New, to me, pump

[maple flats]

I just bought another pump last night, was told it was an SP22. When I got it cleaned off, I could read enough of the tags, that I now see it is from RV Pump Co., and it is a BB 4. Can anyone give me any info on a BB 4? In capacity, how does it compare with an SP22? How many RPM should it be run?. It seems to work, but I still need to do some work on it.

[WMF]

Flats,
The BB-4 is about 20% bigger than the SP-22. About 13 cfm @15" . Should turn about 400 rpm.
Good pump , I had one running 1200 taps a few years ago in the low 20" range with ease.

[maple flats]

Is that the best I can look for? The CFM is OK, only if my system is truly tight, but I had 18" on my Alamo 75, I was hoping to get to 24-26" with a tight system and 1000 taps max, would only be 850 next year.
My plan was to move the Alamo to my sugarhouse bush, put an electric motor on it and tap the roughly 200-225 I can get there but I'll need a few sap ladders or I'll need to collect at the low end and then pump to the sugarhouse., and to put the new pump (the BB 4) on the 850-1000 tap bush with higher vac by enough to be worth the change. Now I'm beginning to wonder. WMH are you saying the BB 4 is only 13 CFM @ 15", or that it is 13 CFM bigger than the SP22?

[Bucket Head]

Dave,

From the same paperwork I mentioned in another post: BB4 specifications- 14.5 CFM at 15" vacuum. 390rpm with a 3 1/4" diameter pulley and 420rpm with a 3 1/2" diameter pulley. Same rpm's as a SP22. However, the SP22 is rated at 11cfm at 15" of vacuum.

Steve

[maple flats]

It sounds like the BB 4 might be better as long as the rings and other internal parts are good. Either may struggle to give very high vacuum on the 1000 taps that woods will max out at. Going back to the drawing board.
Maybe I might be better off leaving the Alamo 75 and adding after market oilers with higher flow capability and just run the BB 4 at the sugarhouse on maybe a max of 250 taps (only about 160 on sugars).

[Bucket Head]

I'm almost certain the Alamo's (vanes) have more cfm than the piston pumps. I only have a little bit of info on the vane pumps, and I don't think what I have is for a "75" model, but I'll check.

[maple flats]

I also think the 75 has considerably more CFM. I don't know for sure, but I heard someplace that the 75 moves 75 CFM@15" when at design RPM, but is could just as easily be 75 CFM @ 0", I just don't know. Maybe it could be someplace in between too. I do know that the vacuum fitting on the pump is 1.5" on the 75 (as well as the 30 I have) while the corresponding fitting on the BB 4 is only 1.25". I suspect that may well be an indicator.

[Bucket Head]

Dave,

The info I have is for Type D, F and H vane pumps, all of which were discontinued when the Alamo's came out. Alamo's were introduced in 1965.

Type D was rated for 25cfm @ 15" and Type F was 35cfm. Type H -"approx. 110cfm according to Babson Vacuum flow meter readings".

[BreezyHill]

I just bought another pump last night, was told it was an SP22. When I got it cleaned off, I could read enough of the tags, that I now see it is from RV Pump Co., and it is a BB 4. Can anyone give me any info on a BB 4? In capacity, how does it compare with an SP22? How many RPM should it be run?. It seems to work, but I still need to do some work on it.

I have a bb4 also. Great unit! It is larger than the sp-22 by a small amount. Be certain to clean the rotor in the top. Headed to visit kids in college for lax game for the girl friend but will dig out the dealer book in the morning for rpms.

Their is night and day difference between a rotary pump and a piston pump. Piston can do the same work to get a tight system evacuated it just takes more time. On a leak prone system you want a rotary pump.

Alamo comes in two body sytles small body 30 & 40 and large body 60-100. By changing the pulleys and motor Hp source you get more CFMs 100 or 100+is usually a direct drive unit. Flood oil is tricky with an Alamo. To much oil and you make a lot of heat. Alamo has a fantastic reclaimer design that is great for maple especially with the temp gauge. A quick visit to Home Depot and get a box of copper tubing and you can redo the drippers with some extra length...18" is plenty for some extra cooling capacity for the oil prior to the dripper.

