Which snowmobile?

[hambone]

I am thinking of adding a snowmobile to our sap hauling fleet. What brands and models have you used and what is your opinion of them? I probably would be looking for an older snowmobile, what features do you feel are necessary? Thanks

[GV2]

I have used a Polaris 550 for about 4 years now to drag a weighted roller (pictured) and drag a weighted flat leveler on my trails. I groom them mostly for x-skiing, but the trails end up in perfect shape for sap season. . During sap collection I either pull a sled loaded with four to six 5-gallon pails using skis or snowshoes, but I think a 550 class machine would do a sap hauling job just fine. Plus if you get stuck the machine is light enough to manhandle. Just one opinion.

[hambone]

Thanks GV2 that looks like a nice set up. Do you think electric start is a must?

[adk1]

I would stay away from a snowmobile if I were you and invest in at least a 500cc 4wd atv with deep lugged tracks. the best of both worlds if you ask me.

[BreezyHill]

Our club has ski doo 550 fan cooled SWT...Supper Wide Track. 24" track float skis...9" wide. These units will pack, break, and work like nothing else. I have driven Yamaha VK groomers and not impressed, The artic cat Bear cat is Good but doesn't have the Hi Low Reverse transmission of a scandics. We had a tree on the trail down and had to bring it to the land owner and we pulled a modified bed liner to the tree and back out of the woods. One scandics pulls a drag with a 6" cutter and the other pulls a 4' wide mogal master style drag that weights in at 490 with the hydraulics and battery on it. The Scandic also has the optional handle bar loop for swing your body way out past the machine for breaking those tough mtn trails.

One time on a scandics and you will not want a different work sled. NYS clubs have a bunch of them and they come up a few times a year. This year there was a dozen or so that were sold off. You can easily pull a 55 gal drum of sap with one of these.

[GV2]

I would say that during sap season, yes. Only because your focus should be on a lot of other tasks ,and not troubleshooting a cold engine. If you are going to get an electric starter be sure to get a battery tender and have hook-up leads installed on your engine. You won't regret it.

[Clinkis]

I have an old 87 ski doo MX. It's a 470 liquid. I've been using it for 7 years for sap hauling. I have a sled I made with a 55 gallon drum on it. Works great. It has no reverse or electric start but starts first pull every time. Snowmobiles are great for early season tapping and sap collection. They are a lot faster and you can get around quicker and don't have to try and spin your way through deep snow with an atv. I dread later in the season when snow melts and have to switch to using my Rhino. It's a lot slower and everything is muddy. First time out with the rhino this year I buried it bad in a snow drift (even with deep lug tires and 4 wheel dif lock) and had to get tractor to pull me out. A couple things.....pack your trails well ahead of time and they will make using sled a lot easier when snow gets soft and will also be the last place it melts. Also, whatever brand or model you get, make sure it's clutched low for better pulling.

[hambone]

Thanks guys, I was hoping I would get all kinds of opinions. I'm leaning towards a Skandic, there are a few for sale around here. Breezyhill has a good opinion of them.

[blucoondawg]

Skandic is a good sled but they can get on the heavy side and if you are dealing with deep snow and you don't have good trails broke you will get stuck. Electric start is nice but it is additional weight, I personally would rather have pull start. Any fan chilled machine will work, the low range is a nice option but not many models have had it for a long time now scandic is probably the only one. Polaris had a long track years ago that was a good utility machine ski doo tundra is a good option too. An ATV with tracks is a very good option, they won't get stuck in deep snow like a snowmobile does but they're expensive

[hambone]

I'm thinking of using my sap hauling trails as cross country ski trails for most of the winter so they should be packed down pretty good. I thought I would plan the trails and widen them this spring and summer. I'm hoping that will decrease the chance of getting stuck. Just wondering if the pull start models are usually good starters and reliable. Like someone suggested I don't want to be tinkering on it to start when I should be gathering sap.

[blucoondawg]

I'm thinking of using my sap hauling trails as cross country ski trails for most of the winter so they should be packed down pretty good. I thought I would plan the trails and widen them this spring and summer. I'm hoping that will decrease the chance of getting stuck. Just wondering if the pull start models are usually good starters and reliable. Like someone suggested I don't want to be tinkering on it to start when I should be gathering sap.
If it won't start with a pull start odds are it isn't going to start with electric start either. Electric start doesn't eliminate starting problems it just makes starting physically easier. If you do get electric start make sure it has a pull start backup, most the older machines do, the new fuel injected 4 strokes don't and I don't like that, your battery craps out and there you sit.

