Another first timer

[saphound]

Hello all,
I've kicked this idea around the last few years, usually around tapping time, but then summer comes along and I forget all about it. So needless to say I was totally unprepared to start again this year. So glad I found this site...I knew nothing about any part of tapping trees, how long you could store the sap, sugar content, boiling and finishing syrup..none of it. But after reading here the last few weeks, I decided to go for it last week. I have 10 hard maples tapped and it was running enough last week to get about 20 gal by last Saturday. Since I started collecting on Monday, some of it was 5 days old so I figured I'd better try making some syrup. So with a borrowed turkey fryer I started boiling, not knowing what kind of gph to expect or if my one tank of propane would even last long enough to do it all. I had no way to test the sap, but I figured it just HAD to be around 2%, since they were sugar maples, lol. Well it took 12 hours in that fryer to get the 20 gals down to about one gal of "almost syrup, and nearly all of the propane. I bring it in the house to finish, thinking I just need to reduce by half to get the half gallon of syrup I was expecting out of 20 gals of 2% sap. Had no hydrometer..just a fairly new candy thermometer. I put the syrup on one burner and a pot of water on another burner to see what temp water boiled on this day and elevation. Thermometer reads 207 in rapidly boiling water. Ok this thing is a piece of crap, I say, but don't panic, just add 7 degrees to that and stop at 214. So it boils and boils, I stir and watch the thermometer rise painfully slow and my syrup level drop painfully fast. Bubbles are tiny, it's foaming up and wants to climb the pan so I rub a little butter on the inside and it calms down. I can see now I'm down to about an inch of syrup and I'm still at 213*. Stupid thermometer. That's it, this has to be done I say and remove what little is left to my waiting filter. I'm surprised it even went through but it did. 2 measly pints of overly done syrup. It pours like honey once it cooled. But the flavor is amazing and it's the best dang syrup I've ever had! Most expensive too :lol: I could have bought about 3 gallons of syrup for what I spent so far for those 2 pints. But can't wait to do it again!;)

[Kbrooks80]

Welcome to the addiction.

[Run Forest Run!]

I loved reading your story saphound. There's nothing better than homemade. :) Please keep us all posted on your progress this season.

[Cedar Eater]

Welcome, saphound. Great story. Add a wee bit of boiled sap to each pint and it will flow a little better and still taste great. Or just nuke what you're going to use to make it flow a little better.

[saphound]

Thanks Karen and kbrooks, I will. :) I ordered a sap hydrometer and a syrup hydrometer from The Maple Guys and they came yesterday. Also a new digital thermometer from amazon. I tested the sap I have collected since Sunday (about 15 gal) and it tests at 1.5, but I have removed a good half inch of ice each of the last two days before testing it, (it's in a 30 gal tote) so maybe it was 1 brix before removing the ice? Kinda explains my low yield, plus the over boiling. Next time should be better, but I sure hope the sugar goes up some. These are woods trees about 16-24 diameter.

One question I do have is.. if overboiled, at what point would you see cyrstals form? I don't see anything yet, but could it still happen as time goes on? Maybe I should do what others have done and mix it in with the next batch? Thanks.

Edit: Whoops, was replying and didn't see yours, Cedar Eater. Thanks for the tips, I will try that first.

[Run Forest Run!]

I believe that crystals form when the brix is at, or over, 67. Crystals take a few weeks to start to form, but appear all the faster the higher the brix is.

For this overboiled batch, just put it back into a pot on the stove and add a little water or sap to it. Warm it up and then enjoy it. It'll be gone before you know it.

[saphound]

Hi Karen,
so, just warm it up if I add sap and not bring to boil? These will be stored in the fridge. And I spoke too soon..today I can see some tiny sugar crystals forming at the bottom of the partially used pint. Don't see any in the other one yet. Will they dissolve back into the syrup when I heat it up? Thanks.

[Cedar Eater]

Hi Karen,
so, just warm it up if I add sap and not bring to boil? These will be stored in the fridge. And I spoke too soon..today I can see some tiny sugar crystals forming at the bottom of the partially used pint. Don't see any in the other one yet. Will they dissolve back into the syrup when I heat it up? Thanks.

That may not be sugar crystals that you're seeing. It may be niter that got through the filter. If you're going to store it in the fridge and use it soon, it's less important to boil the sap. Heat it up over 180 for a while, but stay below 190.

[Sugarmaker]

Welcome. It can get much worse. Check you bank account often:)
Regards,
Chris

[Run Forest Run!]

Hi Karen,
so, just warm it up if I add sap and not bring to boil? These will be stored in the fridge. And I spoke too soon..today I can see some tiny sugar crystals forming at the bottom of the partially used pint. Don't see any in the other one yet. Will they dissolve back into the syrup when I heat it up? Thanks.

Yes if they are, in fact, small sugar crystals forming they will dissolve when you thin out and heat the syrup. You don't need to boil the syrup. Just heat it and eat it.

[saphound]

Ok thanks guys and gals.. If it were niter, wouldn't I have seen it from the beginning? or does that form later too?

Lol Chris..I think I can tell you're speaking from experience. And I know I'm not done yet..but my plans for next year aren't too extreme. A block arch and three steamer pans is all. Let me guess.. that's what you said a long time ago, ha.

[Run Forest Run!]

Niter doesn't form later, but it does settle to the bottom and become more obvious a day or two later. Sugar crystals looks like small clear gem stones.

