Bilge pump

[325abn]

I think I know the answer but I want to pose it anyway. A common evryday bilge pump will be just fine for moving around sap, right?

[Fred Henderson]

RIGHT. The more GPH the better. Less time transferring.

[Dave Y]

yes they will work fine. however if your tanks are in a permenent location I would plumb them up to a self priming transfer pump, they will do alittle better job.

[hard maple]

Yup they'll work fine. I just bought a RULE 2500 pump on ebay for around 30$. It's new so there's no residue from a boat hull in it. It's 12 volt so it'll hook right up to my pickup. I'm just using it to move the sap from my dumping station on the tailgate to my horizontal pickup tank.

[Sugarmaker]

325,
Yes they work well, and you just need to size it for your job. I just got a 2000 Rule and will use it for remote tubs and pump to the truck dump station which has a Rule 3000 to pump up to the truck tank.
Hard maple,
Why dont I ever think of looking on Ebay:( Thats a real good price on that pump. Is it one that needs a external float switch or are you putting a switch in the line?
The one I just bought has the float built in and should be easy for the grand kids and or wife to run it.
I like the idea that they can run dry and can even be frozen and it will not damage them.
I will have to take some pictures when I get it done. Doing a little over kill as usual, with a check valve near the discharge, and adding some protection in case the pump gets dropped or set on the ground.

I agree that if you have a lot to pump quick there may be much better ways, but I think this will work for our little system.

Regards,
Chris

[hard maple]

Chris
Mine is actually a 1500 I got the numbers wrong. I'll be putting a inline switch and fuse on it. It does not need an external float switch. I haven't decided if I'll connect it to the battery or the 7 pin harness on the bumper?? Any suggestions?? During the bidding the reserve was never met. Since I was the high bidder the seller contacted me a few days later and offered it to me for my last bid.

[Dave Y]

Chris,
I put a Rule 5000 Gold in my dump station. And I am going to use it to pumpit back into my storage tanks from the truck tank. It should empty it in less than 15mins.

[JasonS]

Has Anybody ever put some type of threaded fitting on a rubbermaid tote? Tractor supply sells the bulkhead fittings that are on the bottom of the norwesco tanks. Seems like a tote isn't much different than a pickup tank, just thinner??

[buxtonboiler]

Wow, never thought of using a bilge pump for transfering sap. Great idea, I'm headed to Walmart to get one now.

[firetech]

I use a TMC 1750 bilge pump the design has a vertical discharge and fits down the small manhole in my truck tank. It pumps from the truck mounted tub and we pull it out and drop it in the gathering tubs and pumps the truck tank to the feed tank or bulk storage tanks. Nice unit $47 from the web site.

[TapME]

Going to be my first time using one too. Anything is better than using buckets to transfer sap with. Going to wire it to the trailer hitch on the truck and the lights on the four wheeler and snowmobile. Royalmaple used one for a couple of years and that is were I got the idea.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I dont think the light circuit is heavey duty enough. I used a bilge pump for years and it needs good wire and battery. Wire in a small tractor batt. and have that charging at all times. Mount the pump on a stick so you can hold it down on the bottom flat. Trying to dangle it on a flex hose is like a game at the carnival and you wont get the teddy bear.

[325abn]

I use my boats deep cycle trolling battery as a dedicated battery for the pump. Using the flexable type sump pump hose did not work for me at all, I ended up using a length of rigid 1inch pipe.

[maplesyrupstove]

I used a boat pump and my lawn mower battery to gather sap with my 4 wheeler. There are more pictures in photobucket. Darrell

[Haynes Forest Products]

Nice work after a year like that I put a 90 degree on the pump and a check valve right after that and a switch about 4 feet up so I didnt loose sap after I turned it off and was walking back to the tank. You still can hold it up and drain it at night.

[Bucket Head]

How many gallons per minute are the Rule pumps and the TMC pump?

Steve

[Sugarmaker]

BH, They come in all shapes and sizes. I have a RULE 3700 gph and a 2000 gph. both work good most of the time. They will not pump slushy ice in sap. Sometimes the float switch on the 3700 gives me fits.