[BreezyHill]

Youdont want to ride with me where I have to break open the mountain trails. Its either a scandics or my Grand touring 500 long track with a couple hundred studs. Three spots you go up at 16-20 degree incline. My wifes old sled artic cat cougar with an ice ripper will do the job but not many others would ride until we broke the trail. this season it was all scandics. Drifts of 8-10 feet were common...guy went to take a leak...stepped off the trail and went past his waist had to pull him out he was stuck and never touched bottom. Still a few feet up there and we are bare ground for over two weeks.

Yes they are heavy but now days there isn't a light sled out there. He have a stable of Puma 340s great on fuel and fast and light. wont pull much of anything but boy they are fun for the sons.

[n8hutch]

I've owned A minimum of 15 sleds, half with electric start & I will never ever ever own a sled w/o it again. Or reverse for that matter

[hambone]

I found a couple mid 90s Skandics- one is Long Track with 380 in it with 1000 miles on the snowmobile. It has just been in shop for magneto work and general check up. The other is a 500 fan with 6500 miles, the guy says it runs great. What do you think?

[n8hutch]

If you do buy a fan cooled sled I would make every attempt to buy non ethanol fuel, and at the very least the highest octane fuel available. Seems like 87 octane fuel with Ethanol in it burns hotter & has led to some piston failure.

[Clinkis]

I found a couple mid 90s Skandics- one is Long Track with 380 in it with 1000 miles on the snowmobile. It has just been in shop for magneto work and general check up. The other is a 500 fan with 6500 miles, the guy says it runs great. What do you think?

The 380 might be lacking a little power. This would be the old 377 fan cooled motor. They are a good engine but not the most powerful for pulling heavy loads of sap. I'd probably lean towards the 500.

[BreezyHill]

If you read the book on the scandics they recommend only 87 octane as low octane is a faster burn and less heat...higher octane more heat and more power. Son is in ag engineering college classes on engine design right now.

We had one piston failure...it was due to a crack in an oil feed line. Dealer tried to say it was also fuel related but then read the manual and said to follow the book. These are not your normal sled and should not be fueled as a normal sled. When they are used for hard work they need the right oil and the right fuel or there will be consequences. Also from a buddy that has a son that races alcohol fueled cars. They claim that alcohol burns alt cooler. He adds alcohol to his fuel for his sleds on long rides to keep them cooler. Doesn't have as much zip but he also gets 10,000 miles out of a sled without any motor issues consistently.

I don't worry about ethonal but I do at stable to all our sleds and all the gas fueled groomers for storage.

[butler]

We use skandic 440 LT. Awesome machine... Super long track and light enough to man handle.. We have been pulling 65 gal ranks behind it now for 5 years, and yes it comes with electric start which is a must!

[n8hutch]

I am a factory trained ski-doo tech and have worked on hundreds of Scandic's, and anyone who knows about fuel & horsepower knows that the higher the octane of the fuel the cooler it burns alowing you to run smaller jets. Do what you wish octane wise but stay away from ethanol.
A cracked oil line will not make a piston fail, it might make one stick but there would be very little wrong with the piston otherwise, bad fuel or low octane fuel can & will eat a piston.

[BreezyHill]

The crack in the line ran about an inch and the motor didn't get oil...thus the piston on the pulley end failed from lack of lubrication. New Piston and cylinder. That's what they told me and showed me the bad parts and the oil line. This is an 06 so the only oil it gets is from the injection system.

[n8hutch]

That sounds about right, I wouldn't call that a piston failure, I would call that a lubrication failure. Pretty safe bet if it sticks on all four sides of the piston that it was oil.

In a 2 stroke engine the oil lubricates the crank & the piston rings - rod bearings, & air cools the cylinder walls, or liquid cools the cylinder walls . the Fuel-Gas cools the piston, as it starts to heat up from working hard the piston can get hot enough to ignite the fuel before top dead center those eliminating the cooling effect on the piston & burning up the aluminum. 87 octane fuel & ethanol have a lower flash point, "will burn" at a lower temperature then higher octane fuel or non ethanol fuel. So yes higher octane does burn at a higher temperature but it leads to lower exhaust temperatures. All the tourq and horsepower is made in the pipe on a 2 stroke so exhaust temperatures are very important. Sorry for hijacking your thread, I agree with the guy who said a 500 or better would be ideal, take a look at the carburetor flanges between the carb & the cylinder, those tend to dry out & crack and that will lead to a engine failure, check the compression if you have a gauge or if a friend does, should be over 125 psi could be as high as 155psi, also both sides should be within 5% of each other.

[hambone]

No problem, I find it interesting. I run non ethanol gas from an airport in my newer chainsaw after it blew up from ethanol. Are you suggesting to do the same with the ski doo.

[n8hutch]

I would if you buy an older sled it was not made/designed/or manufactured with ethanol in mind.

