De-foamer

[Butch]

Okay – so I have never used a de-foamer until today. I'm wondering about the chemistry behind this, does the fat break the surface tension?

By the way, I am the guy using a 2 x 6 Smoky Lake Maple raised flu set of pans with a propane burner, I am very happy with how my syrup is turning out however I am still only getting about 15–16 gallons per hour of evaporate.

[mellondome]

How many btus are the burner (s) .?

[PerryW]

yes, the oil breaks the surface tension and bubbles don't form.

[Diesel Pro]

It sure doesn't take much, but I definitely need it. I bought a bottle in 2013 when I started and at this pace it will be a 50yr supply which will outlast my sugaring days and then some. I am looking to divide mine so I can leave one at the cabin where we do the bulk cooking and keep one at home where I do the finish work.

[Ausable]

Butch - If You use Atmos - like I now do. Remember to put it in a warm place to thaw out - before really getting into the boil. Usually - when I need it now and the foam is taking off - mine is solid as butter in a fridge. I pop the cover and scrape some out with a knife - after another close call - Than - I remember to warm it up and make it a liquid and it works great - lol - it even comes out of the spout as intended. I'm going to do a boil in the morning - I hope ---- I remember to check the Atmos!!!!!

[Butch]

Hey mellondome - the burner is still 320k BTUs. However, I am still looking for advice on this homebuild; the "base stack" is actually a 10" x 24" x 48" tall duct, not a standard stack - would a traditional stack with more height create more draw and pull that heat through the flues more effectively? We have boiling in the flue pan but not like it ought to be for certain - only getting max of 15-16 gallons per hour.

[Forrest hunters]

What are you using for an arch? I bought Smoky Lake 2x6 this year with the Silver Plate Addition arch and 12 foot stack. This is a drop flue set up. I averaged so far this year with start up and shut down 50.25GPH. Insulated with 2 layers of 1" blanket and full bricks inside that. Very Very Very impressed with Jim's work.

I was even throwing in Large split logs on bottom and then fine split on top and could boil about 15 minutes +/- between firing and this thing would just eat sap. When she was all heated up and going strong I was at about 60GPH.

[Forrest hunters]

I use Canola Oil for de-foamer and it works great. Put it in a ketchup bottle and just drizzle a little in every now and then. Can tell when boil changes and needs to be added if I am not watching for the smaller bubble to start building up.

[Butch]

Howdy - Had an arch made with a rather large propane burner under the front pan, may just be under-sized (320,000 BTU).

The heat does not travel up through the flues very well and yes I have lots of ceramic blanket under the pan, just wondering if I improve the stack (taller, smaller circumference) if the draw would increase enough to pull the heat through the flues???

I am also using Canola but I just smear a little on a spoon and stir it through, or just 2-3 drops when foaming.

[relseek]

Does defoamer go bad(Atmos in particular)? I had a small bottle that I bought last year and it seemed to give off a strange smell when putting it in pan. I just bought a new bottle and I'm not getting the same smell with the new bottle.

[mellondome]

You need closer to 550k btu for a 2x6.... and you don't want draft.. it will actually suck the heat past the pans , not allowing it to be absorbed. For raised flue, you will want the entrance to the flues to be 1/3 the pan length . The drop out should be small... maybe 3 or 4 inches. In between you want the blanket almost touching the flues to keep the heat up in.

[Butch]

Howdy mellondome - Thank you for your reply, you answered a big question of mine regarding the ceramic blanket and the "openings" under the raised flu pan. However, I take issue with your math on the energy requirement – according to UVM.EDU it takes approximately 400,000 BTU to convert 43 gallons of 2% sap into 1 gallon of syrup. Therefore, I may be a bit undersized but I do not believe – as of yet – that I need to go THAT much larger. I did quite a lot of research before sizing this burner on this arch and I think with a few tweaks I should be able to greatly increase its efficiency – however, after all – you may just be right!

[mellondome]

I didn't to the math on the btu requirement. But, I just converted my 2x6 raised Grimm to nat gas. I consulted Leader and that was the number they gave me. Actually they stated that I would need 540k btu for the 2x6 raised flue.

Also, you aren't boiling just that one chunk of 43 gal at a time , but continuous adding cold and boiling. And efficiency is definitely a consideration, as we are not close to 100 %.

[Butch]

Alright - Please allow me to ask about your GPH rate and at how many BTUs you went with?

[maple flats]

Yes, Atmos can go bad. However if you store it in the freezer between seasons it will not go bad. Defoamer should be used every time you add wood and you should figure out how much (how many drops). If you are on oil, nat. gas or propane you should run a timer for like every 10 minutes and figure how much that needs. You want to add it where the new sap enters the pan.
Done properly, there is no reason to try to avoid defoamer, but use the right amount, don't use too much or a littler defoamer floatie will be on the top of each jug and bottle.

[relseek]

Thanks Flats, I hadn't heard of freezing it in the off season, I will try that.

[maple maniac65]

Has anyone used the defomer from Lappiere? It seems to be a higher concentrate than atmos.

[VTmaplehobby]

We use the lapierre's because thats what bascom's had in stock, it works great. I have no experience with atmos though.

