unrest in the Federation

[can'twaitforabigrun]

Here is a detailed article describing producers in Quebec who are attempting to sell syrup outside the federation. The federation has taken drastic measures that include hiring security guards to watch producers as they make their syrup. I propose boycotting all syrup and other agricultural products from Quebec. Suprised to see, Ray Bonnenberg, head of the Ontario Maple Syrup Producers Association quoted in the article. His sugarshack is 5 minutes down the road from my place http://business.financialpost.com/features/how-a-maple-syrup-rebellion-is-growing-in-quebec

[adk1]

I haven't read the article but I would not even make syrup under those circumstances that is a dictatorship

[tuckermtn]

thanks for the link - excellent article. glad i am not a maplehaulic in quebec...

[spud]

I feel for the producers north of the border. I don't think there is an easy solution to all of this. It appears some like it and some hate it. I guess if you're only going to get 75% of your money you just have to plan ahead. The article did say that Canada's largest buyer of their syrup is the good ol USA. If we were to stop buying their syrup then our syrup prices ( might ) go up. This might also help the American Maple industry. Although it could have a negative affect also. The American packers would then have all the power and that might not be a good thing either. It does not matter if you make syrup in Canada or USA you can be sure the middle man will make more from your syrup then you do. The only way for an American to make more is to find their own market and cut out the middle man. If your North of the border and you try to cut out the middle man then you pay a fine or go to jail. That's not right at all. When maple sugaring was a way to supplement your income the government never got involved. All these problems started when Maple Sugaring became a money making industry.

Spud

[lastwoodsman]

Just ticks me off to watch. The guard is no different than the Gestapo. No different than Nazi Germany.
I hate socialism!

[saphound]

.. glad i am not a maplehaulic in quebec...

Me too. Can you imagine a security guard in your sugar shack 24/7 watching your every move, slapping tamper proof seals on your barrels as you fill them...and then paying 1000.00 a day to have them there? wtf

[unc23win]

Thanks for sharing in certainly makes one realize how lucky we are in the USA in more ways than one. I have had thoughts about a co-op of sorts as well there are some very old co-ops for crops and milk and such that have done very well although I am sure each has endured difficulties at times. I can see where it would be very hard to get everything to work, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work.

[BreezyHill]

Can't wait,
Wondering if the maple industry is the same as the dairy in the respects to quota production. In dairy you cant just start selling milk you have to purchase quota shares from a retiring or selling off farmer.
I hauled cattle to north of Montreal from a local farm down here. The new farm owner was in his mid 20's and had bought his dads quota and a neighbors and was adding on cows to the home farm. He could have added the cows on his own but any milk over quota would gain him very little money in his milk check.

Is this system still used and is this how maple is run to keep supply and demand in check?

Further more: We have a beef farm that we raise angus cattle on and do sell freezer meat as well as animals thru the auction. The Taxation state of New York has sent out to some producers a form to file with your Check Off Funds for the past year or years for any animals that were sold thru private treaty or slaughtered. Since all animals born on the farm and that leave the farm are to have a farm id tag installed in their ear and these tags are received from the state this is rather easy to track. So the US is in the same position as Canada on Socialistic enforcement of policy. I totally understand that the check off $$$ is supposed to got to advertising for increased sales but I have been to several meetings and seen other things that were funded by these funds that is not releated to furthering the purchase of beef.

So don't think for a moment that we, the maple producer, is insulated from this sort of stuff in the future. Right now we are in a good place and we need to stay banded together so that we continue to protect ourselves and our liberties. The best way to do this is to continue to produce high quality products in safe structures and follow recommended sanitation procedures for the equipment we use. Grade and label correctly and visit those that do not and try to explain the damage they are causing to our industry. I have a local producer that I was told a few days ago had all but one plastic bottle on a store shelf was moldy when checked by the store owner after a customer complaint. The product was thin and sounded like it was not density check prior to bottling. This is not how we gain market share over imported product but how we loose to imported product. While typing this post I received a request to come and supply a store that is dissatisfied with their current supplier. Good for me but how many customers have been lost from poor product or supply issues?

We all need to keep an eye on quality control to keep customer satisfaction at high levels to keep or product useage up during poor economic times.

