less microbial load), however in this case looks can be somewhat deceiving. The actual microbial load a few months after cleaning (regardless of what you use) is fairly close to uncleaned lines.....it just is "cleaner" gunk.

In terms of impacting production (discounting the plugging of lift lines Breezy refers to) and the economic outcome on net profit, the results generally fall in the order of:

- No replacement of spouts/drops and not cleaning (worst production)
- Cleaning (with pretty much anything) without replacement
- Replacement (new spouts each year and replace drops ever 3 yrs OR use new CV spouts each year and replace drops every 5-10 yrs)
- Total system replacement -- all new system or new drops/spouts annually (best production, but impractical to do each year)

(See the attached figure, which represents the average results of a total of 6 integrated studies completed over the 2014 and 2015 seasons at both UVM PMRC and Cornell. Note that the results are expressed as the estimated net profit of a given strategy ABOVE that of doing nothing -- no cleaning and no replacement).

Essentially, sucking a small amount of cleaning/sanitizing solution in through the spout/drop just doesn't provide the required amount of material to dislodge much gunk or the necessary contact time to fully sanitize the materials. It will help, but it doesn't completely solve the problem. It's sort of like the kid who (at his mother's insistence) washes his hands by barely getting them wet and (perhaps) touching the bar of soap for 1/10 of a second. Yes....technically you washed, but you didn't do much of a good job.

It should also be noted that whenever you use ANY type of chemical cleaner (vinegar, hydrogen peroxide, alcohol, Clorox, etc.) YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO LET THE FIRST BIT OF SAP RUN ON THE GROUND TO FLUSH OUT ANY CHEMICAL RESIDUE. If you are cleaning with chemicals to ensure a quality product, then this is not an optional step....it is mandatory. It should also be noted that IPA (isopropyl alcohol) used commonly in Quebec is NOT approved for use in the U.S.A. Use of this product is illegal and technically your syrup could be considered contaminated and seized. Now some might say that hydrogen peroxide, Clorox and vinegar all degrade to water anyhow, so why bother? Yes, they do dissolve to water WITH SOME CHEMICAL SALTS. The salts can impact the flavor so need to be flushed out. The fact that these sanitizers degrade to water pretty much sums up the problem.....once they degrade to water there is no residual action to keep killing the microbes. So you have water in there that the microbes can grow in.

So basically, washing will help, but only to a certain degree. Replacement strategies (new spouts and drops and CV spouts) are far better. Combined washing and replacement are not better than replacing alone, so economically the time spent cleaning is a net loss, but if it makes you feel better, go for it.

Now to be complete, it should be noted that this is based totally upon yield and net economic profit. It doesn't address the syrup quality issue or visitors to the sugarbush saying "what is that crap in your lines" issue, and those may be valid concerns. Given the flat price structure of syrup (no real difference in price for different syrup grades), and the increasing consumer demand for dark syrup, this is not a real issue at this point.

Finally, this is not a difference between UVM and Cornell. It comes from the exact same study, which is a joint research project being conducted in both places over the past two seasons. Our results are very similar and are those summarized above. We will likely have a report coming out this winter on this work. We don't intend to tell you what to do....that is really your choice. But we will present all the results in terms of how different cleaning and replacement strategies affected sap yield and net profits, and let you decide which approach makes the most sense in your operation.

[BreezyHill]

Thanks Dr Tim for chimmoing in.
Where is the economic return for the dumped sap for the first days run?

Can you be so kind to put up the page that shows the graph for the different cleaning methods used by both Universities that had the side note that Cornell let the lines sit for atleast 30 minutes in the peroxide solution.

We also have a 12 volt pup on the atv that filles the mains with solution and the sugar house end is plugged filling the lines to near capacity.

On the economics side IMO it is best to have all customers as return customers and to not taint any with unsightly floaters in the sap or the lines.

We also do filter the sp after the releaser...which is pyrex glass for the most visability of visitors.

Thanks Again for the data!

[DrTimPerkins]

Where is the economic return for the dumped sap for the first days run?

Not sure I understand your question. There is no economic return (+ or gain) for dumped sap. Rather, dumping sap is a net loss or cost.


Can you be so kind to put up the page that shows the graph for the different cleaning methods used by both Universities that had the side note that Cornell let the lines sit for atleast 30 minutes in the peroxide solution.

There are dozens of different graphs showing all the different treatments, effects (yield), costs of treatment, net profit (or loss), and net profit above the cost of doing nothing. All that detail will be in the final report.


We also have a 12 volt pup on the atv that filles the mains with solution and the sugar house end is plugged filling the lines to near capacity.

There are many ways to accomplish the cleaning. Letting the solution soak in the lines is certainly far more effective than simply sucking in through the lines, however the material (sanitizer) cost is substantially higher.


