Another large maple land transfer

[JoeJ]

A logger friend told me about a large timber land purchase in Sandgate, VT. The company, Madava Holdings bought 2,314 acres for $6,579,000. on 12-29-2014. Pretty good money in maple timber lands since the seller bought the same piece in 2006 for $3,323,000.

[Jcrawfo]

I think it's that crown maple outfit out of duchess county ny. Google it it's pretty interesting.

[southfork]

Great to see the maple industry and Crown Maple on the move. If this becomes developed as a sugarbush it means more American jobs within the maple sector, and more American product. Excellent all the way around.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

wall street is on the move, I also heard something about mid vermont supposedly

[Parker]

Wow,, lets see where bulk prices go with all the money is no object expansion and almost free goverment equipment ..eerrrrrrr,,,,,,,,,dont think we will ever see $4 A pound agine. Great for the equipment manufactures and people employed in the various sectors,,,but ,, retailing your syrup is going to be key to surviving,,,imho

[3GoatHill]

Is this another step in the corporate takeover or am I just being paranoid? I'm not being smart, I'm just wondering if stuff like this will hurt the little guys.

[Parker]

Well,,,,yahh,,,if your a littel bulk producer putting out 30 bbls a year and the price was 2.80 a pound .........lets see where the bulk price goes in 5 years....

[mellondome]

Price is set by Canada federation... and really... paranoid because someone with money wants to get involved in agriculture? You should be more worried about your government taking away your rights while you sleep. Forcing you to spend money on a product the you don't want because the fine for not spending that money with big pharmaceutical is more tax. Drones in homeland airspace that are armed? Communication hijacking and data mining without court oversites of citizens? State department using their own email servers outside of accountability.... then running for president? China buying up American debt, corporations and ports like lottery tickets on mega jackpot drawing night? And your paranoid of someone tapping more trees than you in a country that as a whole only produces roughly 15% of the world supply?

Did I miss something?

If they are going to tap them, it sure beats seeing all that timber driving by on the back of a truck, headed for a shipping container and bound for china.


Maybe we should embrace the fact that they are raising the price in the retail markets that they serve.. and help with the ripple effect to the benefit of all producers.

[3GoatHill]

I was thinking more along the lines of the retail prices dropping because they are able to make more product with less cost. I don't know how the whole thing works, that's why I'm asking.

[southfork]

Mellondome understands it, good post.

[Mark-NH]

when you pay 6 million for the property before you start setting up for sugaring I don't know how they're going to drive the price down.

[Parker]

I agree we have lots and lots of important things to be thinking about in these interesting times...........i do believe that while canada sets the price now the u.s. has an enormous untapped resource and while a few of these big opperations are not going to affect the market a bunch of them would,,,,,couple this with the goverment assistance programs and the bennift of filing a schedual F tax return and i think we will see supply increase alot....i guess i dont see how more producers is going to drive the retail price up and we will all bennifit from rising prices, if you could explaine that i would be grateful..(mabey that part of the whole kenseyian economics thing that i also dont get but so many are fond of)..And as for parinoid? Im simply making a comment based on what i see around me ,i could very well be wrong and i hope i am............l think more ag use for land is a great thing and i tip my hat at anyone who thinks they are up for the challange but i think the goverment should not be giving money to the best grant writers. I dont begrudge anyone that takes the grant money but when you do you put yourself at a competitive advantage.

[wdchuck]

If you've been a student of history and economics, you'll find we're in a parallel with the dairy industry circa 1960 0r so. ......and any time corporate business starts getting involved with small business, things don't work out worth a **** for small business...............oh, and reaganomics hasn't worked out so well either. I could go on, and on, and on.....

[southfork]

One thing to remember is that Crown markets to the consumer and creates maple demand, actually buys more syrup from producers than it produces.

Unfortunately many producers simply create more maple syrup, bid to two or three buyers and sell to the highest bidder. Sound familiar? If so you didn't help the industry at all, you diluted the price for those who have been invested into the industry for years.

There is no good answer to the trends in agribusiness. Jealousy of wealth and financial success sounds a lot like our current administration. This ideology will not solve the pressures on producers in the current litigious and regulatory demanding society of food consumers. As a producer, either create a niche, follow the trends, or lose your relevancy.

[Parker]

Im hardly jelous of wealth Or the success that comes from hard work. Im simply trying to make the point that the industry is rapidly turning into something very diffrent than it has historicaly been and the govermet handouts are partially responsibel,,,imho
We can look to the dairy industry as woodchuck pointed out or to the atlantic fishing fleet to see the results of goverment "helping out producers And making them more efficiant". The set up is usally the same, new regulations are implamented and the govt. Sets up programs to "help" the producer meet the requirments of the new regulations. The best grant writers reap the rewards and get more efficiant and produce a larger share of the crop at a lower price per unit. Overproduction drives down the price and squeezes the littel guy out. That is why i said retailing your crop is going to be so important in the comming years.....

