Vacuum system and pipeline at bottom of ravine...

[mwarren]

Behind my house I have a large ravine where a stream flows 9 months of the year. The ravine stretches about 100 feet across the top and approximately 50 feet deep. I have approximately 700-1000 taps on the other side of the ravine. If I install a pipeline system the beginning of the system would have to be at the bottom of the ravine. I plan on putting a tank down by the stream and then pumping the sap up to my sugarhouse.

Does anyone have suggestions for how I should tackle this? Should I run a dry line from my vacuum pump at my house down to a mechanical releaser in the woods? I really can't get power that far down to where the tank needs to be. Should I use a gas pump to pump the sap back up to my sugarhouse (75 feet in height and 600 feet in length) Should I try to use a series of sap ladders to lift the sap and get a larger more powerful vacuum pump? I don't have to go as deep in the ravine but it means that I will lose some of the taps. Anyone have ideas?

Thanks
Mike

[BreezyHill]

Behind my house I have a large ravine where a stream flows 9 months of the year. The ravine stretches about 100 feet across the top and approximately 50 feet deep. I have approximately 700-1000 taps on the other side of the ravine. If I install a pipeline system the beginning of the system would have to be at the bottom of the ravine. I plan on putting a tank down by the stream and then pumping the sap up to my sugarhouse.

Does anyone have suggestions for how I should tackle this? Should I run a dry line from my vacuum pump at my house down to a mechanical releaser in the woods? I really can't get power that far down to where the tank needs to be. Should I use a gas pump to pump the sap back up to my sugarhouse (75 feet in height and 600 feet in length) Should I try to use a series of sap ladders to lift the sap and get a larger more powerful vacuum pump? I don't have to go as deep in the ravine but it means that I will lose some of the taps. Anyone have ideas?

Thanks
Mike

Mike,
I have a similar situation and over the years we did the pump at the brook bed area...this proved to be a poor decision when rapid spring thaws would raise the brook over night and the tanks were in risk of flooding, or floating away in the stream...they would not go off the property but could be damaged.

Power lines always needed to be pulled in also in the spring and relayed in the early season.

The solution my dad started in the later 70's was sap ladders. He was a surge dealer so vac was no big deal.

He passed in 2010 and in 2012 I started retubing and redesigning the bush. No more tanks for pickup all sap to the sugar house with the vac pump. As of now I have a total of 10 ladders I think. There are two more if We get time to install them on an expansion.

What I would do is to get a few rolls of survey tape and start surveying for a 2% slope to location for ladders.

I use star ladders and pipe ladders. 1" pipe is to large for efficient lifting and I have planned to change two of these to 1/2" risers for better efficiency.

I run recycled and rebuilt/modified dairy pumps. Currently as of last nights run I have about 750-800 taps on a D 73. I have a backup pump that I also ran until I found a massive vac leak. 1" lat with no end plug. about 4000' from the pumps.

I run a tight system so I have to inject air.

Ladder heights vary from 6' to 18'. I rather not go over 16' as they seem more effective and efficient than 18'.

My main ladder line is 7 ladders to raise taps up 112' of risers. My elevation change on is also about 76'...the rest is slope to the next ladder at 2%.

2% is best to feed ladders from my experience due to a more even flow. My new line is only 1% and works well but had to be wire supported to keep grade.

The brook will provide a challenge of quicker freezing from the cold that settles in at night.

To conquer this, I have added dry lines and black pipe to the ladder system. It is vidal to not whip ladder lines together when ladders are in series. The removal of the air used to lift the sap ounce will be needed again and the degasing of the flow demand that more air be injected for the next ladder.

Not sure how indepth you would like but if this is a future build then come and visit and I will share the experience I have gained.

Ladders are only a tool that a producer can use to produce sap in a inexpensive way.



Ben

[CampHamp]

3/16 tubing would love that kind of drop. If you ran a main along the ravine bottom with long laterals with a dozen trees each down the drop, then you might very well use your vacuum and releaser money on a good transfer solution (float switch and run power to the pump or getting batteries and solar panels).

[mwarren]

Ben,
Thanks for the very descriptive post. My hope is to have the pipeline in this next fall (2015). Once I have all my lines set, and I know how many taps I am going to have, I will then figure out what equipment and how big of a sugarhouse I will need. My hope is to use ladders to lift the sap as I really don't want to have to mess around with a pumping station and tanks way down in the woods. I have read about people using ladders to lift the sap but I'm not sure I can totally picture it in my mind. I'd love to come down and check out your system. It sounds like your setup is very similar to what I will be trying to build. Can you email me direct at mdw0510@aol.com that way I'll have your contact info. Thanks Mike

[VT_K9]

This year we expanded to the lowest point in the orchard to the north. We placed a sap shack with the releaser and tank. We ran 750' of 1 1/2" vac. line and 750' of 1 1/2" pump line. We figure we have anywhere from 68-78' of elevation change from our sugar house (it depends on which GPS you use and how solid the signal is). Last fall we estimated the distance to be about 800-850 with about an 80' drop.

We used the Honda pump select online to look at pumps and see how they compare. Previously we used a Wayne electric pump with about a 450' run with 40' in elevation. We used to empty a 275 gallong tote in abotu 30 minutes or longer. Using the pump select we found a Honda WH15 pump gave the most gpm using 1 1/2" pipe. We looked at 2" pumps with different sizes of pipe and the gpm dropped. The pump select said we would get 23-27 gpm depending on exact length and elevation.

We tried the pump for the first time. My father timed a 5 gallon pail being filled in 33-36 seconds. This was quite lower than estimated. The pump dealer did not run the pump when we bought it last fall because the fuel would be sitting in it until now. I spoke with the delar and he said he can bench test the pump to make sure it was setup properly. We felt the rpms seemed a little low. We also have a couple leaks on the suction side of the pump. We fixed the leaks and they evealuated the pump. Now we are filling a 5 gallons pail in less than 15 seconds. I figure this is close enough for real world resuts when compared to theory.

We are going to set up small ladder to pick up the 10 taps around the releaser. I have been researching the ladders and theory behind them. I think we may have been able to use them with reasonable effectiveness to have stayed about 40' higher than we are now.

I would take a hard look at ladders and may be have somebody with more experience physically look at your location. If ladders don't work you can try a WH15 pump from Honda.

Mike

[GeneralStark]

Relying on sap ladders to lift all of your sap out of a ravine is a risky venture. Without knowing what your ultimate goals are ie: is this a hobby or a business venture, it is difficult to really effectively comment on how to best handle your situation, but if you are going to invest any kind of money into this sugaring operation I would seriously consider looking into more options than just sap ladders.

BreezyHill loves his ladders but if your only tool is a hammer everything will start to look like a nail. There are many sugarmakers that deal with your situation, and very few use ladders to lift all of their taps. Maybe to pick up a few here and there, but relying on them to manage all of your taps, especially in a cold ravine, is as I said very risky, especially during a cold season like this one.

If this is a hobby and you don't really care about your production, that is one thing, but if you want to get all the syrup out of your woods that you possibly can I would look beyond the few replies to this thread.

[Shiftman]

We have a similar set up. There are 2500 taps draining down a ravine to the bottom. We built a pump house with a vacuum and transfer pump powered by a generator.There is 800 gallons of storage that is tripped by a float valve. We are getting 27 in at the pump house and 23 in at the end of the lines. The pump line climbs about 180 feet to the top where our sugar shack is. Our biggest problem is the freezing pump line, still trying to get the slope right as it is or first season. The pump line is over 1km long and holds about 200 gallons of sap which we drain every night