On the economics side IMO it is best to have all customers as return customers and to not taint any with unsightly floaters in the sap or the lines.

Certainly we want to keep things as clean as possible, however many producers (especially bulk producers) don't have visitors/buyers in their sugarhouses. It would seem to me to be just as bad for someone to see and wonder why you're running sap on the ground as it would be for them to see the stuff that comes out of the line (before it is filtered).

As I said, there are many ways of getting the job done depending upon the circumstances. There is no one right way that'll work for everyone, which is why we want to give folks the results and let them make the decision for themselves.

[n8hutch]

So The first run is a net loss regardless if you clean your lines because your supposed to let SAP run on the ground to flush the system with either method?

[DrTimPerkins]

So The first run is a net loss regardless if you clean your lines because your supposed to let SAP run on the ground to flush the system with either method?

It is not technically or legally necessary to let the first sap run on the ground if you do not use a chemical sanitizer, although some people may choose to do that because the sap is often quite ugly.

[n8hutch]

OK that's what I thought. Thanks for clarifying.

[GeneralStark]

Thanks Dr Tim for chimmoing in.
Where is the economic return for the dumped sap for the first days run?

Can you be so kind to put up the page that shows the graph for the different cleaning methods used by both Universities that had the side note that Cornell let the lines sit for atleast 30 minutes in the peroxide solution.

We also have a 12 volt pup on the atv that filles the mains with solution and the sugar house end is plugged filling the lines to near capacity.

On the economics side IMO it is best to have all customers as return customers and to not taint any with unsightly floaters in the sap or the lines.

We also do filter the sp after the releaser...which is pyrex glass for the most visability of visitors.

Thanks Again for the data!

We have been down this road before but I think you may be referring to a study done by Cornell looking at different approaches for taphole sanitation, in which they cleaned old drops and spouts and compared them with new drops and spouts in one (or more) sap season(s). Their cleaning procedure was to wash the drops and spouts (after removing them from the woods) with detergent and water, then a 10 minute 10% chlorine treatment followed by a rinse, then a 20 minute hydrogen peroxide treatment, another rinse then draining.

The results of the comparison were almost no difference in sap yield so a drop and spout washed using their method will likely yield the same quantity of sap as a new drop and spout. Interesting results to say the least.

However, this does not mean that any other method of cleaning will yield these results, or remove the bioslime and mold from a tubing system. May it help? Sure, but it is a MAJOR STRETCH to suggest that putting some hydrogen peroxide in a tubing system with a 12v pump and letting it sit there will do anything more than rinse the lines and remove some gunk and make you feel good.

If there is other research Cornell has done that is available related to cleaning mainlines and impacts on yields or syrup quality please post it up.

[Jmsmithy]

Ahhhhh

love when you chime in Dr. Tim. Hoping you would on this.

[maple flats]

Thank you Dr Tim, for the clarification. I used to use the Peroxide thing, but after reading that it mattered little if any, I now just try to run the vacuum until the lines "look dry". I've used that method for 3 or 4 seasons now. I do let my first day or 2 runs go on the ground, and I've done that every year since I had tubing.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Thanks for the comment Doc :)

[BreezyHill]

The study I am thinking of did have different wash methods but was not a tap hole sanitation study. I will have to look in my docs after our fair this week.

Our first run is collected after we return from tapping as this gives enough time for all the water left in the lines to be cleared. Last year we had just under 500 gallons the first day. Hate to dump all that and in the collection tank it is as clear as any other day. We do have to change the filter at the end of the day but that is standard SOP as there is often several wood chips.

[lpakiz]

Maybe we all should be more tolerant of each persons objective here.
From the good Doctors point of view, the most important objective is profitability. He is balancing the cost of cleaning with the amount of syrup production. While I dont dispute the statement that sanitation is not achieved with such a short exposure to the solution, I know what I see when July and August roll around.

I assign as much or more value to how my lines look in August. The cost of labor and rinse solution, for me, is minor. (200 taps) This isn't the case for someone who has thousands of taps and needs to hire help to do this. Ditto for the operator who can't come up with the time, ambition, money or motivation to get this done. I know of woods that look like the last day sap ran, with taps still in trees and a tank half full of sewage.
And when I had crud in the lines, it took much more than a few gallons to get sap to come out clean. Boogers were appearing in mid-season yet.
There must be some Latin phrase that means "To each, their own"

[220 maple]

Never have growth is some of my pipelines, the black plastic ones anyways, the blue stuff seem to have a lot, problem solved only use black plastic?
Just imagine how dirty black plastic is? Maybe it should be outlawed?

Mark 220 maple

[Jmsmithy]

It seems there is no right answer.

I do know one thing however. I'll be putting some kind of filtration between sap pumping in and my sap storage tanks....

Guess I'll ask best kind in a different thread 