[Galena]

Welcome to the madness of sugaring, saphound, and great story! Nitre will appear in the bottom of your containers as a thin, usually mud-brownish sludgy coating. It won't hurt you if you ingest it - it's all minerals from the tree - but it will cloud syrup, and naturally everyone wants nice clear syrup to show off :-)

[saphound]

ok thanks for that info Galena...this looks like small clear gemstones like Karen described. Tomorrow I will heat it up with a little sap. Thanks for all the help with my questions!:) Now another one has come up, lol. When doing such a small batch, I'm looking at my hydro cup and thinking it will take nearly all the syrup I had in the pot to fill the cup. And then you'll probably lose some in the process cuz it sticks to the sides, and if you have to check it multiple times you lose more out of a tiny batch. And how to get it from the pot to the cup, it's not deep enough to dip. What's a newbie to do? :confused:

[Galena]

ok thanks for that info Galena...this looks like small clear gemstones like Karen described. Tomorrow I will heat it up with a little sap. Thanks for all the help with my questions!:) Now another one has come up, lol. When doing such a small batch, I'm looking at my hydro cup and thinking it will take nearly all the syrup I had in the pot to fill the cup. And then you'll probably lose some in the process cuz it sticks to the sides, and if you have to check it multiple times you lose more out of a tiny batch. And how to get it from the pot to the cup, it's not deep enough to dip. What's a newbie to do? :confused:

Ah feel yer pain, saphound, cause' I also tend to make fairly small batches - 4l is the most I've ever done, I think. I am also reluctant to use the hydro cup for the same reasons, even a small one of those takes a cup or so of syrup...which wipes out 1/3 of my first batch!! ;-) Also I am quite new to using a hydro. I poured the syrup into the hydro, but did make sure the hydro was sitting firmly in a small stainless-steel bowl so it would catch the overflow.

Sadly there will be some syrup loss, but as it's still quite early in the season here's what I suggest: rinse out the hydrotherm as best you can with either fresh sap, or distilled water, and put the residue in a clean jar. Then simply add to your next batch of sap once you start to boil again. So though you will lose it from that one batch, it should make it into the next!

Oh ETA:...if you do decide to keep the rinsed-out residue from hydrotherm, either freeze it (make sure to leave lots of headroom in the jar) or boil it ASAP (pun not intended). I once made some nearup using this residue, but left it sitting in the fridge a little too long, and it spoiled on me. So if it smells REALLY bad, probably cloudy and comes out clumpy like badly set jelly, toss it out!

[Run Forest Run!]

Saphound, since this is such a small batch don't worry about using your hydro cup. Just put the syrup in a pot, add a little bit of water (maybe a 1/4 cup at the most) and warm up the batch. Since it will be gone after a couple of good pancake breakfasts it's not worth the worry and the waste. Enjoy your first batch and deal with the fancy equipment when you've got a larger amount. Make sure to keep this syrup in the fridge as it won't be heat sealed. :)

[Cedar Eater]

If you're not planning to sell it, I see no particular reason to use the hydrometer. When you get the temperature up to 7.1 F over the boiling temp of water, and then make sure you're getting sheeting, you're close enough. But if you want to use a hydro and don't want to lose the syrup that sticks to the sides of the cup, rinse your cup in fresh sap that you're going to process later. You can also rinse the inside of your finishing pan with fresh sap and dump it into sap storage.

[saphound]

All good input..thanks to all. Karen, I wasn't really referring to that last batch, more to future small batches...like maybe this weekend. Sap has really slowed down the last couple days and unless that changes between now and Saturday, (it might) I will be boiling less this weekend than last weekend. I'm inclined to agree with Cedar Eater..I might have to forego the hydrometer again, hope my new thermometer arrives in time and fly by the seat of my pants again. If I do end up using the hydro, saving the rinse-out syrup water makes sense too..good idea Galena. :cool:

[Run Forest Run!]

Saphound, when I have had numerous small 'almost syrup' ('nearup', as some of us affectionately call it) batches I save them up and then do one large finishing batch. That saves on clean up time and gives you enough syrup to be able to properly use your hydrometer. Just keep the batches of nearup in the fridge or, better yet, freeze them for finishing later if you only get little bits at a time. I think you'll find doing this much easier than lots of small boiling sessions.

[S&STappers]

Try using a refractometer. I bought an Ade Advanced Optics from Amazon for around $30. It measures from 58-90 brix. The best part is it only takes a drop of syrup to run a test. No wasting our precious liquid gold!

[saphound]

Karen, Now that is a heck of a good idea. Would gallon sized ziplock bags be suitable for nearup storage? If not what do you use?

S&S, Yeah I looked at some of those. Have you been happy with the accuracy of that model? Thanks.

[Flatlader]

1120911210
Hope I got the pictures transfered.The one is of the burners on my portable stove. I use 2 full size 6"tall steam pans. as I get to the end of the run I transfer almost syrup to 1 pan and finish in it. I use the turkey fryer as a preheater and transfer directly into the steam pans and never lose the boil. With this setup I boil about 5 gal per hour. Last year I only used the turkey fryer and it took forever to boil 30-40 gal of sap.

[saphound]

Nice Flatlader. I bought one of those steamer pans thinking I could use it on the turkey fryer burner but it didn't work out..the frame kept it too high from the flame. I was pre-heating in another pot inside the house..kind of a pain but it worked. I like that twin burner stove..how is it on gas..will one tank do a 30-40 gal batch?

[Flatlader]

I use a 30 pound tank of propane(6gal.) So far, with 2.8% sap, it boils 31gal of sap all the way to finish. I know it's not as cheap as wood but with my job and the amount of syrup I make it's very convienient.

[saphound]

I hear that. I could have cut a bunch of firewood if I had thought ahead. Too much snow in the woods to get it now. I think I might get one of those twin burners..could always use it to preheat even if I go to wood next year.