[220 maple]

Great News, now maybe we can solve the worldwide shortage of Maple Syrup, if the articles are correct there is only 68 million pounds of syrup setting in the cartels warehouse in Canada. That won't last long!
On a brighter note I heard the other day that the bulk syrup buyer down here is paying 2:10 a pound for any grade. That was good news! I asked last summer what was going to happen with all the increase of production? His reply you can make money at 2 dollars a pound. At this point I hope everyone realizes I try making my point thru humor. This leads me to my new favor saying! Does the falling price of bulk syrup make a sound if everyone is in the woods adding taps?

Mark 220 Maple

[Parker]

I wish this fourm had a "like" or thumbs up button.
Now how dose increased production add to the increased price we all get? I was really hoping for that response? I have 1500 taps i could add,,,but,,im on the fence as to wether its worth it,,,,,,2 a pound does not work for me....

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Think im going to open up market and put Vermont Maple Syrup For Sale sign in my parents front yard in AZ see how that goes.
2 LB=22 Gal bulk, 260x11=2860x2=5720
45galx260=11,700

[wdchuck]

Parker- good call on the like button- maybe the mod will catch this..............andfolks, if you don't believe that higher production leads to lower prices- Syrup spiked at $4/lb not too long ago after a couple short years.....everyone started to add on taps, now everywhere I've been this past year, people are going from 2500, 3000 taps to 10,000. Prices have been falling every year since that $4 high. Yes, you can say that the federation has things all under control, but that only works to our advantage half the time. US surpluses mean lower prices. ....period. The race to the bottom is on and I'm glad I have my own secure market and I'm insulated from bulk syrup. My worry is how low can it go before some of these big expansions of formerly small to mid size producers are no longer profitable enough? A lot of these folks are budgeting on the days of $2.70-$2.80/lb which aint happening.

[DrTimPerkins]

Prices spiked from about $2.80/lb to $4.00/lb due to the fact that we had a few short years in succession and the Federation surplus (strategic reserve) was empty. Those prices lasted only a short time. My feeling is that those prices HURT maple producers more than they helped, primarily because the commercial buyers (for ingredients), who purchase substantial quantities of syrup, could not absorb such a huge increase in price that quickly, so a large number of them dropped maple as an ingredient in their food formulations. Cracker Barrel is another good example, going from a pure maple syrup to a blend (with little maple syrup in it). That never came back. That ingredient market has been returning strongly in the past several years, but that is only because of the price stability. Growth in production in the U.S. came about largely due to high (U.S. $2.80-2.90/lb) prices due to the fact that U.S. and Canadian currency was at par (or close to it) for several years and the Federation was slowly pushing bulk prices up. That growth in the U.S. has not affected prices at all. Prices are essentially set by the Federation, and then the currency exchange, and transportation cost to the packer is applied to that price. The large expansions I know of aren't bulking their syrup, but are developing new markets and new products that might actually expand the market. While there is no good way to predict what will happen with supply (probably going up), the market (probably going up...at least right now), currency values (who knows) or new products/markets, there are obviously some people who are bullish (expanding production) and some who are less so. Superimposed on this is the question of what the Federation might do to counter the increasing competition/production in the U.S. Only time will tell on most of these things. I guess my personal opinion is to, "make hay when the sun shines", although I also wouldn't budget on syrup at $4.00/lb, or even $2.80/lb for a little while. But if you can make money at $2.00/lb, then there is still some room for growth.

[southfork]

If consumption remains the same, or decreases, then increased production will likely yield lower bulk prices. We all get that!!!!

What are producers doing to improve awareness, develop new uses....... and increase the maple syrup demand?

This thread began by bashing Crown. Did anyone actually review their website, social media, mass media, business model, bulk syrup prices paid, live tour turn out, and Madava marketing efforts? As a producer, are you doing your part to get maple syrup in front of mass audiences? I for one have not been, shame on me.

[southfork]

I agree with Dr. Perkins. Note that he stated to the effect....... some large producers are creating their own demand, not bulking syrup.

For those "bulkers" in the audience, review Crown's model before you bash them for ruining your bulk price through their own expansions. They may actually be packing your syrup if it is organic certified, and quality. The industry needs buyers and packers.