Chris

[Bucket Head]

Wow! 3700 gallons per hour? Thats really moving some sap at 12volts! Does the engine slow down and the lights dim when it kicks on? LOL!

Thanks for the info.

Steve

[Sugarmaker]

Steve,
3700 GPH is on level ground with no head rise. So I loose some on pumping capicity 5 feet to the top of my tanks. So maybe 300 GPH. Sounds like a lot but that's only 50 gallon per minute. I sized this to pump 20 gallons in about 20 seconds. I did not want the crew standing around waiting for sap to pump at the dumping station. This was serious bottle neck in the previous lift and dump by hand into t tank method. In this case bigger was better. Two gathers can walk to the dumping station dump four pails and the sap is gone by the time a third gather gets there.
Since we have gone away from buckets this pump still lifts the sap to the tank in a hurry using the smaller pump for the remote work.

Now if I only had a swing boom to keep from rolling that darn hose up each time:).

Chris

[Bucket Head]

Chris,

Still, fifty gallons per minute is great. I might get one of those. Its just my father and I dumping buckets, so theres no bottle neck. The problem is we have to wait a minute or two after the last pail for the barrel to empty so we can get going.

I had no idea what the gpm was on my pump. It was free so I used it. Its better than getting up in the truck to dump, but fifty gpm sounds good!

Steve

[Haynes Forest Products]

SUGARMAKER: Not wanting to nitpick could you run the numbers again. If it wasnt for the 1/2 credit for drivers ed I would still be in school

[swierczt]

Do the bilge pumps work well if you restrict the flow at all? Such as if you pump the sap into a smaller discharge line or regulate it with a valve? I was thinking of using one in my sap tank to pump through a preheater...obviously the pump in the cold sap pushing it through the copper coils. I would want to regulate the flow with a valve of some sort as to not get too much sap into my pan. My concern is that will it burn out the pump if you restrict it a little, but not too much that you burn the sap in the preheater....Thanks!

[3rdgen.maple]

Sweirczt I can tell you that I have a koi pond in the front yard and I run three pumps in it I for waterfall 1 for filter and 1 for fountain sprayer all three of them have a flow rate valve on them they have been running nonstop for a few years with zero problems. They are expensive pumps though so I don't know if that makes a difference or not. I think as long as they are circulating water they will stay cool enough.

[cheesegenie]

I just bought a SS submersilble sump pump to transfer sap out of drums
in truck.Tried it today , works good. was $77 at Princess Auto, but this
store is Canadian, so USA friends might have to find it in a similar store.
I will keep it just for sap, unless my hot water tank in basement floats
around again when the other pump fails in the night.

[PARKER MAPLE]

I Was Wondering If Anybody Could Tell Me The Lefting Capabilties Of These Pumps, What I Want To Do Is Set It Up On The Back Of My Ranger Beside The Tank. So I Can Gather With It And The Drive To The Sugar House And Pump It Out Of My Gathering Tank Into My Holding Tank. But Here The Problem, My Holding Tank Is Approx 8ft Off The Ground And 15ft From Where I Can Park The Ranger. Can Anybody Tell Me If One Of These Pumps Will Still Work? Thanks M.r.

[Fred Henderson]

Yes they will but the GPM will be much less. Most bilde pumps are rated with a 3 foot max lift.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Im struggling with the 3ft lift part. Most boats that would need a builge pump suck from the very bottom of the boat and they discharge as high as possible on the side or transom. I know for a fact that our boats had higher than 4 foot sides above the water line and 3ft below so check the lift rating. going sideways will add friction but will not effect the lift. They all come with charts. I would also look at a 12v to 110 converter and get a cheap sump pump from HD and you can switch over to sap shack power.

[tuckermtn]

Haynes- as a kid our boat had a bilge outlet that is just above waterline- and pulls from the low spot in the v-hull- so a bit less that 3 feet- but that was on a 21 ft center console fishing boat...other boats may be different. Salt water was rough on the pumps- had to switch them every two years or so...