[Flatlader]

I only make 4-5 gallons of syrup a year so it just don't seem to worth it to build an arch,cut and dry wood,tend fire ect.

[Cedar Eater]

saphound, if you have either natural gas or propane for heating your house, it might be worth it to pipe from inside to outside to fuel your cookers. It's much cheaper to burn household fuel than bottled propane. If you use natural gas, you will need to get new orifices for your cookers. If you use LP gas, you may need to use 1/2" lines to supply a high BTU turkey fryer.

[Cedar Eater]

Sportsmans Guide has a cheap two burner stove with burners very similar to the one Flatlader uses. Each burner puts out 15,000 BTU.

[Run Forest Run!]

Saphound, I suppose you could use ziplock bags but I think a more firm container would be less prone to accidental spillage. I use some of my large stock pots, empty gallon jugs, pitchers....that kind of thing.

One thing about propane burners, if you do decide to get a flat style one instead of a turkey fryer type make sure that the BTUs are high enough to do the job. That is the style that I use and each of mine is 65,000 BTUs. If you diddle around with low output you'll be outside until June trying to make your syrup. ;)

[Flatlader]

Cedar. I got mine from Sugarbush in Mason Mi. It's a Bayou Classic 2 burner.$118. Sportsman sells it for $130.

[Flatlader]

Karen. what brand of burner do you use.

[Run Forest Run!]

Karen. what brand of burner do you use.

Flatlader, this is what I have two of:

http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index.htm/Outdoor-Living/Seasonal/Barbecues/Outdoor-Burners/Propane/1-Burner-Outdoor-Propane-Stove-with-Hose-and-Regulator/_/N-ntmdk/R-I6420768

[saphound]

Saphound, I suppose you could use ziplock bags but I think a more firm container would be less prone to accidental spillage. I use some of my large stock pots, empty gallon jugs, pitchers....that kind of thing.

One thing about propane burners, if you do decide to get a flat style one instead of a turkey fryer type make sure that the BTUs are high enough to do the job. That is the style that I use and each of mine is 65,000 BTUs. If you diddle around with low output you'll be outside until June trying to make your syrup. ;)

Karen, when you say each puts out 65k, do you mean each burner on the same unit does, or the total of the two together does and you have more than one unit. I take it you think 15k is not enough?

Cedar Eater, I do have LP gas..for a gas stove and gas dryer. I actually already have a line run outside to my gas grill on the front deck. I would have set up there last Saturday but it rained all day and there is no roof over it. I didn't realize that would be cheaper gas..I'll have to figure out a shelter of some sort...thanks.

Edit: Whoops, you beat me to it Karen...I'll check out your link...

[Flatlader]

Thanks for the linc Karen. I've never heard of that store. But if I can't find something comparible around here I'll pick on up at Canadian Tire om my next trip to Bancroft.

My god I spelled everything wrong!!!

[saphound]

Lol Flatlader..you could have fixed your misspellings while you were editing.

Thats a beauty Karen..doesn't seem available in the states tho :(..I'll have to look around.

[Run Forest Run!]

Thanks for the linc Karen. I've never heard of that store. But if I can't find something comparible around here I'll pick on up at Canadian Tire om my next trip to Bancroft.

My god I spelled everything wrong!!!

Canadian Tire does sell a similar unit to the one sold at our Home Hardware stores. Both stores are in plentiful supply here so if you can't find the burner at one store you'll be able to find one at the other.

[Flatlader]

Just checked. Bancroft does have a Home Hardware in addition to Candian Tire. It will give me someplace new to go next time I'm up there. Thanks for the info.

[67HEAVEN]

Thanks for the linc Karen. I've never heard of that store.

There are over 1,000 Home Hardware stores in Canada - http://homehardware.ca/en/index/store-locator.htm

There's a store right in Bancroft. You can order it online and have it shipped to the Bancroft store (for pickup) if they don't have them in stock.

[Flatlader]

Thanks 67heaven. I've been in that store a few times,just didn't realize what it was. Sometimes I go brain dead. Has something to do with my age or something. I'll be going up in a few weeks I'll have my buddy pick one up for me. Thanks again.

[Homespun]

My old "turkey fryer" setup has its original 150,000 btu burner (serious heat output). To get this level of heat output from this burner requires a 0-30 psi adjustable "high pressure" LP regulator installed on the hose, which I bought last year. Most of these burners originally came with a 20 psi regulator regulator (like the typical LP gas grill), which wouldn't allow this high of a heat output. If I remember correctly, the original 20 psi regulator would max out at 85,000 btu, even though the burner can handle much more. The heat output/flame size can be contolled by adjusting the regulator or shutoff valve on the hose, so I can adjust my flame/heat output from very low to simmer to high for maximum boiling capability...works just like a kitchen gas range flame adjustment.


I hope this helps!

[Run Forest Run!]

That's some serious BTUs Homespun!

[saphound]

Can you have too much power? What do you think of this one..185,000 BTU, on sale for 37.99
http://www.turkey-fryers-online.com/bc-sp1-turkey-fryer-jet-burner.htm

[Run Forest Run!]

I don't think you can saphound. Just don't turn your back on it until you are familiar with how it functions - well that holds true for pretty much everything doesn't it? Unless someone here tells you otherwise I'd go for it! If you can score a large hotel steam pan (vs. a round deep pot) to increase your surface area you'll be boiling your brains out in no time!

[saphound]

I did already buy a 6" deep full size steamer pan thinking I'd use it on the borrowed turkey fryer, but the frame of the base kept it too far from the flame and I couldn't get a good boil. The round pot fit down inside so I had to switch to that. I'll wait a bit to see if anyone thinks that's too hot. Hope not...two of these is cheaper than the twin burners I looked at that don't go near that high.

