to brick or not to brick, that is the question

[maple flats]

I am bricking my wood fired 3x8 raised flue dry fit as much as possible. I have a question about the fire side of the front of the arch. On my 2x6 I bricked the fireside of the front except the doors which remained un insulated. Do I need to brick the front around the doors or can I leave it or use arch board? I plan on getting some arch board and re-do it with better insulation when I finish the sugarhouse but right now my wife likes the warmth off the rig or she gets too cold. When the sugarhouse is done it will be much tighter and might even insulate, then the arch can be better insulated to get the max from the wood. I have no shortage of wood and my wife will not boil if she gets too cold. If I should brick the iner front I assume it must be refractoried on to stay. Comments please.

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

I'd MUCH rather see an evaporator running at max efficiency and put on another shirt, rather than see a lot of heat getting wasted.

On my previous arch all there that was around the doors was the arch board cut to a tight fit to hold itself. But there was always a piece missing somewhere everytime I looked becasue I couldn't get anything to hold it in.

[maple flats]

My wife is wearing a winter weight coat while boiling. She has very little heat reserve since undergoing chemo and radiation, her blood is very low count and I think this adds to her being cold. I need the warmth for her and will burn the extra wood needed. My question is basically weather the cast iron front needs to be protected from the heat. The doors are each opened about every 14 minutes (1 each 7 min alternatly) and get that brief time to cool but the rest has no break from the heat, will this damage the front?

[royalmaple]

I actually just finished bricking up my arch today. What I did was use 1" arch board first then full bricks. Granted it was on a 2.5x8 so the distance from the edge of the door to the side of the evaporator might vary from your to my rig, but what I was getting at is the brick just about touched the frame of the door after the layers I had.

I didn't do anything to the doors, I "may" later on after this season add blanket to the doors and pin it with bolts and washers, I just hate to drill something brand new already.

I don't think you will have any harm to the front, just might have some heat escape. But seems you are after that anyway.

You could always cut some brick and fill in the space if you have much of one and stack the brick in the front. There must not be much of a space between the side bricks and the door frame.

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

I'd have to agree w/ Matt. I don't think it would bother the casting at all. It is kinda made for the high heat anyway. Like on a lot of arches, the only places that use cast iron is where the concetrated heat will be directly in contact. ie: doors/front/grates. everywhere else has a mild steel frame and then is insulated or insulated/bricked.

[tapper]

I put a brand new cast iron front on my rig last season, was running forced air and when the season was done noticed the front had cracked. The reason I replaced it was the original front had broke bad enough that it finally fell apart. I held it together with a bar clamp for a few years. The 20 yr old Leader 2x6 wasnt designed for forced air and I thought the cast would take the heat but it didnt. Had I known about Maple Trader years ago that front would have been insulated at least to some extent.

[Fred Henderson]

Cast iron will take the heat.When it is made there is much more carbon in it than mild steel which in turn makes it much harder and more durable to high temps. On my new rig I did drill the doors and sandwiched 2" ceramic blanket with 1" spacer and SS 3/16" plate. Using SS bolts.

[SteveD]

Instead of drilling the doors for the bolts to hold the insulation...has anyone ever tried to "glue" bolts to the inside of the door with JB Weld or some similar high temp adhesive?

[Fred Henderson]

Syeve,, That might work because the heat would not be that great behind the insulation.

[royalmaple]

I had thought about drilling a small pilot hole in the back and trying to thread the hole for some bolts. That way I wouldn't have to dill all the way through. It would all depend on how much meat I got in the door before I am through.

[maplehound]

Brad Gillion told us at the Maple days meeting that if you are kracking your doors then you are probably getting them to glow. He told us that our doors should not glow at all, and if they do we are not puting the wood in far enough. An evaporator that doesn't have forced air, should have the wood at least 2 or 3" inside the door and if it has forced air you should double that at least. I have been fortunate enough to not crack my doors yet( knock on wood) but I have had them glowing on several occasions. He also told us that he has seen many times people use the doors to shove the wood in the last couple inches. So just remeber the doors arn't ment as a RAM.

[brookledge]

Why not weld studs to the doors if you don't want to drill holes. All you need is Ni-rod and you can weld to cast. Better yet pull the hinge pins and take it to a local welder he could do it in a heart beat.
As for insulating the front doors as long as you keep the wood away from the doors they should last for along time and they will radiate some heat so if you are looking to have your wife get some heat from the arch there should be no problem.
The biggest problem people run into with cracking the cast is they let the wood in the fire box get to close. When you put the wood in keep it atleast 4-6" in from the door. Same problem with warping grates keep the ash away from the bottom of the grates. Keep it clean underneath. Keep air moving around the cast parts and you should be fine
Keith

[Fred Henderson]

Welding a SS bolt onto that cast is the best way to crack it that I know of. nickel bearing rod is made for welding two pieces of cast together. When I drilled my doors for 5/16" bolts I went just 2/64" over. This allows that cast a little more room to expand.

[hard maple]

How about running some thin ss strips vertically from the top to bottom of the arch doors. making a bracket that would hold the arch board to doors?? I to have a new rig and hate to start drilling, tapping and altering it.

