Hydrogen Peroxide

[coyote]

For all those that use hydrogen peroxide to wash their tubing, where do you get it in bulk. Say at least 1 gallon containers. I feel a little silly buying all the quarts and pints out of the local Walmart. What is the strength of it and what is your mixing ratio? Thanks.

[cncaboose]

This is where I get it. You need to be careful with the 35% stuff. Wear rubber gloves. I use 1 quart in a 60 gallon tank of water, flood the system and let it sit for a week before draining. http://www.pureh2o2forhealth.com

[northwoods_forestry]

Before you start pumping hydrogen peroxide into your tubing you might want to read this:

http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/tubing_cleaning.pdf

[BreezyHill]

Coyote,
Welcome to the cleaner side.

I get mine at CDL in 2.5 gallon container. Don't recall the concentration level but for food preparation surfaces is the level I mix at and it is around 4ounces in 35 gallons of water. I have a 35 gallon tank and I draw into a hand pump sprayer to apply into the spouts. To fill the mains I use a 12 volt pump on the atv. First fill the mains then I do the spouts. Last season I used the vacuum pump to suck it in and I did not get the 30 minutes of contact that Steve Child of Cornell recommends. So in the late fall we went thru the bush and hand pumped into the spouts.

It did a great job. I am already over 30% of last seasons production and we have only had one good run. Last season sucked so that is not saying much but we are on track to reach our 0.55 gallons per tap for this season.

I run mostly colored lines and have 4-H and other tours here. It is hard to explain a dirty sap line to a kid; so we have always washed our lines. Until last season it was bleach...worked great...0.47 gallons per tap, and there are studies to support the methodology.

Yes it is best to not buy our supplies in the retail world.. people will think you are making drugs or something else that is bad.:lol:

Yes it is work but we are making a food product and what I save in filter socks for the sap and filter for the RO more than pays for my peroxide.

I also find it much easier to clean the sap tanks with the sprayer and brush than the old way of bleach and several pails of permeate to rinse the tank down. I spray it down let it sit, spray again, brush it down, spray that down and let sit for another 10 minutes or so and then rinse it with permeate. IF no permeate then use water. I don't always have the 30 minutes to give it so it can be done in 3 for a 500 gallon tank. I have more storage tanks this season so the 30 is usually do able.

Washing is not for everyone...but soon it will be required..so might as well get in the habit.

Ben

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

What is difference between 3% you buy at Walmart and the "food grade"???

[maple maniac65]

32% and food grade is the other side of the barrel

[DrTimPerkins]

I get mine at CDL in 2.5 gallon container. .... I used the vacuum pump to suck it in and I did not get the 30 minutes of contact that Steve Child of Cornell recommends....

At least one of the products sold by equipment manufacturers, including CDL, and the solution used in the UVM PMRC and by Cornell University (Steve Childs) cooperative study on tubing cleaning, is Premium Peroxide II http://www.kellysolutions.com/erenewals/documentsubmit/KellyData%5CSC%5Cpesticide%5CProduct%20Label%5C495 9%5C63838-1-4959%5C63838-1-4959_PREMIUM_PEROXIDE_II_1_5_2011_5_10_32_PM.pdf It is not simply hydrogen peroxide, but is a combination of peroxyacetic acid and hydrogen peroxide. Although it is supposedly a "no rinse" sanitizer, due to the strong acetic acid smell (like vinegar), maple tubing should probably be rinsed after use, or the first run of sap be allowed to run on the ground. Like hydrogen peroxide alone (or bleach), it has no residual action, so the preferred use would be in the fall, although before temperatures drop below 40 deg F (below which the sanitizing efficacy drops off). Also like any type of hydrogen peroxide or bleach (or any sanitizers really), with heavy soiling, the tubing should be cleaned with water first to remove any left over sap and large materials. This will allow the sanitizer to penetrate the remaining surface material of the microbial biofilms better. As with any type of sanitizer, cleaning done properly can be effective. The devil is in the details though, so if done improperly, it is more a waste of time and money than anything else.

Personal safety and environmental safety precautions should ALWAYS be taken with any type of sanitizers.

[Diesel Pro]

So a flushing rinse in spring followed by another rinse then PPII followed by another rinse?

Soak time?

[DrTimPerkins]

So a flushing rinse in spring followed by another rinse then PPII followed by another rinse?

Soak time?

Whether you flush in spring is up to you. To clean and sanitize the lines, you'd want to clean them first by flushing them to dislodge the larger debris, then put in PPII (or bleach) with a minimum contact (soak) time of 30 min, then rinse with water and vacuum dry.