[Homespun]

Saphound - The links below show what my fryer's parts critical parts look like (I already had the burner which was mounted in it's original pot stand):

My new 0-30 psi regulator: http://www.turkey-fryers-online.com/bc-5hpr30-turkey-fryer-regulator-kit.htm
My original burner (w/ orfice and movable air shutter): http://www.turkey-fryers-online.com/cc-605-turkey-fryer-replacement-burner.htm

I'm guessing the regulator on your link it is pre-set at 30 psi (non adjustable pressure) and the little adjustment valve after it is how heat is controlled.

The important point is they say that unit puts out 185,000 as is, so It looks like it's equivilant to mine!

Happy boiling!

[saphound]

Yeah, I'm really close to ordering it, Homespun. I'm wondering..it probably sucks the gas pretty good at 185k..does it all even out in the end with less time boiling? Thanks.

[Homespun]

Based on my poor memory from science classes, it's going to take a certain amount of heat to boil away a certain amount of water (sap). You can do it very slowly with a low heat output burner or faster with a higher heat output burner. Assuming you have no wasted heat to the surrounding air, around the pot, etc., (100% of the heat generated went into the sap) then they would use the same amount of gas to do the same job. The only difference would be the speed of doing it.

My Avatar shows how I tried to minimize heat loss and focus or funnel my burner's heat to the pot (a very large Wok) as best I can by using a sheetmetal wind shield around the burner to within 1/4"-1/2" of the pot's sides...this gap is to let the heat/exhaust out and make it flow up the sides of the pot a little bit. I also laid a full size, shiny sheetmetal heat shield underneath the pot stand to help reflect any radiant heat upwards towards the pot, rather than let it heat up the ground & grass.

[saphound]

Interesting...that's a heck of a nice wok, btw. But let me put it another way..If you had, say 30-40 gal of sap to boil..could you do it with one 20lb tank of propane and how long would it take you (gph). Thanks.

[Homespun]

Interesting...that's a heck of a nice wok, btw. But let me put it another way..If you had, say 30-40 gal of sap to boil..could you do it with one 20lb tank of propane and how long would it take you (gph). Thanks.

I think it might, if you can focus or funnel all the burner heat to the pan bottom using wind shields. I forgot to mention I have an inner sheet metal wind shield that fills the several inch gap between the burner's factory wind shield and the pot support bars. My other post said my burner is 185,000 btu, so I think the picture (attached) labeling it as 250,000 btu is wrong. I boiled at 2 GPH (medium flame most of the time) because the maximum flame would scorch the wok's sides as the sap level dropped. I was adding pre-warmed sap everytime the level dropped a couple of inches, rather than a slow & constant feed rate that matched the boiling rate. A large flat bottom pan would probably let me run it much hotter without the scorching problem.
11231

[Run Forest Run!]

Interesting...that's a heck of a nice wok, btw. But let me put it another way..If you had, say 30-40 gal of sap to boil..could you do it with one 20lb tank of propane and how long would it take you (gph). Thanks.

Saphound, here's my data from today. My two hotel pans boiled off 2 gallons/hour of sap each today. In 6.5 hours and I boiled a total of 27 gallons. It took me a half tank of propane each. Over the years it's averaged out that it takes two 20lb BBQ tanks to make one gallon of finished syrup. That's on my 65,000 BTU burners. Perhaps someone else can chime in who has more powerful burners and compare their results to mine. I'd be very interested to know how much difference there is.

[Cedar Eater]

Cedar. I got mine from Sugarbush in Mason Mi. It's a Bayou Classic 2 burner.$118. Sportsman sells it for $130.

This is the two burner equivalent of a stove I use that's connected directly to my home propane.

http://www.meatprocessingproducts.com/buf-dbcis.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwiq-oBRC9gvHCsvDdn2cSJACV3DFRd4qSzEgYAI6i-xOvlKWoy-CXMhPtgIDsUQrXKqX4QBoCr-3w_wcB

My stove will boil 8 quarts of preheated sap at a rate of 1 qph in a 12 quart round pan. This stove will probably just double that. The wooden deck beneath it will get hot, so I raise mine on cinder blocks. I like being able to check on the boil once per hour, add one preheated gallon and reset the timer for one hour.

[saphound]

Saphound, here's my data from today. My two hotel pans boiled off 2 gallons/hour of sap each today. In 6.5 hours and I boiled a total of 27 gallons. It took me a half tank of propane each. Over the years it's averaged out that it takes two 20lb BBQ tanks to make one gallon of finished syrup. That's on my 65,000 BTU burners. Perhaps someone else can chime in who has more powerful burners and compare their results to mine. I'd be very interested to know how much difference there is.

Good to know, Karen and Homespun. By hotel pans, do you mean the steam table pans? (probably). 6" or 4" deep? You're doing better than I did.. so far 1 tank = 2 pts ha. It took me 12 hrs to turn about 20 gals into nearup...with one round turkey pot. I have no idea what the btu rating on it is. Doubt it's 65k tho. It's starting to sound like 2 gals/hr is about all you can expect from each pan doing it on propane unless you had a bigger evaporator pan, like a 2x4 or something. Is the goal to boil as hard as possible?..or could you boil too hard and end up with more niter, darker syrup, etc. I'd be interested to know too, maybe blasting it with a full 185k could increase gph without hurting the syrup.

Btw..I added some boiled sap to my thick syrup..worked great.:cool:

Also, I looked at your link Cedar Eater...that's a nice one, good price too, but they don't give the btu rating..do you know what it is?