Ben



Thanks Ben

[Bruce L]

Hi Ben, we used to be in the dairy industry, and yes the quota system is still in place. A young farmer has really no way of starting unless an inheritance because of the cost and lack of quota available. No cattle can leave our beef farm now without the special tag with a barcode in it that identifies your farm, at a cost of around $4.00 per head. Even sending a cow to slaughter last fall for myself I still had to put a tag in for the 30 minute ride there.
I most wholeheartedly agree with policing ourselves in the maple industry. I will not allow anything to leave here that I would not consume myself, yet I know of an individual who passed away that used to make syrup, and was nothing but a sore spot for the industry.He would allow sap to sit for weeks at a time until he got enough to boil late in the season, and he would simple state"I don't have to eat it". I see some posts on here where I have read about smelly sap, buckets full of flies, moths etc, and still think you can make good saleable syrup from it. I guess you can talk yourself into anything, but the point is it doesn't look good for the industry, you wouldn't want to but that head of lettuce,etc if you saw maggots crawling over it before it was washed off, so why should the consumer receive any syrup that is not as high a quality as possibly can be made?

[DrTimPerkins]

As much as this rankles folks on the U.S. side of the border who are used to operating on the free-market system (mostly), the Federation certainly has done a lot to stabilize prices of syrup. This has had a huge positive impact on Quebec producers, and has kept the price of syrup high on our side of the fence (border) over the past decade too (until the value of the Canadian currency dropped recently). Not saying that it is the way to go here, but the majority of maple producers in Quebec voted it in and support it. With that type of system though, you can't have people on the fringes who bypass the system....otherwise everything falls apart for everyone except those few people. Therefore the "Rebels" must be kept in check. Most of the expansion in the U.S. is happening because of these high syrup prices that are a direct result of the Federation policies (aimed at limiting production and raising prices) and their strong negotiating power against the packers.

Essentially we in the U.S. can do (legally) what the "rebels" in Quebec cannot do, expand our operations and sell to whoever we want for whatever price we agree to. The real question is....how long will it be until the flea (maple producers everywhere else) on the back of the dog (the Federation) gets to be too much of an irritation, and then what will the dog eventually choose to do about it. One small example of that is the recent abrupt drop in price for Commercial and substandard syrup. That is simply the Federation cleaning out a portion of its reserves, but it has resulted in a sharp drop in price of Commercial/Substandard syrup (if you can even sell it). Of course (fortunately), their options are somewhat limited in some respects. If they drop prices across the board to slow U.S. growth, their reserves are instantly worth a lot less than what they have on the books. If they allow Quebec producers to grow, the market will be flooded with syrup very quickly. At this point we (producers in the U.S. and other Canadian Provinces) are still just a relatively small nuisance (but growing troublesomely). If you think the Federation isn't keeping a close eye on things on BOTH sides of the border you are very wrong. The fact that the Canadian Currency has dropped in value is quite helpful to them in several ways.

[David in MI]

Looks like raisin growers in California are having similar issues as well. Price controls never work.
http://dailysignal.com/2015/04/24/will-court-upend-governments-raisin-confiscation-scheme/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=thffacebook

[ttowle3]

. The maple syrup producers who sell directly to consumers are exempted from this law. It is just the big players they are stinging now but the case will go to the supreme court in Ottawa as this is against our charter of rights but dont forget everybody else in the maple syrup world is benefitting from the cartel.

[DrTimPerkins]

One thing the system in Quebec does that is beneficial (at least from my standpoint) is provide adequate money for research and marketing. Syrup is not just syrup....it is QUEBEC syrup. They put that out everywhere. In terms of research, the Federation and equipment manufacturers and government all collaborate to funnel significant amounts of research monies into projects that help the industry. In the U.S. this is absolutely not the case. There is relatively little maple industry money available, perhaps $30-40k annually, to be spread among all researchers. We are constantly having to compete with other commodities for federal research funding, and 95% of the money for agricultural research ends up going to corn, wheat and soybeans. The vast majority of the funding for maple research and Extension originates from the institutions involved. As financial resources have been squeezed over the past decade, we have seen reductions in the number of Extension people working in maple in many areas, with the result that there are very few of us left who still do maple research and outreach....and that is being constantly questioned by our institutions as we are asked more and more to support the maple industry beyond our state borders. Between Extension and research, UVM contributes several hundred thousand $ each year to keep the maple program going. Cornell probably a bit less, but a significant amount regardless. We (UVM) is fortunate right now that we have supportive Deans (Administrators) heading up Extension and the College of Agriculture & Life Sciences, however these resources are not guaranteed in any way to continue under future administrations. Sorry for the rant, but it is frequently one of the more depressing challenges of this job.

[saphound]

. The maple syrup producers who sell directly to consumers are exempted from this law. It is just the big players they are stinging now but the case will go to the supreme court in Ottawa as this is against our charter of rights but dont forget everybody else in the maple syrup world is benefitting from the cartel.