[vtsnowedin]

Im struggling with the 3ft lift part. Most boats that would need a builge pump suck from the very bottom of the boat and they discharge as high as possible on the side or transom. I know for a fact that our boats had higher than 4 foot sides above the water line and 3ft below so check the lift rating. going sideways will add friction but will not effect the lift. They all come with charts. I would also look at a 12v to 110 converter and get a cheap sump pump from HD and you can switch over to sap shack power.
Pumps have a harder time sucking up water or sap then they do pushing it up hill after it reaches the pump. The pump has to put the inlet hose under suction and the difference between the vac pressure inside the hard suction hose and the outside air pressure is what pulls the water up the pipe. At 14.5 psi normal air pressure a pump with a perfect vacuum can lift/ suck up water a maximum of 33.5 feet. Pumps aren't perfect of course so you can't expect them to pull anywhere close to 33.5 and the closer to the water level you can get them the less work they have to do to get water to the pump. Once in the pump the pressurized water will rise up to a height equal to the discharge pressure divided by .433 which is just the weight of a one square inch column of water one foot high. So a pump discharging at 20 psi can pump water up to a max of 46 feet high. A pump rated to lift three feet means it can suck it up that far not that three feet is its push limit. It is pretty light duty but if you can set it up at the waterline it should do anything you need to do around a sugar house operation.

[ibby458]

My experience with bilge pumps is mixed. The Wal-mart pump died before the season was over. The bigger one from eBay is still going strong.

They will not pump anything near the figures printed on them. They lose effiency VERY fast as you lift sap. I was pumping mine up 4' into a cage tanks, and it only pumped 1/4 of it's rated capacity at best.

Forget corrugated sump pump tubing. Impossible to clean and springs a leak when you look at it cross eyed. I used reinforced vinyl tubing from lowes. Easy to clean with a bottle brush on a fish tape and durable. Pretty stiff at times, though.

Leave off the check valves. You want that pump to drain when you pick it up out of the dump station. To prevent back siphonage, drill a small hole in the discharge pipe at maximum tank level.

[ehausinfrats]

I am going to try this pump from a cooler on a hitch hauler on the back of my pickup to my three hundred gallon tank in the bed. It shows the difference in gpm on the height needed. Could be a help.
click on link.


http://store.waterpumpsupply.com/runo12vodcbi4.html

[Haynes Forest Products]

VTSnowiden Thanks for the info it does make sense most small bilge pumps have the intake as part of the bottom screen for that reason. Ibby maple rookie said he is walking from tree to tree pail to pail. Waiting for the sap to drain out every time is a major pain. You will spend twice as long waiting for air locks and the pump to reprime. Letting the sap flow out of the discharge line, pump, and intake line every time you shut the pump off walking to another tree is crazy. Any boat that has the bilge pump discharge at the water line is in MY opinion a bad design and potential disaster. All the pumps I ever saw/had were set down in the keel area for max suction and pickup

[Woody]

What do you guys think of those horse and a half Honda water pumps? I know it's a little more money but was wondering with the head loss on the bilge pumps if overall the Honda would be more efficient. Don't know how they would stand up to riding in a sap trailer through the woods..

thanks

[tuckermtn]

we went with the 2000 gph rule bilge pump in our dump station. like to use that vs. the honda wx10 for the dump station on the trailer hitch b/c don't like starting and stoping the gas pump every stop. The Rule pumps up 4 or 5 feet into the top of the 425 pick-up tank in the f-350. will empty the 5 gal gathering pail up into the tank in about 20-30 seconds- sometimes longer if the pump takes a few seconds to prime. never had to wait for it...

[Woody]

good point on the starting and stopping. Do you have the Rule hooked up to a float switch in the tank your dumping into?

[tuckermtn]

yes we have it set up with a float switch- but I would also recommend wiring in a manual override switch to kick it into life when the float switch gets fussy..

[Bucket Head]

Tuckermtn,

So your Rule 2000 does or does'nt come close to pumping what it is rated to pump? Twenty or thirty seconds seems like a long time for a pailfull.