[Homespun]

I'm confident that with a very large flat bottom pan (about 6" deep) I could boil about 6 GPH on my setup, because I can turn the heat up to maximum. My kitchen stove's largest burner does 2 GPH. Turkey pots don't seem to boil down sap as fast, probably because they are so deep and not letting the steam blow away as easily.

My inexperienced opinions are:

I think you want to boil has hard & fast as you can.
I don't think doing so would increase niter.
Vigorous boiling may increase color and flavor due to some sap splashing on the hot, dry sides of the pan and having the sugar in that splashed sap carmelizing.
Very dark or black carmelization is usually scorched or burnt sugar, which would probably give the syrup a burnt flavor.
Many have or still use the 6" deep steam table pans, with great results. The key is a large surface area and not too much depth for faster boiling and less fuel use.

I hope more experienced members will add their input & suggestions.

[Run Forest Run!]

Saphound, I've read in sugaring books that when your sap is boiling you can boil off 1 gallon of liquid per square foot of surface area of your pan. My hotel pans are about 2 square feet each, hence I'm able to boil off 4 gallons per hour in total when both are running. Using a pot to boil your sap provides much less surface area than a rectangular pan. Oh, and yes, I do mean steam table pans when I'm speaking about hotel pans.

[saphound]

Thanks Karen, So..I wonder if that means 1 gal per square foot no matter how fast it boils? I know from cooking there is a slow boil and a rapid boil..maybe there's a supersonic boil? lol

[Run Forest Run!]

I think you can use 1 gallon per square foot as a given. You might get a little more or a little less depending on the intensity of the boil, but I would doubt it's drastic.

[Locust Farms]

Here is my evap rate(oz sq in surf area*0.41) You can increase the rate by adding a fan to agitate the surface. Will require more heat to maintain boil to make up for increase in evaporation rate.

Dwight

[saphound]

Quote: (oz sq in surf area*0.41)
Well I wish I could decipher that LF, but I'm having a little trouble, lol..what does that mean in non-Einstein terms.. I get using the fan part. :lol:

[ridgerunner394]

11258

Good thread folks. I had this pan made up to fit my 3 burner Denali. It has a small partition at one end with a slow drip adding (not pre heated) sap as the larger section boils away. In essence it acts as the pre heater box. With 3 burners (30btu each) the main body of the pan sits atop 2 full burners and 1/2 of the the last which heats both the pre heater section and main body.

My experience last year and this is get it to rolling boil and keep it there - my biggest problem is the pressure in the 20lb tank drops and my burners loose intensity so by the end of the day it is still boiling but not rolling. 20lb for the day usually gets me through 25 gallons to 212 F and then to the finishing pan.

john

[Run Forest Run!]

11258

my biggest problem is the pressure in the 20lb tank drops and my burners loose intensity so by the end of the day it is still boiling but not rolling. 20lb for the day usually gets me through 25 gallons to 212 F and then to the finishing pan.

john

Some days that's really frustrating. You've been boiling for hours and the intensity of the boil drops and you just want to finish up and go inside. Some days I just switch out to a new tank and chalk up the remaining propane left in the original tank to CDB - the cost of doing business. ;)

[saphound]

This will probably raise a few eyebrows, but if you have a way to SAFELY keep the propane tank warm, you won't lose pressure. Are you seeing heavy frost build up on your tank? If you are it's time to warm it up. I use a heat gun..there are other ways. As long as the valve is open pressure can't build up inside the tank. It's what I've done for years in the masonry business during the winter months. Melt that frost and you will see and hear your intensity come back.

Edit: Looking at your picture, John, if you could fashion a stand for your propane tank above in that steam instead of under the Denali I bet that would work if it wasn't too windy. It's all wasted heat at that point anyway. It just needs to stay warm, not hot!
I plan on hooking into my house gas so I shouldn't have to worry about that from now on, but if that wasn't an option I'd figure a way to use that heat.

[Run Forest Run!]

Hmmm. Would wrapping a strip of pink insulation around each tank help much? My tanks are definitely getting all frosted up these days. So much so that they often freeze to the driveway.

[67HEAVEN]

I moved my tank a few feet out of the shade. The sun helps.

[brass maple]

Karen
If you wrap the insulation around the tank it will stop any residual heat from warming the tank. What makes the tank get colder and frost up is the gas going out of the tank at the rate that your rig needs it to. (A barbecue grill won't do this because I consumes way less gas). Heating a propane tank doesn't seem like a good practice but using a paint heat gun like sap hound said will help get your pressure back up till it starts to frost up again. A job I used to work at we used an open flame, boy would osha love to see that lol

[saphound]

Well you already have a heat source going, your burner. If you can put the tank up on a stand near the burner where it catches a little heat, I think you'd see a world of difference. Monitor it carefully...feel it with your hand..if it's more than just slightly warm, move it a little further away. If it's cool to the touch but no frost, that might be good enough too. Just make sure it isn't hot to the touch. If you're not comfortable doing this, then you probably shouldn't do it. But with the valve open full blast pressure can't build up. I've used a gas torch turned on low under the frozen tank sitting on cinder blocks. Never had a problem, but I'm a little crazy anyway, ha.

[Locust Farms]

Saphound. Will Try to clarify, was not very clear, Sorry.
Length and width of pan in inches example
(24"*24"= 576 sq"*.41=236.16 /128=1.845 gal hr.)
Get almost double with air. Use this as reference . Burner is 24,000 btu ,cannot maintain good boil with fan on high speed.

Dwight

[saphound]

Thanks Dwight..that's a handy formula..I get it now. Really?..almost double with a fan going, eh? I'll have to try that. :cool:

[ridgerunner394]

I like the idea of using the existing heat source of the steam along with the lost heat around the sides of wind skirt to warm the tank, thanks saphound. I will need to scratch my head a bit to see if I can make that work. Looks like we are back into the deep freeze for a couple more days so I will have time to McGiver something !