Everyone..except the consumer. Just sayin. I'm not nor ever will be making syrup for sale. I do applaud anyone who does. I have a problem with price manipulation and quotas tho, whether it's for milk, raisins, gasoline, syrup or whatever. No one should be told how much of anything they can produce and post guards to enforce it. I see the good Doctors point in that it brings in research money, but that money is coming out of the producers pockets at the tune of 25% and could take years to get their 75%. And surely the whole 25% isn't going to marketing and research. I hate to say it, but if syrup wasn't 40+ a gallon, FAR more people would be buying it instead of artificial. Wouldn't that also help the industry?

[n8hutch]

[QUOTE=saphound;282769 I hate to say it, but if syrup wasn't 40+ a gallon, FAR more people would be buying it instead of artificial. Wouldn't that also help the industry?[/QUOTE]
I am not so sure cheaper Syrup would create more sales. I think the people who buy syrup would just be buying it cheaper. I think product education and advertising would have a much larger effect. Besides at the rates it costs to produce a gallon of syrup an awfull lot of things would have to change to make selling syrup for less than 40 dollars practical.

[saphound]

You could be right, Nate. If the retail price didn't drop only the middle man would make out. And I sure didn't mean to p anybody off with that comment. I have learned quite a bit about what it costs to make syrup and it's considerable. Smaller operations do need that price..the big guys with 40 to 60 thousand taps, not so sure. It's a big investment, but I suspect they recoup their money a lot faster than the smaller guy. Just saying there should never even be such a thing as a syrup "reserve" sitting on millions of gallons from a consumer point of view. Real maple syrup is a luxury many, many people just simply cannot afford at this price. It's just the cold hard fact. I'm one of them so I thought I'd save some money and make my own. Ended up costing me twice as much, lol. But maybe if real maple syrup was more common on American tables as say corn is, more research money would be easier to come by. Probably never happen though...

[BreezyHill]

IMO as a producer that wholesales it is tough to do that when you also retail. I have a hard time making this great product and then allowing a dealer to make 30-35% as a markup. But if I don't give that level then they will just go to another sorce that will provide that markup.

I am fortunate in that I inherited our family operation and all the equipment. On the other hand I have added thousands of $$$ of equipment and retubing the bush. It is terrifically expensive to produce but I can make as much in 6 weeks as we do with the cattle over the course of nearly two years. Luckily we grew that business when we were young and now it is paying dividends.

Large producers of maple are just like dairy and beef farms: you must maximize your equipment while managing expenses if you intent to turn a profit. How many taps can one person install and maintain while boiling and packing bulk syrup to storage?

I need to do more advertising in a fashion that will give me the return and not others reaping the benefits of my investment.

My middle son is headed to a great marketing college and plans to make this his project.

We all need to market wisely and I agree that funding studies is important but it is just as important to have studies going on in the production areas of maple.

I remember when I first started changing our farm and trying new techniques...ones that were don't on test farms like our weather patterns were far more beneficial than those done even a hundred miles south. We can never plant oats by the 15th of April without compaction and poor stands. So many farms in our area quit doing oats just to find that our yields were as good or better than those that got them in the ground by the golden date.

Maple is less location related but I think more will listen closer when there is a producer near to them that worked with and had results included in a study.

Its like washing lines. When people saw how clean or lines are they started looking at if not doing washing. Sure it is work but it is also marketing at work. We even got a customer from a passer by that stopped to ask how is it running." All done but to wash the lines." we wash them to have a clean, more productive equipment for next season. He backed up and bought a quart...his guy said its a waist of time and makes no difference.

Thanks Dr Tim and Steve Childs for providing the data that it does pay off in at least better production.

Ben

[eagle lake sugar]

I live about 13 miles from the Canadian border and hear all the time about grants being awarded to producers in the 100's of thousands. It's hard to compete with someone who has had their equipment bought and paid for when I've had to earn every penny myself. Canada treats their businesses much differently than here in the U.S. Here we're seen as a target for tax revenue. There's a producer near here who taps 55,000 trees on crown land for free.