Don't use the normal plastic line...it will fail with the heat we make at higher vac levels.

Clean the timing head of the BB4 very well and she will treat you right. the exhaust filter will likely need replacing also. Go to the dollar store for that; or build a 20# reclaimer and she wont be as loud. Those are big jugs to have to listen too.

My Dad installed our BB 4 for my grandfather the second to last year of milking. They ran 4 buckets and it takes 8 cfm to run a bucket. She replaced the BB 1 I have that did only one bucket. Took no time at all to milk his 28 cows then.

100 = 52cfm 5.5 hp
75 = 45 cfm 5 hp
60 = 32 cfm 3.5 hp
50 = 28 cfm 2.4 hp

For 75 cfm you need to get into the delaval 84 and 87 units or the masport M7 and larger pumps.

The Alamo number was the Herd size the pump was recommended for not the CFM rating. The Alamo 30 was for a 30 cow herd and75+ was for a 75 or larger herd.

This are CFM at 15" vac for 25" you generally are looking at 30% or less depending on the design of the setup and the wear on the housing on rotary pumps. Piston pumps it is the rings that determine your vac level and the cylinder wall. Oil starved cylinders will have mush lower readings due to scoring and heat damage.

Oil level in a BB 4 is on the clear sight tube with the unit off just like the sp series.

[maple flats]

Thanks Breezy, based on what the Alamo's were used for that number designation really makes sense. I'll await your further information.
When I bought the BB 4 it was plugged in and running. I didn't think it was real loud, but then I'm comparing apples and oranges (really gas engine driven vs. elec. motor).

[BreezyHill]

Ok just found the book.

BB4 is 27/29 cfm at 390/420 rpm on the pump and 2.5 qts oil
SP - 22 is 20/22 CFM at 390/420 rpm on the pump and 1.5 qts oil
SP - 11 is 9/10 CFM at 440/475 rpm on the pump and 1 Qt oil

Looking at the list of nearly all pumps made by or for surge RPMs of pumps vary from as low as 390 to as high as 510. Some models at different times have 4 rpms listed depending on updates and manufacture dates.

Ben

[Wanabe1972]

Breezy I ran my backup pump this year Alamo 30+ since my delaval was down with a spun main shaft. Some days it would run the entire drip cup of oil and other days it would hardly use any. The vacuum was low on this pump all year but was the same everyday. Is this normal to use varying amounts of oil from day to day?

[BreezyHill]

No, can be caused by a few things:
dripper that is partially plugged...disassemble the dripper and clean with carb cleaner and the red straw on the can to clear any debris
a cracked cup can leak and show air bubbles rising from the base of the cup
cracked plastic line showing bubbles
collapsed plastic line from heat from the pump
debris in the oil feed line

Typically on a hotter day you go thru more oil due to the oil thinning.

Use a non contact infared thermometer to check the temp from side to side on the pump. If there is not enough oil coming in one side will be hotter than the other. If the temp is over 215 you are headed for trouble.

Last season I had a pump that run 165-180 all the time. One day she was at 210. I put a fan on her thinking just a hot day. Checked the oil that night and drain off the condensation and there was far more condensation than normal and found a partially plugged oil feed tube, Opened the condensation drain and drained the oil and flushed with diesel fuel and found several oil boogers. Refilled with new oil and she was back to 170 on the hottest day of the season.

Low vac does not always mean a pump issue. I had low vac most all season and it was leaks that escaped detection. Hard to hear a faulty drop next to a roaring brook.

I would have to guess that a season long issue was a missed leak but there could be a stuck vane that would also raise the same issue. very hard to detect in an Alamo as they use Kevlar vanes and make little sound when they slide out when rotating by hand. Your delaval makes a distinctive click when the metal vane hits the housing when hand spun.

When welding the rotor to the shaft penetrate the rotor well but careful on the shaft as there is an oil path in the shaft to pull oil into the bushing on the face cover thru the feeder tube.