[Run Forest Run!]

Karen
If you wrap the insulation around the tank it will stop any residual heat from warming the tank. What makes the tank get colder and frost up is the gas going out of the tank at the rate that your rig needs it to. (A barbecue grill won't do this because I consumes way less gas).

Thanks for explaining that. It makes total sense.


Saphound. Will Try to clarify, was not very clear, Sorry.
Length and width of pan in inches example
(24"*24"= 576 sq"*.41=236.16 /128=1.845 gal hr.)
Get almost double with air. Use this as reference . Burner is 24,000 btu ,cannot maintain good boil with fan on high speed.
Dwight

Locust, are you saying that if you add a fan blowing over the top of your pan you get 3.6 gal/hour evaporation instead of 1.8? If that's true I'm all in!

[Locust Farms]

The increase in evap rate will vary based on available heat and air velocity. Am currently using as a finisher a 33 qt cooker with a small 2 speed personal fan as a wind source placed approx 16" from & above pan and angled to swirl steam. On my main evaporator equipped with a 32"x56" flat stainless pan using a window fan wind source ,getting approx 12 gallon hr evap rate. Depends on how well I am able to keep wood on fire.

Dwight

[Maplesapper]

11258

My experience last year and this is get it to rolling boil and keep it there - my biggest problem is the pressure in the 20lb tank drops and my burners loose intensity so by the end of the day it is still boiling but not rolling. 20lb for the day usually gets me through 25 gallons to 212 F and then to the finishing pan.

john

Place the Propane tank into a water bath. We place ours in a 55 gallon drum. The water, even cold water, prevents the tank from freezing up.

[saphound]

Interesting, Maplesapper, Never tried that. I was just doing some reading on this subject. Turns out freezing is kind of a misnomer. The only thing actually freezing is the humidity from the outside air condensing on the tank. The frost is a symptom of whats going on inside the tank.. It's trying to keep up with the demand of the appliance it's connected to. Here is a quote from where I was reading:

"When the appliance starts up, you are drawing off vapour and burning that. This lowers the pressure in the container and the liquid begins to boil to replace the vapour. Propane boils at -44° F, so the liquid needs to absorb heat from somewhere to maintain the boiling process. It gets that from the mass of the container and the air around it.
As the ambient air temperature drops the cylinders capacity to produce vapour also drops. Typically a 100lb cylinder is capable of producing 50,000 btu's at 32° F. So a 20lb grill tank isn't going to come close to that, the cylinder is too small to vapourize enough propane to meet the demand of the appliance it is connected to. You need to increase the size of the cylinder you are connecting or reduce the output of the appliance. One other option is to connect multiple cylinders together ( a maximum of three ) to increase the vapour capacity." End of quote.

So, it would seem to me that even cold water is a lot warmer than -44F and the propane can draw heat from it. Warm water would work even better if you could keep it warm. And any other heat source on the tank will work too.
This also makes me wonder if a 20 lb tank could ever keep up with a 185,000 btu appliance no matter what you do.
And I just ordered one.:rolleyes: Oh well, I'll probably have to turn it down some until I hook up to the house gas that uses a 200lb tank.
Now, if I could just get some sap to boil!...:mad:.. one more cold day...the rest of the week looks promising tho! :cool:

[Cedar Eater]

Just like with sap, the rate at which propane boils is relative to the surface area of the liquid/gas interface and to other factors. You can increase the evap rate on 100 pounders by tilting the tank to increase that surface area as the tank empties. You just want to avoid getting liquid propane into the outlet. Tilting a 20 pounder makes little difference, because they're much closer to spherical.

[Homespun]

Maplesapper & Cedar Eater have given excellent advice to follow.

Our son does a lot of home brewing with two 250,000 btu multi jet burners, using 20 lb LP tanks. I gave him some plastic 55 gallon barrels which I cut in half to make two short barrels. He would fill one with warm water and put his tank in it while brewing. It works well, but as the tank empties it seems to tip sideways a bit & almost float in the water. He would tie or weigh the tank down to keep it upright to prevent this.

He's also tried rigging his garden hose to spray a continuous fine water spray over the tank, while it sits on his lawn or patio (not in a water barrel). This worked well too.

Now he uses 3 full tanks that he keeps warm (and pre-warms the night before) inside his house on brewing day. When one gets too low on output, he swaps it for another warm tank from his house and repeats the process for the next tank. By the time he third tank is tired, the first tank is warm enough to replace it.

All methods allow him to do brewing all day.

I think the water bath immersion or garden hose's constant spray is the best method to use on the 20 lb tanks. Water to tank metal heat transfer is faster than air to tank heat transfer.

[Cedar Eater]

Warming tanks inside a house is risky. Sometimes pressure relief valves fail and that's more likely to happen while they are warming. It's a very rare for it to happen, but if it does, they can release a dangerous amount of gas in a very short time, and there's no way to shut it off. A waterbath is much safer, although the tank will float on it. An electric pond heater in a water bath will help keep the water temp up if the air temp is close to freezing.

[saphound]

I tried an experiment this morning with the small 1lb propane bottle I use to light my coal stove. I thought there was enough coal in the hopper to last till morning, but it went out. That bottle would do the same thing, especially as it gets lower in propane...frost up and the flame really slow down. Usually I would shake the bottle and that would help produce more gas. (The tip is on a 3 foot rubber hose.) Anyway, I had a pot of hot water ready and when it started to frost and slow down I put the bottle in it. Worked great!..almost instantly you could hear the difference and it ran at full speed from then on.
Thanks for the great tip, Maplesapper! Can't wait to try it on my next batch of sap. :cool:

[ridgerunner394]

great advise from all - I will try the water bath maplesapper I think with my set up that will be the best route to go Thanks! Mild here today, lots of fog but negative sap....

