Electrical Water Jacketed Canner

[Amber Gold]

I just got a water jacketed canner and it has two 5000W heating elements. If I did the math right 2*5000W/230V=43.5A. Do I need a 50 amp breaker, or is it a 30 amp...power divided between the two legs?

Thanks

[wiam]

My math says 43.5 amps.

[Shaun]

I'm sure someone else will chime in. You will need a 50 amp breaker and at least #8 wire for a short run. 50 amp is marginal for this as most systems are designed to run at 70 to 75 % load. Should work fine though.

[Super Sapper]

You will need a 30 amp double pole breaker. You have 2 hot lines feeding it and the total amps will be divided between the lines. This would be for 220. I think 230 is 3 phase.

[Amber Gold]

Thanks Super. As I was writing the message, that's what I was thinking.

[BreezyHill]

208 is 3 phase/

110-115 is single pole single phase

220-230 is double pole...two hot legs "Single Phase"

208. 230, 460, 600 are 3 phase voltages.

Make sure your lugs on your terminals are tight. If not your power bill goes thru the roof due to resistance. Dropped my in laws bill by $150 per month in the summer be retightening the lugs on the new service to the sun room. Alluminum cable was loose and got a 3/4 of a turn to get back to tork level recommended. The following month the AC ran even more but the bill was $150 less than July.

Not a fan of aluminum cable.

Copper causes less fires and stays tight after the second tork check.

[Amber Gold]

Thanks Breezy. Can't believe the difference in your power bill. Makes me think of a FD call I went to last night. Homeowner lost power to a few rooms that morning (calls us at 9:30pm of course). We determine this circuit is on a 15amp breaker (not tripped BTW) and has an AC unit on it. He unplugs the AC unit and loses power. Thermal imaging camera shows the breaker's hot even though nothing's been powered on it since that morning. We figure the receptacle is junk or there's a loose wire in there. We can't believe it worked as long as it did.

Anyways, I need to hard wire a switch and wire for the canner. This is the switch (http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=142783-1571-PS30AC2ICC6&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3454690&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1) I'm looking to get wired with 10/2 MC cable. Is that OK?

[Shaun]

Maybe I have over sized my electrical installations? I'm pretty sure the load is not split between legs in single phase power. In three phase you use ohms law and divide by 3 for the current on each leg, hence its efficiency. If you put an amp clamp on each leg I think you would see the ~43.5 amps on each. You cannot divide again in single phase power.

If you run 8 wire it will handle a 50 amp breaker if the 30 trips. Breakers are only designed to protect the cables from becoming a melted mess.

I am no expert by any means, just trying to help and understand myself . Upsizing the wire would never harm. Undersized wire for breakers is what causes fires.

43 amps is 86% capacity of a 50 amp breaker which is over recomendations. 60 amp breaker and 6 wire would be the best choice.

[Cedar Eater]

It really depends on how it was wired. If a 5000W 240V heating element was wired to one hot leg and to neutral, it would only draw 1250W, and there is a very good reason for doing that. It would make the skin temp of the element much cooler so that it wouldn't burn as much sugar on it. If both elements are wired that way, it would make the total power draw 2500W and if each element was wired to a different hot leg, you would only need a 20A 2-pole breaker to feed it.

But if you really need to put 10,000W into the liquid, then each element would be wired to both hot legs and you would need a 50Amp 2-pole breaker. And in case you're wondering, I'm an electrical engineer.

[Cedar Eater]

You will need a 30 amp double pole breaker. You have 2 hot lines feeding it and the total amps will be divided between the lines. This would be for 220. I think 230 is 3 phase.

This is incorrect.

[BreezyHill]

The following chart was on line and is similar to what I have in a pocket guide...somewhere???

11806

This one does not take in to account different wire types just size and run distance.

The run distance is the feet from the breaker to the switch and then to the load(heater).

[BreezyHill]

CE, sorry I didn't see your post.

In a water jacket you heat water that heats an inner compartment that holds the syrup.

Would it work to run the elements on a switch system to connect at high level for heating the water up to temp and then low to maintain the temp while bottling.

[Cedar Eater]

CE, sorry I didn't see your post.

In a water jacket you heat water that heats an inner compartment that holds the syrup.

Would it work to run the elements on a switch system to connect at high level for heating the water up to temp and then low to maintain the temp while bottling.

I really would need to see the nameplate at least to give a more educated guess about how it was connected, but I would assume it was controlled with either a thermostat (like a water heater) or a variable infinite switch (like a stovetop burner) that would limit the average current to below 40 Amps continuous. If it is controlled manually, 10,000 Watts would boil a lot of water.