Easy job as long as you grease the shaft well on the ends to keep splatter off of the milled surfaces. Check all vanes for free movement and the shaft as splatter can be a PITA with this job.

Good Luck Jeff!

[Wanabe1972]

I will go through this pump this summer but hope not to need it as the delaval is back together. I made a new modified shaft for the 73 instead of welding it has a flange on it and is pinned to the rotor. I also used retaining compound so it should not slip again. 11748117491175011751

[BreezyHill]

Jeff, looks good.

Did you put the shaft center oil channel in and port it to the bushing at the inlet point and to the #1 vane in the rotor?

[Wanabe1972]

Ben, The original shaft for this pump was a straight cut shaft no oil holes or groove. The hole you see in the original shaft was a quick repair to get it through until my spare was plumbed in. This pump has no bushings just 2 bearings and 2 spacers. I also dont see anything on the rotor that would require timing and to what would it time to? If i am missing something please advise as i have no manual on this pump and have reassemble as i took it apart. This does not mean someone else did not omitt parts in the past. Thanks Jeff

[Wanabe1972]

Breezy I think we are talking about 2 differant pumps i wrote 73 when mine is a model 74 that has no oil bath. There is nothing special to do on the 74 is there?

Thanks jeff

[BreezyHill]

On an original Delaval 73 shaft there is a set screw in the face plate end. The oil feed tube matches to a hole in a bushing. This hole then lines up with the hole in the shaft that goes to the oil channel in the shaft. The hole needs to be timed to the #1 vane so that it is sucking on so that it can pull the oil from the reservoir below the pump. All other vanes 2,3,& 4 will have pressure and not pull oil from the reservoir.

Since the shaft has bearings on both ends and the shaft is solid it has been rebuilt before.

Does it still have metal vanes or are they Kevlar or another fiber type vane?

[Wanabe1972]

I wrote the wrong pump it is a 74 not a 73 and has no oil bath on it. It just has a four bolt flange on the bottom for mounting.

[maple flats]

Breezy, I'm trying to decide which way I should go. I have one woods with 850 taps and about 1000 max (woods A), another with 470 and it could go to only about 500 max (woods B), then I have around my sugarhouse, possible 160 sugars and about 150 more on reds (woods C).
At woods A I have an Alamo 50-100, running at about 470 RMP and getting 17" vacuum. At woods B I have an Alamo 30-40, turning at 460 RPM and getting 19", but that is on a vacuum tank and I regulate it to 19" so I don't implode the tank. At woods C I have only ever tapped on gravity with a max of 190 taps (160 sugar, 30 reds). The 2 Alamos are both running using 6.5 HP Hondas. The new BB4 has an electric motor, and I could change to another 6.5 Honda (I have 2 more ready to go). Since I can only go with 19" at woods B, that may be good unless I get a releaser and not use that tank as a vacuum tank. So I'm trying to decide if I'd be better off swapping the pump at woods A and use the BB4 with 6.5 Honda, and then bring the pump from A to the sugarhouse and put the electric motor on it, and add a releaser and try to get 24-25". Which is likely better for total production?
Another question, you said in reply #9 you said to be sure to clean the rotor in the top. If I open it up, will this be straight forward? I have general mechanical skills but I'm not a mechanic. I do however have a brother-in-law who is a very good mechanic and has lots of free time since he is on permanent disability from a very bad truck accident.

[BreezyHill]

I like the Alamo style since rotary will remove more air faster and over come leaks better. But if you have a tight system then the BB4 being piston style will often pull a higher vac unless the rotary is in good shape.

At the sugar house I would not use the BB4 as I don't like the sound a piston pump makes. I would set it at woods B. The top rotor is the valve body for exhaust. It it gets dirty or out of time then it can cause issues. Mark her alignment on removal for cleaning and return to the original alignment.

On the larger woods you should be getting more vac out of the large body Alamo if she is in good shape. I would open the cover and she what she looks like. I expect the housing is wavy and maybe even scored or the face plate(s) are scored to only pull in the teens.

Is there a dripper feeding the inlet on the Alamos and do you have the original reclaimers?

Ben