I would like to go to a better pump on my pick-up truck dump station, but I'm hesitant after hearing these things struggle to pump "upwards".

Steve

[tuckermtn]

No it does not come close to pumping what it is rated for- but I find it more than adequate for pumping the gathering pails up to the 425 tank. when we gather, its at most two people gathering- with at most two pails each. rarely do we meet at the dump station at the same - but if we do, I can dump in 5 gals at once and the other person can do the same. so 10 gals. in the dump station (which is a 55 gal barrel cut in half) at once- takes me 10-15 seconds to reach down and get the second gathering pail- 5 gals is almost gone. pour 5 more in. same for 2nd person. most in there at once is 15 or so. gone in another minute. if its the last for that stop, we get in the truck and move on while the pump is still pumping. I have never had to wait for the Rule. love that its 12 volt wired right off the trailer lights.

[Sugarmaker]

Haynes, and others
Sorry I missed your post last spring on this topic asking me to run the numbers again on these RULE blidge pumps for moving sap.

I would guess a RULE 2000 should pump about 26 gal per minute.

Steve Try a RULE 3700 and I think it might work for you. Read on.

First they work great. But you need to size then accordingly.
I have two.
The main pump is in the old dumping station on the back of the truck slung low for dumping buckets into. !t sets in the bottom of a 55 gallon plastic drum.
( Since I don't use many buckets this dumping station may get changed.) This main pump is a RULE 3700. and also a RULE Super Switch (float switch). Here was the logic.
Pumping into a 325 gallon poly tank at approx 5 feet above the pump.
two gathers walk up to the back of the truck and dump 20 gallons of sap.
The 1/2 of a drum is about 20 plus gallons of dumping volume.

At a est of 3000 gph. 50 gallon of sap per minute, or 25 gal per 30 seconds or 12.5 gal per 15 seconds. So the two gathers walk away and the sap is up in the tank in approx 30 seconds more or less. If a third gather is there, by the time they get to the truck they can dump and be gone with no delays.

Since I have gone to 95% tubing on short runs I stop at a 40 gallon tote that say has 35 gallons (full) I have a second remote pump a RULE 2700 on 20 feet of 1.25 I.D. pool hose. I have a check valve and switch at the pump so that I can pick the pump and not have to wait for draining sap from the pump.
This 2700 Rule pumps to the dumping station and the 3700 has no problem keeping up!
The 2700 only pumps about 3 feet of head height so lets say 2000 GPH. Thats 33 gal per minute. So I can pump out the tote in about 1 minute.
Thats enough time to smell the roses and look at the lines real quick. Load up the hose and pump and off to the next tote. We still use two folks to gather most of the time but I can do it myself and not be wore out after gathering 500 taps (about 30 totes at about 16 taps per tote avg.) On a avg run of 2 gallons of sap per tap, then the totes are sized about right.

All on a very quiet system. No pumps to wake the neghbors, Most of the gathers in the family can run the system. I have sent the grandsons 17 and 13 yrs. out to gather for me.

In a real bind I can use buckets to transfer frozen sap slush to the dumping station in buckets. The screen in the dumping station strains the slush and allow the sap to pump. These pumps will not pump slush.

Hope this helps.

And yes these are not fool proof. I have positions on our rout where its like the Bermuda triangle and the pumps need shut off and cycled back on to re-prime themselves.

Regards,
Chris

[Bucket Head]

Chris,

The 3700 has no trouble with head height? It pumps from the barrel up to the tank with out a problem where the 2700 will not?

Also, what is the amperage draw on both pumps? The pump I'm using now is rated at 10amps and thats what I have in the in-line fuse holder feeding it.

Steve

[Sugarmaker]

Steve,
I never tried the 2700 up to the tank but I am sure it would pump that high with out a problem except that with add height you will loose come pumping capacity.

The 3700-12 volt has a 19 AMP draw and should have a 25 amp Fuse.
I plug them into the outlets wired into the truck at the rear bumper. The trailer elec. hookups. I plug the 3700 into the 7 prong and the 2700 into the 4 prong outlet.
Have never blown a fuse yet.
Chris

[Bucket Head]

Thanks for the info Chris.