If it's not controlled by thermostat, infinite switch or even better, a smart (PID) controller, I can think of two ways it might be controlled manually.

1) both elements on = HI and one element on = LO.

2) one or both elements connected to 240 Volt for heating and then switched to 120 Volt for maintaining.

It really depends on how much monitoring the operator will do and how tightly the temp has to be controlled.

[Shaun]

Thanks cedar, I'm glad somebody else chimed in. I agree, hate to see someone do the work and have to redo or burn down a sugar house.

Always size your wire leads correctly for current/breaker and sleep at night.

[maple flats]

While cedar is totally correct, I would also think the nameplate would give you this info, oh wait, this is maple equipment, they never give you that info.

[Amber Gold]

I'm not an electrician, but I dabble in wiring...my own stuff. After reading my post I see I double counted it...should've been a 50 amp breaker...for what it's worth, it did work on a 30amp breaker and didn't burn anything down:) Shouldn't have been possible, right??

Not looking to half*ss it, just make sure it's done right. The previous owner was operating it on a 30 amp breaker, and based on the initial posts, I ran the canner last weekend on a 30amp 2-pole breaker. The canner came with an 8AWG stranded wire cable with a 3-pronged plug. I had a 10AWG stranded wire cable kicking around (rated for 30 amps), so I wired a 50 amp outlet I had to it and plugged the two together. Canner ran fine over the weekend. This was a trial run to make sure I liked it and see if there's any bugs to work out. Now I want to hard wire it with a switch.

The 8AWG cable goes into a box, then into a thermostat, and there's a cable going to each heating element. Based on the wire size, I'm guessing it's #12, maybe #10 wire. I haven't opened things up to see how it's wired. The thermostat seems to operate on 5F temp swings.

This is how I'd like to get it set up. During the season, I'm primarily just keeping syrup warm...comes hot off the evap., into canner, and dumped in keg/jugs at the end of the night. One element will work fine for this. In the off-season, it's primarily being used for getting cold syrup to temp. (2 elements great for this) and then maintaining temp while bottling. I'd like to add a switch mounted to the canner, so I can turn the second heating element off when it's in "maintaining temp mode".

My sugarhouse has a 100 amp service. I'm currently running a 38amp, 220V RO machine, 1hp blower motor (I think), and lights. The canner will be adding to my electrical load, so I'll need to start being careful of what's on when. For the 2017 season, I'll likely be upgrading to a 64 amp RO machine and still need to run the sugarhouse on the 100 amp service.

[Cedar Eater]

I'm not surprised that it worked on 30 Amps, Amber Gold. It sounds like it was rigged like a two element water heater. Does the thermostat detect water temp, or syrup temp? Either way, the thermostat would cause it to draw full power for as long as it took to get the desired temp. If that isn't very long, then a breaker sized to protect 10 AWG wire wouldn't trip. Repeated use of this with that much current would shorten the wire insulation life and the breaker life. And if anything occurred that kept the thermostat in a cold state for too long, the wire would be more likely to become a fire hazard.

Turning one element off would cause the other element to remain on for longer when there is a "call for heat" from the thermostat. That will shorten that element's life, but that's a judgement call on whether that's acceptable. It would increase the life of the switched element, the breaker, and the feeder wire, which could be beneficial if the breaker and wire were undersized for the two-element configuration. If the neutral is carried to the box, switching both elements to 120 Volt might be more beneficial for extending the life of the elements and reducing load on the main panel. It's just more work and more upfront expense.

[Cedar Eater]

If the equipment will be within sight of the breaker panel, there is no need to add a switch between the equipment and the breaker panel. The breaker can serve as your switch. If you do any individual switching of the elements, either to turn them off or to decrease their voltage to 120, it would make sense to do that downstream from the thermostat. Just have the breaker turned off when you do the wiring.

But if you have a convenient 50 Amp outlet with a 50 Amp breaker, why not just plug connect the equipment to that with a 50 Amp cord? It would give you the option of using the 50 Amp circuit for something else when it isn't needed for the canner.

[Cedar Eater]

The more I think about your situation, the more concerned I become. It seems highly unlikely that you have a thermostat rated to switch that many amps. Is this a homebuilt rig or does it actually have a brand name and model number? Check out this link on how to wire water heaters (http://waterheatertimer.org/How-water-heater-thermostat-works.html).