[brookledge]

Fred
I don't know much about welding but I thought if you pre heated the cast the Ni- rod would work ok. I have welded mild steel to cast with Ni-rod and it has worked. But it wasn't a weld that was exposed to extreme heat.
Are you saying that the weld won't hold up to heat?
Just wondering
Keith

[Fred Henderson]

The only proper way to weld cast to cast, or SS or mild steel to cast is that both pieces have to be pre heated. This usually takes a few hour in a big furance, then do the welding, then cover everything with sand that was also preheated and let it cool until you can touch it. Your way will probably hold for a few years, but your going to feel real bad if it breaks 30 seconds after you get done. A nice SS bolt is just going to add to the beauty of it. I could go take a pic of mine and it looks like they are supposed to be there.

[oneoldsap]

Try welding SS bolts to your door. Then hold your insulation on with fender washers and nuts. I've seen it done, works great.

[SteveD]

I found this high temperature adhesive called Durabond 7032.

http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/pdf/liquidmetals.pdf

In theory...it is good up to 2000 degrees F.

That should hold the bolt heads to the door....since as Fred says...they are behind the insulation.

Steve

[JasonS]

I have a new style leader 2' arch, I didn't insulate the front at all. I never thought about it and no one told me to. It seems to be fine, only been 2 years. I would like to somehow stop the forced air from blowing out the door, seems like some blanket and bolts welded to it might work? Anybody know were you can buy some blanket locally? (I'm not in maple country)

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

You can buy a roll off of ebay for a ton cheaper than maple dealers. Might not need nearly that much now, but it makes good pan gasket cut into a strip and lots of other uses over the next few years it will come in handy.

[tapper]

I ordered 1" ceramic blanket from Onex I believe it was around $125.00 for the roll. http://www.onexnet.com/

[JasonS]

What density do I need, #6 or #8, both are on ebay, I would like to use it for the arch front and a pan gasket.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

You would probably be fine with 6#, but 8# would be better if not too much more. Either way, you don't want the fire too close to the arch front with insulation and it don't take anything special for pan gasket. You should be able to get a 1" x 2' x 25' roll on ebay for around $ 50 to $ 60 + shipping.

[JasonS]

I found this high temperature adhesive called Durabond 7032.

http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/pdf/liquidmetals.pdf

In theory...it is good up to 2000 degrees F.

That should hold the bolt heads to the door....since as Fred says...they are behind the insulation.

Steve

Anybody try something like this? I need to secure the blanket to the front of the arch and the single door, I don't want to drill and I could bring the door to a welder but not the arch front, he would have to make a service call for those welds. I was thinking about a epoxy or some sort of glue. I have glue for fireplace rope gasket, would that work or is the blanket to heavy?
Thanks,
Jason

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

I have a feeling that the blanket would pull apart.

[JasonS]

JB Weld will last up to 500 deg. Will it get over 500 behind the blanket? What type of bolts should I secure to the arch, Stainless? Will they take the heat?
Thanks,
Jason

[Fred Henderson]

Stainless is the only thing that will take the heat unless you know someone that works fos NASA. They could give you some advice .

[JasonS]

Stainless is the only thing that will take the heat unless you know someone that works fos NASA. They could give you some advice .

How hot do you think it will get behind the blanket, over 500 deg???

[Fred Henderson]

I don't know but what I do know is that you can not have that blanket just hanging out there in the breeze. Soon than later something will pull it down. Put it on anyway you like then you will know what works and what does not.

[JasonS]

I don't know but what I do know is that you can not have that blanket just hanging out there in the breeze. Soon than later something will pull it down. Put it on anyway you like then you will know what works and what does not.

I plan on using JB Weld to "weld" on stainless bolts. Then I assume I will use some fender washers to hold the blanket on. I'll see how long the JB Weld lasts, hopefully through the season. I report back with my findings.
Thanks for the Help,
Jason

[SteveD]

Jason....I ordered up some of that Durabond 7032. It was about 35 bucks for what amounts to about a pint of putty.
Tomorrow I will be gluing stainless steel bolts...by their heads...to the doors. I have some 18 guage stainless steel plates that I will be putting on those bolts after the ceramic blanket in order to protect the blanket from chunks of wood that fall back against the door.

Hopefully, it will work. I would think it unlikely that it would exceed 2000 degrees where the bonding material is ...behind the ceramic blanket.

[Fred Henderson]

I have that brand new shiney evap that has never made syrup yet. I drilled my doors and used SS bolts. Made the holes just a little bit bigger than is required for a 5/16" bolt . That adds just 4 more places for each door for expansion. I have seen too many doors cracked because the were no provisions for enough expansion.

[JasonS]

Well, after the JB Weld didn't hold up through the first boil I have dicided to drill some holes into my arch front. Any tips or suggestions? Will a standard metal drill bit be good enough?
Any ideas are welcome.
Thanks,
Jason

[Fred Henderson]

Yes a standard drill bit will work OK just go slow and use a little oil on the bit, cutting oil if you have it and if any oil will do.

[SteveD]

Yeah .... The fancy Durabond glue didn't work either... Could be I didn't mix it well enough...but I'll probably take Fred's path too.
-Steve