Steve

[PARKER MAPLE]

well guys thanks for helping me on my questions, lots of good info.

next questioons is where to find a rule 2700 and 3700, and app switchs.

thanks maple rookie

[tuckermtn]

should be lots of them on ebay - thats where I got my pump and switch

[Sugarmaker]

Just Google RULE.com and you should find it. I bought them thru a boat supply place I think.

Good luck pumping.

Chris

[PARKER MAPLE]

So Say I Have A Few 55 Gallons Drums Out With My Lines Running Into To Them, How Long Will This Take To Empty? With A 2000

[Sugarmaker]

MR,
I would assume a 2000 gph pump might run at 1800 gph with some head height. So my logic would be 1800gal/60 min = 30 gallon per minute. So maybe it will take about 2 minutes to empty each 55 gallon drum. Maybe longer if the pump really doesn't kick out 1800 gph???
Will that work for you? 2 minutes per barrel may still be much faster then if you had individual buckets at each tap.


Regards,
Chris

[PARKER MAPLE]

Thanks Sugamaker, Thats Alot Faster Then What I Thought. Im Going To Purchase One This Weekend.. Thanks For The Help

[Kyle Baker]

reviving this old thread on Bilge pumps... I just picked up a bilge from crappy tire rated at 600GPH. The outlet is 3/4" so I picked up a 50' roll of 3/4" pex pipe since it's all I could find. Just in a quick attempt to test it tonight, I put some water in a barrel and dropped the pump in with the full roll of pex on it. It pumped it part way through the hose, but never actually got any out the end.
Is it crazy to have attempted the 50'? or was it because it was kind of coiled up so it had to go up and down through the coil?
What kind and size of hose are people using?
I'm just trying to get this thing set up so I can pump out a 55 gallon drum of sap I have set up along a fenceline away from my property.

Thanks!

[Paul VT]

I use a rule brand 600 gph bilge pump. I have flexible tube hooked to it that is probably 10 ft long and pumps sap up about 5 ft. Works fine.

[325abn]

WOW!! Can't believe its been 6 years since I started this thread! Crazy how fast time passes.

I still have the bilge pumps I bought back then

[Kyle Baker]

Paul, is that a standard 3/4" bilge hose? I'm gonna guess all I need to do is shorten my hose length. 50' is pretty far!
Thanks

[325abn]

Isn't it true that if your 50Ft roll of pex is lets say 2ft tall and has 25 loops you are trying to lift the water 50 ft or if it has 12 loops the head is about 24Ft?

Know what I mean?

[Kyle Baker]

that is sort of what I wondered about... There werent that many coils, but at least 5 or 6 coils at about 3'. You're probably onto something. It's hard to straighten that stuff out! I should look for some corrugated hose thats easier to manage.

[Paul VT]

Paul, is that a standard 3/4" bilge hose? I'm gonna guess all I need to do is shorten my hose length. 50' is pretty far!
Thanks
Yes it is corrugated bilge hose. You can cut it to the length you want. I bought it with the pump. You can buy it by the foot.

[Super Sapper]

The head would be the distance in height from the discharge of the pump to the outlet of the hose. It would not multiply with the coils. You probably air locked the pump with the air that get trapped in the high part of the coils. A bilge pump is not made to overcome a lot of head so it would get air bound in that situation easily. Run a straight piece to the height you want without the coils and see how it pumps.

[sg5054]

Rule pumps, switches etc are at any boatyard or marine supply store. Probably the most common and widely used brand in the boat business.

[timmeh87]

The head would be the distance in height from the discharge of the pump to the outlet of the hose.

+1 on that. Its the same principle that causes a siphon tube to operate. The outlet is lower than the water level, so the head is negative and the water flows down the tube like its flowing downhill, even if the tube has sections that are higher than the water level. And anyone who's ever tried to draw a siphon knows that even small amounts of air can ruin it.