[brass maple]

For someone that many is no object this would work really well. Wrap it around the tank and plug it in. Pricey but would work allowing that you have electricity of coursehttp://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=%2Bdrum+%2Bheater

[saphound]

Well, I did a small batch yesterday, about 12 gals of week old sap. I put a tank that was maybe 1/4 full in a plastic tub of water. The water level was only about 3" up the side of the tank. No frost and it ran strong until it went empty. Switched to a new full tank, put it in the water and it never frosted either..but I didn't need much of that tank, maybe 1/4 of it and I was done. I really think it made a difference in the boil tho..it was pretty violent in there..more so than I remember seeing the first time. When I dumped the last pot of preheated sap in the 30qt turkey fryer pot, it looked half full. Thought I had time for a quick bite to eat...wrong. Half hour later it was already past syrup...very thick and starting to scorch. I killed the heat and quickly dunked the pot in the tub of water. Luckily there is a tree tapped nearby that had some new sap in the bucket so I was able to thin it right away or I'm sure I would have had a big lump of sugar. Anyway, it doesn't taste that bad, very sweet but does have a slight burnt aftertaste to it. Not bad enough to throw out tho...we'll use it. Haven't filtered it yet but it looks like a qt or so of syrup...more than I got from the first batch from 20 gals of sap. Removing the ice all week had brought this sap to around 4 on the hydrometer...really made a difference in boil time. :cool:

[ridgerunner394]

I had a part tank this morning to start my boil, it began frosting on lower 1/3 so I put it into a water bath with warm tap water up to just over half high on the sides. What a difference! I could not believe how well the tank fed the 3 burners. The boil continued until the tank was empty, none of this slowly burning off the last bit with a low flame... just kept going on a boil till it was empty.

I do believe the boil was noticeably faster also so need to keep an eye on this to get used to it.

I wish I had this knowledge last year - good news is I now have it for next year!!

[saphound]

That's what I experienced too, ridgerunner. This really was a good tip. Did you notice any ice form around the bottom of the tank? I had some, but it didn't seem to affect the burn at all, kinda weird but I wasn't complaining. :cool:

[Run Forest Run!]

When I do my next boil (probably tomorrow) I am DEFINITELY going to be trying this water bath idea. It sounds like just the ticket! Thanks for the idea and for the reports by those who tried it.

[saphound]

I think you'll be pleased, Karen. Let us know what happens. :cool:

[ridgerunner394]

11410Yes I did Saphound, there was a thin layer of ice below the water line! Like you mention though it did not seem to make a difference. Thanks again Maplesapper for the great tip.

As the tank became lighter and started float on its side I placed a dowl through the top to keep it upright, that plus the use of a smaller tote bin with the water in it worked out really nicely.

I think you will notice a faster boil "Karen" I almost lost my batch today - was not prepared for it to be done as soon as it was and when I did my quick look it was starting to climb the walls ! JUST in time = 3.5 Litres of the good stuff today :cool:

[Run Forest Run!]

That's a great haul today for you ridgerunner. Can't wait to boil what I've got in storage. Holy cow it's cold out here today!! No taps are running here and we've got a wind chill forecast for tonight of -23C. I'm sure it's similar for where you are too.

[saphound]

RR..like I said, mine wasn't deep enough to make it float, but I had a cinderblock ready to lay across the top if it did. I noticed a faster boil too and almost lost mine too....in fact it did scorch a little. Keep a close eye on it Karen. :cool:

[JP Quality Maple Syrup]

O.K. If I had a crane and a hot tub I could get my 100 gallons in the holding tank frozen solid for a week up and in it but alas I am watching the thermometer sitting at 1C for a day but still a block of ice. I told my buddy I am going to sell it on line as a big popsicle.

[ridgerunner394]

11479the week is full of firsts. Made some "sugar on snow" for granddaughter, made some maple sugar with the remaining syrup from that exercise and today, although cold and very little sap in buckets, I had my first sallow moth of the season in a pail.

[Run Forest Run!]

That must be the one that I took out of my bucket last week. He gets around. ;)

[Run Forest Run!]

11410Yes I did Saphound, there was a thin layer of ice below the water line! Like you mention though it did not seem to make a difference. Thanks again Maplesapper for the great tip.

As the tank became lighter and started float on its side I placed a dowl through the top to keep it upright, that plus the use of a smaller tote bin with the water in it worked out really nicely.

I think you will notice a faster boil "Karen" I almost lost my batch today - was not prepared for it to be done as soon as it was and when I did my quick look it was starting to climb the walls ! JUST in time = 3.5 Litres of the good stuff today :cool:

WOOHOO! I did my first boil since learning about placing the tanks in a water bath. The tanks roared all the way to the very end of their propane supply. I was thrilled. No noticeable BTU loss for the last hour or so. Great idea! Thanks!

[saphound]

Amazing isn't it? :cool:I guess you really can teach an old dog new tricks. I mean me, not you, lol. Did you notice any difference in the time it took, Karen? I did.

[Run Forest Run!]

Amazing isn't it? :cool:I guess you really can teach an old dog new tricks. I mean me, not you, lol. Did you notice any difference in the time it took, Karen? I did.

Well I suppose that because the boil didn't drop as much as it would have when nearing the end of a tank my time spent babysitting a dwindling boil was definitely reduced. I was really, really pleased. Pass the milkbones, I give this tip two paws up.