[Parker]

Who is bashing anyone? Stating facts is not bashing......i am simply stating that the markets and players are dramaticaly changing and that will have a big impact on prices going forward. Irrational exuberance hurts producers that are wearing rose colerd glasses while considering expensive equipment upgrades and tap expansion.
Like the good doctor said, if you an make money at $2 then get that new r.o and add 10000 taps.
or have the govt. Get you that new ro and super duper efficiant evaporator....then you can afford to add even more taps and better vacuum......and really put some bbls. Out...

[Revi]

A lot of the big producers up on the Canadian border here in Maine were working on land owned by Enron. When they went under a maple flooring company bought it and cut anything that wasn't tapped. There are huge landowners up there, and most of the taps are leased.

[sjdoyon]

Dr. Perkins, great feedback on the topic. You addressed all three primary issues. I was looking at business model five years out and budgeted a price of $2.00/lb.
Question I'm asking myself "what does the future hold for 10,000 tap operations"? Do you have to expand to 40/50k taps.
Living in interesting times for the maple industry.


Prices spiked from about $2.80/lb to $4.00/lb due to the fact that we had a few short years in succession and the Federation surplus (strategic reserve) was empty. Those prices lasted only a short time. My feeling is that those prices HURT maple producers more than they helped, primarily because the commercial buyers (for ingredients), who purchase substantial quantities of syrup, could not absorb such a huge increase in price that quickly, so a large number of them dropped maple as an ingredient in their food formulations. Cracker Barrel is another good example, going from a pure maple syrup to a blend (with little maple syrup in it). That never came back. That ingredient market has been returning strongly in the past several years, but that is only because of the price stability. Growth in production in the U.S. came about largely due to high (U.S. $2.80-2.90/lb) prices due to the fact that U.S. and Canadian currency was at par (or close to it) for several years and the Federation was slowly pushing bulk prices up. That growth in the U.S. has not affected prices at all. Prices are essentially set by the Federation, and then the currency exchange, and transportation cost to the packer is applied to that price. The large expansions I know of aren't bulking their syrup, but are developing new markets and new products that might actually expand the market. While there is no good way to predict what will happen with supply (probably going up), the market (probably going up...at least right now), currency values (who knows) or new products/markets, there are obviously some people who are bullish (expanding production) and some who are less so. Superimposed on this is the question of what the Federation might do to counter the increasing competition/production in the U.S. Only time will tell on most of these things. I guess my personal opinion is to, "make hay when the sun shines", although I also wouldn't budget on syrup at $4.00/lb, or even $2.80/lb for a little while. But if you can make money at $2.00/lb, then there is still some room for growth.

[sapmaple]

I've heard from a couple of sources that Quebec did not do so good this year and the federation will be using up some of there reserve So I think were good for the short term next couple of years If we all do as much as we can to promote maple and the big packers expand there marketing teams we will be fine barring anything real dramatic happening.
sjdoyon I don't think having to expand 400% will be necessary I'm trying to get near that 10,000 mark and have geared all my equipment to handle that. Major equipment should be good for 20 years and after things are paid for try to contain cost after that I'll be ready for the happy house and if my son wants to carry on he can expand and grow ( a plan to shoot for, goals to reach, challenges to face, isn't that what life is all about)

[super sappy]

=Just some info from sugarbush info http://www.thinkdutchess.com/financing/cfa-redc/#sthash.A78amDpD.dpuf -hope this comes in as a link

[twitch]

I think if I spent 6 million on a sugar bush I would want to keep the price up to get my 6 million dollars back not drop it so it would take longer to get my money back and then would make less in the future. I would think they would expand markets and get large accounts that a small producer can't go after. I never plan on selling bulk any how would rather get paid to market it retail But I only make 80 so if i can keep it local it moves faster then syrup that is made elsewhere sitting on the same shelf. So maybe they should be worried about the little guys. Just enjoy it and sell at a price you can make money at I know bulk is not where it is at for me.

[Foremaple]

Several years ago my wife wrote one email to the makers of wheat thins about stopping their use of high fructose corn syrup. Their response was that they had no plans of changing because there is no good reason to. Apparently a few other folks wrote to the company as well because they stopped using it. It would be interesting to see every member of this site write a short, polite email to a company like Cracker Barrel to see if we could sway their choices back towards Pure Maple.

If consumption remains the same, or decreases, then increased production will likely yield lower bulk prices. We all get that!!!!

What are producers doing to improve awareness, develop new uses....... and increase the maple syrup demand?

This thread began by bashing Crown. Did anyone actually review their website, social media, mass media, business model, bulk syrup prices paid, live tour turn out, and Madava marketing efforts? As a producer, are you doing your part to get maple syrup in front of mass audiences? I for one have not been, shame on me.