Devices (egs. thermostats, switches) that are rated to switch more than 30 Amps are rare and expensive. In the link above, see the setup for simultaneous operation of two elements. It uses two thermostats for a reason. If you don't have (and can't find) a thermostat rated to switch 50 Amps, the normal alternative would be to have your thermostat turn on a relay rated for 50 Amps. I know that it has been working but it's hard on the contacts to switch that much current at once and it will decrease the life of a thermostat.

[Amber Gold]

It's a small bros. canner. Been in service since the mid to late 90's. I'm assuming they sized the thermostat correctly since it's been working this long.

The breaker panel's on the other wall, so I could use it as a switch, but I thought you weren't supposed to. Where's the contacts out or something?? Just what I understood, so could be wrong.

I had the plug/outlet in a box of spare parts. I just need to hardwire it and not use the #10 SEW I used to test it out.

[Mel]

I wouldn't use a breaker regularly as a switch. I don't think they were designed to be used that way.

[Cedar Eater]

It's a small bros. canner. Been in service since the mid to late 90's. I'm assuming they sized the thermostat correctly since it's been working this long.

The breaker panel's on the other wall, so I could use it as a switch, but I thought you weren't supposed to. Where's the contacts out or something?? Just what I understood, so could be wrong.

I had the plug/outlet in a box of spare parts. I just need to hardwire it and not use the #10 SEW I used to test it out.

I sure would like to see the specs on that thermostat if it's actually switching both elements on simultaneously. I don't want to say "they don't make them like that", because someone might, but I haven't seen or found any.

Plug connected equipment is designed to be plugged in while it is turned off. This is especially important with 240 Volt plugs and high amperage. You don't want the plug acting as the contactor. If you want to hard wire the canner, you would normally use the thermostat as the switch. When you turn it all the way down, it should click to off. Then you only use the breaker as a switch when you want to work on the canner's wiring. If you need a 50 Amp outlet and plan to plug-connect the canner to it, you would always turn the thermostat down when connecting or disconnecting (except for when you need to pull the plug as an emergency disconnect).

[Mel]

Pictures may help.

[Cedar Eater]

I wouldn't use a breaker regularly as a switch. I don't think they were designed to be used that way.

They aren't, but I would be hard pressed to find a 2-pole 50 Amp switch for turning this device on if it was hard wired. The thermostat would be the day-to-day switch. The breaker would be the safety disconnect.

[Amber Gold]

I'll get some pics tonight and post them tomorrow. I'll take the covers off the connection points too.

I could be wrong, but I doubt the thermostat turns down to an "off" position. Even if it turned down to say 50F, it'd stay on during the winter. For now, the water jacket will stay full of water, but that'll get drained after every use during the winter. The heating elements will melt if they turn on with no water in it.

[Cedar Eater]

I'll get some pics tonight and post them tomorrow. I'll take the covers off the connection points too.

I could be wrong, but I doubt the thermostat turns down to an "off" position. Even if it turned down to say 50F, it'd stay on during the winter. For now, the water jacket will stay full of water, but that'll get drained after every use during the winter. The heating elements will melt if they turn on with no water in it.

Without knowing a lot more about it, I'm only making SWAGs, so I look forward to seeing the pictures. But if the manufacturer intended it to be plug connected and didn't provide a way to shut it off, that's considered a poor design practice and probably makes it non-compliant with UL and CSA (and probably illegal in a commercial facility (especially if OSHA has authority there)). That doesn't mean that we can't find a way to make it safe, and possibly compliant, but with 240 Volt equipment, it just isn't safe to use the plug as the switch.

If the manufacturer intended it to be hard wired, they had some idea of how it would be switched and probably provided a spec to the original purchaser. Usually, a person does not directly switch that much current. Metal melts and sparks fly when switching. Contactors are specifically designed for that and are used when switching more than a few Amps. But given that it has operated for all these years, presumably for much longer than 3 hours at a time, I'm very curious about how it's getting away with it. Once I understand it better, I can help you find safe parts to use.

[Cedar Eater]

This 3-Pole Switch (http://m.globalindustrial.com/m/p/motors/motors-controls/disconnect-switches/standard-toggle-switch-50-amp-600v-3-poles) and 6AWG wiring is what I would have to recommend unless we discover that it isn't actually powering both elements simultaneously. The switch isn't cheap. It's 3-pole, but you would only connect 2, unless you want to switch the neutral. I wouldn't switch the ground.

[Amber Gold]

So it took me a bit to get the pics, but I got them.

Below are two pics of the wiring. One is of the heating element (one on each side). The elements are 240V, 4500W = 37.5A. The other pic is of the dist. box. The SEW power feed comes in on the upper right, the upper left goes to the thermostat, and the two lower ones go to each of the heating elements. Not sure if this helps you out at all. The thermostat doesn't have an off setting...it goes as low as 100F. Either I unplug it when I want it off, use a switch, or use the breaker. Either one will work.