[PerryW]

I use Canola Oil for de-foamer and it works great. Put it in a ketchup bottle and just drizzle a little in every now and then. Can tell when boil changes and needs to be added if I am not watching for the smaller bubble to start building up.

yup and with canola oil it doesn't need to be warmed up. (and you know what the ingredients are)

[Mel]

Has anybody switched from the 'commercial' stuff to Canola (or just tried them both for a while) - and found a difference in effectiveness? I am thinking there would be given the solidifying characteristics of the commercial stuff, but not really sure.

And if so, how much more Canola they would need to use at a time vs. commercial - or something similar, ratio-wise?

[DrTimPerkins]

Has anybody switched from the 'commercial' stuff to Canola (or just tried them both for a while) - and found a difference in effectiveness? I am thinking there would be given the solidifying characteristics of the commercial stuff, but not really sure.

Different defoamers have varying levels of effectiveness. The "commercial" defoamers (Atmos and others) are quite effective and require only a very small amount, but are sometimes more solid-form than others (heat them up a bit and they will melt). The purely oil (Canola, Safflower, etc.) defoamers are not nearly as effective, but are simple to use because they are liquid. Larger rigs often have automatic drippers set up for defoaming. If foaming increases, you up the flow rate. If it is under control, you might drop the flow rate.

All defoamers work by reducing surface tension, which allows bubbles to break more easily (or not form as readily. Since they are basically all lipids (fats) of one type or another, they can go rancid, so should be refrigerated or frozen during the off-season. If your defoamer has a funny smell (and taste), toss it out and get a fresh bottle/jar.

One of the issues in certified organic maple production is the limited effectiveness of the permitted oils. We always hit a point in the season (right near the end) where the organic oils just don't work. At that point we decertify, switch to Atmos, and make a few barrels of "conventional" syrup.

[lpakiz]

Butch,
Concerning your evap rate and the BTU input of your system.
Do you have a stack temp monitoring system? That might give you a clue if your BTU is adequate. A very low reading (600?) might indicate that you are drawing almost all the heat out of your fire, and more could be added. If the temp is in the 900 range, input is probably adequate and you would need to concentrate on extracting that heat more efficiently.

[Tmeeeh]

One of the issues in certified organic maple production is the limited effectiveness of the permitted oils. We always hit a point in the season (right near the end) where the organic oils just don't work. At that point we decertify, switch to Atmos, and make a few barrels of "conventional" syrup.[/QUOTE]

We use certified organic canola oil. We use a timer and add it every 5 minutes. We put it in a spray bottle with the trigger pump. Usually one pump every 5 minutes is enough but if it is foamy sap we use 1 1/2 pumps. We add it to the steam away where the sap comes in. We find that we need more defoamer when we are boiling high concentrate sap from the RO. It would be great if one of the commercial defoamers were certified organic. The use of too much defoamer will cause some to remain in the finished syrup. Too little defoamer will cause impede the sap flow in the pans, push sap back into the float boxes and stop new sap from coming into the evaporator! This will cause surging in the gradient in the pans making it difficult to draw syrup steadily and cause scorched pans or worse. We used 5 pints of canola to make 1,127 gallons of syrup this year. We would like to use less but controlling the foam is a priority.

When it comes to cleaning the pans, there is a film of oil on the sides of the pans and the dividers. We have never tried the commercial defoamers. Maybe they don't leave as much residue in the syrup or on the pans. We always used butter or cream before but now with the risk of causing an allergic reaction in someone we have stopped that.

[Mel]

Different defoamers have varying levels of effectiveness. The "commercial" defoamers (Atmos and others) are quite effective and require only a very small amount, but are sometimes more solid-form than others (heat them up a bit and they will melt). The purely oil (Canola, Safflower, etc.) defoamers are not nearly as effective, but are simple to use because they are liquid. Larger rigs often have automatic drippers set up for defoaming. If foaming increases, you up the flow rate. If it is under control, you might drop the flow rate.

All defoamers work by reducing surface tension, which allows bubbles to break more easily (or not form as readily. Since they are basically all lipids (fats) of one type or another, they can go rancid, so should be refrigerated or frozen during the off-season. If your defoamer has a funny smell (and taste), toss it out and get a fresh bottle/jar.

One of the issues in certified organic maple production is the limited effectiveness of the permitted oils. We always hit a point in the season (right near the end) where the organic oils just don't work. At that point we decertify, switch to Atmos, and make a few barrels of "conventional" syrup.

We've used the granular kosher stuff for the past few years. Before that used the liquid, but dealing with a bottle of solids first thing in the day was a bit of a pain. Now thinking about something on the auto-drip level, with something with better consistency (and more available) like canola oil. Climbing up to get some in the piggy back every firing gets kind of cumbersome - and likely inconsistent.

[Tmeeeh]

Anyone use bees wax to defoam?

[maple flats]

"according to UVM.EDU it takes approximately 400,000 BTU to convert 43 gallons of 2% sap into 1 gallon of syrup."
The BTU requirement may be 400,000BTU but what is the efficiency of your burner. It can't be any where near 100%, thus you need more BTU input to get the production. Sometimes we out smart ourselves trying to do the math and setting up the burner based on the "numbers" but did you calculate the efficiency of the unit. That can be a huge factor. If it takes 400,000 BTU to produce 1 gal of syrup from 2% sap, and the burner is 50% efficient, you now need 800,000 BTU burner to make that gallon.
Your best bet is likely to ask Jim at Smokey Lake what size propane burner is needed to match the performance the pans can achieve. You might be very surprised.