[Flatlander]

I'm not sure how to ask this so here goes.

It is recommended to change out our taps each year. Based on other studies, a good rule of thumb would be to change out our drops every two years.

According to the study mentioned earlier, if washing is dubious at best until more study is done, then how often should the rest of the lateral line should be changed? Seems to me if bacteria is impregnated in the line its not just in the drop. Is it more important to change out all the fittings and the tubing closest to the taps? I just installed this year a new 3/16ths line. I have to take it down each year due to cattle. Would like to know what the best way to do this to make it last for as long as practical.

Thanks

[DrTimPerkins]

It is recommended to change out our taps each year.

If using plastic tubing spouts, that is correct.


Based on other studies, a good rule of thumb would be to change out our drops every two years.

The interval at which you would replace drops depends upon a few variables, however 3 yrs turns out to be an average when you should change drops on vacuum tubing systems if you are not using CV spouts. The interval could be shorter if you achieve very high yields, your sap has high value (perhaps you're retailing all your syrup) and longer if your yields are lower for some reason or you are selling syrup bulk.
http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/How%20often%20should%20you%20replace%20droplines.p df
http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/Should%20droplines%20be%20replaced%20when%20using% 20check%20valve%20adapters%20or%20spouts.pdf

You can actually do some of these calculations yourself to determine what strategy might work best for you using the Excel-based tool at
http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/Economics%20of%20Replacement%20Strategies%20v.%201 1.25.2013.xlsx


According to the study mentioned earlier, if washing is dubious at best until more study is done, then how often should the rest of the lateral line should be changed? Seems to me if bacteria is impregnated in the line its not just in the drop. Is it more important to change out all the fittings and the tubing closest to the taps?

The further you get from the actual taphole, the less influence the tubing system component has on the sanitation. So changing the spout has the largest effect, changing the drop also has a sizeable effect (but not quite as large as the spout). Once you get to the lateral line and mainline, there is little (but some) effect of sanitation, and thus the economics of replacing those frequently is less favorable.
http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/tubing_age.pdf
At that point, it is mainly dependent upon other issues that have to do with tubing failure (mainly due to UV breakdown) or fitting failure (fittings pulling off of the tubing) which cause breaks and vacuum leaks.


I just installed this year a new 3/16ths line. I have to take it down each year due to cattle. Would like to know what the best way to do this to make it last for as long as practical.

It is important to realize that 3/16" tubing hasn't been around all too long, and that nearly all the research so far with sanitation and longevity has been done on 5/16" tubing, however since the tubing is made of the same material in the same way, there is no reason to suspect that the results will be any different. With that in mind, the tubing should be good for several years.

Thanks[/QUOTE]

[Flatlander]

Thank you for your response, Dr. Tim.

I do not run vacuum, but would using CV's (spouts or adapters) by called for on 3/16th inch tubing since it is under vacuum but not necessarily subject to the a lot of the back flow issues caused by pumps (shutdowns, releasers, etc)? Ice blockage would be the only example I can think of right now that would cause back flow to the taphole.

[maple flats]

For hydrogen peroxide you should not get it at a pharmacy. The medical type has preservatives in it that are toxic to humans. Thus only used for topical application. You want food grade, which is usually 35%. My first gal I bought many years ago thru the internet at $35/gal plus shipping. Then I discovered that the water treatment dealer I bought UV units from, along with lots of fittings, had 15 gal barrels of 35% food grade. They were in black barrels to exclude sun light, because sunlight breaks down the peroxide. I've been using that since. I likely still have about 6 gal left, but it will remain good as long as it does not get too hot (up over 110 degrees, and it does not get exposed to sunlight).
Check with a water treatment company. My 15 gal only cost me $140, or the price I had paid for 4 gal before freight, this had no freight added.
When working with it, wear the proper PPE, and don't get it on you, it will burn. I mix mine at 1.5 qt. per 100 gal water.

[DrTimPerkins]

..... would using CV's (spouts or adapters) by called for on 3/16th inch tubing since it is under vacuum but not necessarily subject to the a lot of the back flow issues caused by pumps (shutdowns, releasers, etc)?

During freeze-up, trees will pull sap up from any column of liquid that has connection to the tree. Usually this is primarily though the roots, but it can also occur in droplines. Sap could move up the droplines in 3/16" tubing as well (or better) than 5/16" tubing. Thus I would think (although I've not personally tested CV on 3/16" tubing) that you would see at least some benefit of using CV spouts on 3/16" tubing.