So, I'm looking at a 50 amp 2-pole breaker and 6/2 copper wire...8/2 if 75C wire is cheaper.

1181611817

[Cedar Eater]

Without a pic of the thermostat, I can't tell if it's rated to switch that much current. I don't know of any thermostats rated higher than 30 Amps. The thermostat and the wires to and from it are the keys to whether this is a safe system. The lack of detail about it is frustrating my attempt to offer good advice. Even with a pic, I might not be able to tell, but I can't even tell how many wires are going to the thermostat and how many are coming back. There should be at least two of each and they should be larger than the wires shown. This installation appears to be be unsafe due to insufficient conductors to and from the thermostat. It's as if someone just added another heating element in parallel without considering the consequences. Until I had this straightened out, I would advise disconnecting one of the heating elements at the element and capping the wires.

[Cedar Eater]

I looked at the photo of the distribution box again and changed my comments in the post above. The feeder to the element on the lower right shows a lot of jacket that appears to be underground "Romex", basically the underground version of NM. I suspect that element was added as an afterthought. That's the one I would disconnect.

[Cedar Eater]

Based on what I can see, there appears to be a fairly easy fix for this. Use a 50A 2-pole breaker and 6AWG to feed the canner. At the canner distribution box, add 2 - 20Amp 2-pole switches, one for each element. They are cheap (like $6) from Home Depot. Feed one switched element with the thermostat. Feed the other switched element without the thermostat only when you need lots of heat. Turn both elements off before unplugging. That gives you flexibility. You may find that you sometimes need to leave the one element on and let the other be controlled by thermostat. There's a little risk from accidentally leaving the one element on too long, but that can be fixed with another thermostat if you don't want that risk. You probably won't be able to add these switches directly to the distribution box unless you can add an extension on top of it.

[Amber Gold]

Why not put a single 2-pole switch between the dist. box and the element? It'd still be controlled by thermostat. Put one on each element and it'd switch the power off...right?

CE. Appreciate your input on this.

[Cedar Eater]

Why not put a single 2-pole switch between the dist. box and the element? It'd still be controlled by thermostat. Put one on each element and it'd switch the power off...right?

CE. Appreciate your input on this.

It does not appear that the wires going to and coming back from the thermostat are big enough to handle the load of both elements. To be big enough, they would have to be 6AWG. I also seriously doubt that the thermostat's contacts are rated for more than 30 Amps. If you separate one of the elements from control by the thermostat, both of those deficiencies are bypassed.

[Mel]

They aren't, but I would be hard pressed to find a 2-pole 50 Amp switch for turning this device on if it was hard wired. The thermostat would be the day-to-day switch. The breaker would be the safety disconnect.

Wouldn't something like this do what you want?

http://www.supplyhouse.com/MARS-80317-MARS2-60A-Fused-Disconnect

Or am I missing something?

Or this?:

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Topaz-ACD48-AC-Disconnect-Switchable-Non-Fused-60-Amps-120-240V

[Cedar Eater]

Wouldn't something like this do what you want?

http://www.supplyhouse.com/MARS-80317-MARS2-60A-Fused-Disconnect

Or am I missing something?

Or this?:

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Topaz-ACD48-AC-Disconnect-Switchable-Non-Fused-60-Amps-120-240V

Disconnects are made for taking equipment out of service for working on it. They are there to isolate the equipment from the grid. They are not intended to be routinely used as switches because they don't have contacts that are designed to suppress arcs. They are intended to be opened while the circuit is not under load and closed while the load is not expected to draw much current initially. They can be used as emergency disconnects while the equipment is under load, because in an emergency, arc suppression is not your highest priority, but they will fail prematurely if used routinely as switches.

The second one says "switchable", but it doesn't specify the duty rating. It appears to be basically a circuit breaker minus the overload and short circuit detection and tripping mechanisms. If it means switchable in the same way that circuit breakers are, it would have the same reasons for not routinely using it for switching. As with circuit breakers, it might work for many years if it's only switched daily for 1-2 months per year, but it would not have the duty rating of the switch I spec'd.

[Cedar Eater]

Just in case you want to upgrade the heating elements to 5000 or 5500W in the future, you might want to switch each element with a 2-pole 30 Amp switch (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-30-Amp-Industrial-Double-Pole-Switch-White-R62-03032-2WS/100356941). They aren't that much more expensive.

[Amber Gold]

Thanks CE. I know what I need to do now.