[Parker]

Canada is not the only place that has goverment grants that greatly affect the supply of syrup into the market,,here in n.h. and v.t. we can get energy efficincy grants. A friend of mine got a leader 4x14 vortex with a steamaway at a total cost to him of $7000. What did he do next? Added more taps and better vacuum of corse! Now he is making another 300 to 400 gallons a year..i can think of a couple of millionaires that have taken the grant money....like they need it...i wont take a goverment handout because i dont want to saddel my children with what should be my debt. I worked, fought, and scrapped for what i have and i proud of that..(i never have been a very good businessman or politicaly correct)....but, just like the atlantic fishing fleet in the 1980's the goverment is going to "modernize and make the industry more efficiant". Look at our atlantic fishing fleet now..decimated,,,how many jobs lost?....if we are a capitalist country why do we have socialist programs? The goverment picking winners and losers....
So who will succed in the futcher? Those who write the best grant proposals?
kinda more on topic...how cool would it be to find a packer that said "i can buy syrup from canada for 2.30 a pound BUT im getting the same price retail i did last year so i will pay my producers the same bulk price this year.....ha ha ha haha,,,,,,,,,,,keep the faith

[saphound]

Canada treats their businesses much differently than here in the U.S.

That may be true regarding maple businesses..only because it can't be moved offshore. But corporate U.S.A rules this country anymore. Just depends what business your in. U.S. manufacturers can relocate to another country and write off everything involved in the move from building the plants, to training the new workers that take our jobs, to all the travel expenses involved. Now they want to avoid paying any taxes just by moving corporate headquarters elsewhere. The ones that stay, big oil, Haliburton, Monsanto, pharmaceuticals, health care HMO's, ranchers and miners on federal land that pay little to nothing..and on and on...they're making out like the bandits they are.

[Mark]

Canada is not the only place that has goverment grants that greatly affect the supply of syrup into the market,,here in n.h. and v.t. we can get energy efficincy grants. A friend of mine got a leader 4x14 vortex with a steamaway at a total cost to him of $7000. What did he do next? Added more taps and better vacuum of corse! Now he is making another 300 to 400 gallons a year..i can think of a couple of millionaires that have taken the grant money....like they need it...i wont take a goverment handout because i dont want to saddel my children with what should be my debt. I worked, fought, and scrapped for what i have and i proud of that..(i never have been a very good businessman or politicaly correct)....but, just like the atlantic fishing fleet in the 1980's the goverment is going to "modernize and make the industry more efficiant". Look at our atlantic fishing fleet now..decimated,,,how many jobs lost?....if we are a capitalist country why do we have socialist programs? The goverment picking winners and losers....
So who will succed in the futcher? Those who write the best grant proposals?
kinda more on topic...how cool would it be to find a packer that said "i can buy syrup from canada for 2.30 a pound BUT im getting the same price retail i did last year so i will pay my producers the same bulk price this year.....ha ha ha haha,,,,,,,,,,,keep the faith Grants are just the government bribing you with your own money.

[Cedar Eater]

Grants are just the government bribing you with your own money.

Or more likely, they're bribing you with your children's future.

[Parker]

with the country 18 trillion in debt how could anyone feel right taking goverment money That ultimatly will have to be paid back by our children And puts fellow sugarmakers at a competitive disadvantage by increasing supply to an already crowded bulk market?
here is more along the same line. In n.h. 14 pages of new laws were jyst past regarding maple. All the rules are good ideas imho...but...the penalties state "any violation of any rule is a misdomenor,,,and subject to up to 5000 a day fine for each day of continued non compliance,,,,,,WHICH WILL BECOLLECTED BY CIVIL FORFITURE".....agine the goverment picking winners and losers ,,,how? If you have an old sugarhouse with a dirt floor you are not in compliance and to pay to puor concrete might be next to impossiibel...but if you have money to start with you can build a sugarhouse that meets all the laws....how many people has anyone ever heard of getting sick from maple syrup? But we need laws written so the govt. Can take my house,,my daughters futcher..what i have worked for my entire life to make sure i have a concrete floor? Because ? I have been in sugarhouses with dirt floors and kerosean lights boi.ing on lead pans filling galvanized barrels that made fantastic syrup and have seen their lead tests that were well under legal limits. I have been in modern sugarhouses that meet all the laws and are marvels of modern equipment that make syrup that tast like dog sh///t....who is hurting the industry more? Dirt floors or nasty syrup?
May you live in interesting times

[eagle lake sugar]

I feel the same way, Parker. A million dollar restaurant in this area got a grant a couple years ago of 60,000.00 to put a new roof on their business. They have a thriving business and could certainly afford to pay for the repairs, but knew a grant writer who convinced them to get it from the government [taxpayers] for free. I just don't think it's right for Joe taxpayer to foot the bill for another person's business venture. There may be grants available, but I for one, will not pursue them. It would be hypocritical of me. I don't begrudge others who do, more power to you.