[BreezyHill]

N8H, what is changed in the ethonal go carts that are running the rotax skidoo motors so that they can burn straight alcohol?

[n8hutch]

Jetting, you can jet a engine to run on anything you wish, but the stock jetting, fuel air mixture was not calibrated for 90-10 Ethanol fuel.

[hambone]

Thanks to you guys I think I made a good purchase for our little operation. I bought the 97 Skandic 500 from a really nice guy for $950. He took really good care of it.

[Jswanson]

I am thinking of adding a snowmobile to our sap hauling fleet. What brands and models have you used and what is your opinion of them? I probably would be looking for an older snowmobile, what features do you feel are necessary? Thanks

If your interested I have a 2015 Polaris IQ 600 Wide Track FNR with High and Low Range. Track is wider and Longer than any other model same for the skis. This unit is made for trail grooming, Pulling heavy loads, search and rescue etc.. Let me know if you might be interested.

Joe

[Mark]

Alcohol is slow burning so it is high octane. The refiner can then combine the alcohol with a low octane gas to get the octane up. The problem is when the alcohol comes into contact with water and is pulled out, you get left with the low octane gas. If a gas station has water in their tank they end up selling low octane gas.

What is nice about aviation gas is it is distilled and not cracked so it is stable. You can have some in the tank of your airplane for years and it is still good.

[Daveg]

I use my 2008 550 Polaris Classic to pull a 60 gallon drum mounted on three "beginners" snowboarding boards. Starts cold with three pulls every time and starts with the first pull every time when warm. It has electric start but the battery is bad so I don't use it. I had to wear snowshoes a few times while driving it this year and the foot ledge was wide enough to accommodate them. I bought it used for $3500 with 500 miles. At the end of the season I "summer-ize" it by 1) draining the fuel line by shutting the valve and running it dry 2) siphon the gas tank dry 3) pull out the spark plugs and spray readily available fogging oil into the cylinders, pull the start cord to distribute the oil and re-install the spark plugs 4) grease all the zerk fittings.

[Maplesapper]

Thanks guys, I was hoping I would get all kinds of opinions. I'm leaning towards a Skandic, there are a few for sale around here. Breezyhill has a good opinion of them.

I bought the Skandic big brother.....Tundra Long Track, most excellent in the deep untouched 3' of snow pulling 30 gallons of sap in a boggan.
But don't ever ever get it stuck...pack a lunch. Only made that mistake once- now we just hold it to the bar if it starts to dig in.

[RileySugarbush]

Check this out!

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/snw/4993962852.html (http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/snw/4993962852.html)

[802maple]

I have ridden and raced snowmobiles just about since the time the first one was made, but I would never own one for sugaring in my opinion. As said by another poster earlier, a wheeler with tracks are far superior to a snowmobile.

[Maplewalnut]

I have ridden and raced snowmobiles just about since the time the first one was made, but I would never own one for sugaring in my opinion. As said by another poster earlier, a wheeler with tracks are far superior to a snowmobile.

Beanie-

You obviously rode Polaris?!?! All kidding aside I agree, although I do use some mid 80s ski doo citations to get around just because they are so light you can throw them around pretty easy when they get stuck. A tracked wheeler is more practical and better in deep snow and hills.

Mike

[wdchuck]

I'm with 802- I used to use a ski doo Elan- lightweight, maneuverable, floats well in deeper snow, starts every time. However, once I sucked it up and bought a tracked ATV, I'll never go back. I have yet to get stuck (although I've come close!) and you can carry a lot of gear, and a 2nd person to help with the work. True, they cost a lot more than a good used snowmobile, but I figured you cant take it with you........

[802maple]

And it can be used year round. I did get one stuck once and it was bear to get out. I straddled a 4 inch downed maple in 4 feet of fluffy snow and the tracks kept going underneath the tree and I didn't have a chainsaw, 2 miles back in the woods. Thank god for my winch to lift it up over from a nearby tree.

Yes Mike it was Polaris, but also Yamaha, Artic Cat, Mercury and Sno Jet lol. I know there wasn't any Ski-doo's there, but I just wanted something reliable. lol

[maple flats]

I'm thinking a set of tracks for my Polaris 500 HO ATV. I have a Polaris Indy Trail which was useless this year. The term "trail" means it is only good on groomed trails. If going with a snowmobile, get a long wide track model with good long cleats if breaking your own trail.
I've seem lots of video for tracked ATV's and it appears they can go anyplace you truly think it should go and even some places you may think it can't go. If you have an ATV, look at the tracks available. It appears you want about $4,000-$4500 in your pocket to make the deal on a set. Those who have them swear by them and not at them.