[saphound]

Quick question..just finishing a batch and the hydro reads 63 brix at 204 degrees. Tried twice to test at 211 but it cools too quick for me. I can't find the temp conversion chart, is that on here somewhere? It's probably a little heavy, but I like it a little heavy. I think Karen told me sugar will form at 67 brix or higher. I'd rather not have to can this syrup a second time. Do you think that reading is ok?

[jrm]

A little late to be answering your question, but this is the link I used for the conversions, as my hydrometer only came with the buame scale, not brix.

http://www.leaderevaporator.com/pdf_files/syrup-hydrometer.pdf

Janet

[ridgerunner394]

WOOHOO! I did my first boil since learning about placing the tanks in a water bath. The tanks roared all the way to the very end of their propane supply. I was thrilled. No noticeable BTU loss for the last hour or so. Great idea! Thanks!

I think I am approaching the end here, no sap today as it did not get below 0 C last night.. very sloppy in the bush now as well. Boiled most of my sap on hand (tank in a bath of course as it did frost up) and finished up with 4 litres today. Another 20 gal of sap to go then I suspect it will be over for another season :{(

[Run Forest Run!]

Ridgerunner are you sure? I'd bet you've got another two weeks of good sap weather ahead of you. Things are just getting going for us.

[saphound]

Thanks for the link, Janet. I ended up bottling it as is. But can someone verify that sugar forms at 67 brix or higher at 211*..thanks.

[ridgerunner394]

Ridgerunner are you sure? I'd bet you've got another two weeks of good sap weather ahead of you. Things are just getting going for us.

Unfortunately Karen, I am dependant on a good toboggan trail to get to my trees and then pull the buckets out (about 1.5km) when I get a couple of days of rain it turns my hillside into a mud slide.... so although I agree there is still some good potential ahead my days are numbered. No complaints though I am over my annual 4 gal and anything else is bonus for me :{)

Hopefully the -1 c and last nights -5 c here allows me to continue to collect. I still have close to 30+ gal of sap on hand so all is not lost!!! Every time I return to the bush I see more signs of the fast approaching spring, had a pair of blue birds on one of my nesting boxes on Saturday and Gobblers singing along the hardwood ridges every morning.11566

[Run Forest Run!]

I see more signs of the fast approaching spring, had a pair of blue birds on one of my nesting boxes on Saturday and Gobblers singing along the hardwood ridges every morning.11566

Hey me too! Had a pair of bluebirds eyeing up my nesting boxes and I could hear the turkeys in the forest. I also had an Eastern Phoebe scouting for a nesting area. The turkey vultures are back, and there were three Great Blue Herons and two Trumpeter Swans flying over the valley this morning. Spring has definitely sprung!

I'll cross my fingers for you that your toboggan run is usable for a little while longer.

[saphound]

Hey no fair! I think my turkeys must've migrated North..nary a gobble here yet.

[ridgerunner394]

Hey saphound they have been strutting and gobbling here on and off for around a week. I watched 6 Toms displaying (mostly for each other) along with 15 hens/jakes a couple of days ago! Shaping up to be a good season:{)

Karen - add one Kestrel to the list as well!

[Run Forest Run!]

Karen - add one Kestrel to the list as well!

Excellent. I love those. Their markings are so pretty.

One day we had 45 turkeys on our back lawn. I'm guessing saphound would have gone crazy!

[ridgerunner394]

thanks to my wife I have just discovered my new favorite home made ice cream --- "Maple Bacon Crunch" un f*#% believable - Is there anything bacon does not taste good with? She made a candied bacon bit (kind of like peanut brittle only bacon) then broken into tiny chunks and mixed into the maple ice cream.... wow sugar high may be up for a while tonight!

[Run Forest Run!]

thanks to my wife I have just discovered my new favorite home made ice cream --- "Maple Bacon Crunch" un f*#% believable - Is there anything bacon does not taste good with? She made a candied bacon bit (kind of like peanut brittle only bacon) then broken into tiny chunks and mixed into the maple ice cream.... wow sugar high may be up for a while tonight!

A recipe for that bacon brittle better be following soon from you. :o

[saphound]

Excellent. I love those. Their markings are so pretty.

One day we had 45 turkeys on our back lawn. I'm guessing saphound would have gone crazy!

So, what was your address again? Ha... Actually I used to have them in my yard like that for years..the population is way down in NY from where it was in the 80's and 90's. Several bad hatches and now some weird virus giving them head tumors is showing up. :-/

[saphound]

Well I just found out 63 brix at 204 degrees is too heavy..sugar forming today in all 7 jars from the last batch. Son of a gun..I'm going to have to re-bottle it all again, dang it. I'm getting some sap today even tho it hasn't been below freezing for 3 or 4 nights now...is that normal and good to use? Buds are still tight. :mad:

[Run Forest Run!]

So, what was your address again? Ha... Actually I used to have them in my yard like that for years..the population is way down in NY from where it was in the 80's and 90's. Several bad hatches and now some weird virus giving them head tumors is showing up. :-/

Ick. I hadn't heard about that so I googled it. Hopefully that doesn't become a massive problem.


Well I just found out 63 brix at 204 degrees is too heavy..sugar forming today in all 7 jars from the last batch. Son of a gun..I'm going to have to re-bottle it all again, dang it. I'm getting some sap today even tho it hasn't been below freezing for 3 or 4 nights now...is that normal and good to use? Buds are still tight. :mad:

That sap is just fine to use. When I tapped for the first time in 2012 there wasn't a single night below freezing. The sap still ran, but not much. That was a really bad year.

[saphound]

Thanks for the info, Karen..it's clear as can be and no foul odors..I'll have to go for it.