Small RO for the little guy

[Rangdale]

Built this simple little RO for $280 (although I already had the valve and gauge). It's able to get the sugar content to 7%-7.5% but doesn't seem to want to go any higher. I used residential 150gpd RO membranes so perhaps that's the reason? It takes a 5 gallon pail to 7% in about an hour or so. It doesn't seem to matter if I start with 1%, 2% or 3%, seems to take the same amount of time. This probably wouldn't work for someone who makes a ton, but since we only collect 20-30 gallons a day it works great. have only run about 80 gallons thru but so far so good. We burn propane so it will be a great time and money saver. Also, I have the concentrate recycling thru the system, running it straight thru one time only gets me to about 4.5%.



11159

[spud]

I think thats real cool for just $280.00. Once I get my fall tapping up and going with 200 taps I may have some questions for you.

Spud

[das fisch]

Mind if I ask where you purchased the filter housings? The ro housings I've seen for home use don't seem to have a outlet for permanent and concentrate, they seem to have just an outlet for permanent (drinking water in their case).
Also what pump is that?

[carpedium]

That looks very nice! Would you mind posting links or sources for the components you purchased?

[Waynehere]

I think you need to use a larger, higher pressure pump system. If you haven't seen Steve Childs videos yet, check them out. There are 3 of them about size.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BOO2L1RD2s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_fu2bPPwqQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YFmc2a50To

[Rangdale]

I purchased the filter housings and RO membranes from freshwatersystems.com and the pump is an Aquatec 8800 booster pump that's rated for 120psi that I bought from Amazon. The fittings and tubing I got at Home Depot as they were less money than at freshwatersystems and I had a gift card! I run it between 75-80psi which seems to give me the best results for my setup.

[SDdave]

Rangdale I have the same RO set up. I run mine at around 125 PSI get around 9 gph of raw sap through it. You shouldn't have to recycle your concentrate through, I never have and still get the same 7% ish result. I've had a couple of run thru's where I got higher then 8%. All in all however you choose it still is a fuel saver, mine paid for itself in the first year alone.

SDdave

[zimmermg]

I have the same system and run at 110psi and get to 8%. I do a single pass as well and get to this. I think if you ramp up the pressure you will get a higher concentrate percentage. The 150 gpd membranes are I believe capable of taking up to 125 psi. These are the instructions that I followed the system seems to work pretty good so far.

https://sites.google.com/site/mattatuckmadnessmaplesyrup/home/homemade-reverse-osmosis-system

[rocnron]

Thanks very much for the post

[Rangdale]

That's were I got my instructions as well. The gauge I had only goes to 100psi but I crank it right shut until it's down to a steady drip and I'm still only getting 4-5% with one pass yet can get it up to 6 to as much as 7.5 by recycling it thru. Perhaps sap temperature is playing a role as I have been starting with sap that is 34-36 degrees and it's about 38-40 by the time it's done. We haven't had a ton of sap yet so I haven't had a chance to tinker with it too much. But boy what a difference, making a 1/2 gallon of syrup with 7 gallons of sap was so much better!

[zimmermg]

Mine seems to do about the same volume at 5 gph as well. So in the end we are getting to the same place in regards to production and time. The only thing that i see different in my system and yours as far is setup is that i run the pressure gauge in between the water filter and the first membrane. I would think you would get the same reading on the pressure gauge as long as your are between the pump and the closing valve at the end but that is just thought. Not sure this would be of any help but thought i would share. Might save you some time in re-running sap through to the sap bucket if we can get this figured out.

Have you played with the pressure adjust on the pump? There is an allen screw that you can adjust it with.

[Rangdale]

I haven't messed with that yet so perhaps my first step would be to get a pressure gauge that went up to 125-150. I think I did read that if the sap temp is below 40 then it slows down substantially so perhaps that could be it as well? My first thought would be that I'm using residential membranes instead of "professional" but if other people are using the same then that cant be it.

[SDdave]

Colder sap will take longer to process, but I don't think it'll take away from the final sugar%. I checked your pic in the initial post, everything looks correctly plumbed. I think your next step would be to crank up the PSI on the pump. Next would be a quick check to see if you are passing sugar thru. (I think I check the permeate more often then the concentrate out of paranoria.)

I must confess we don't have the exact same configurations, I got the 100 gpd vs. 150 gpd membranes. So maybe need more PSI?

SDdave

[Rangdale]

Yeah, I check the permeate more often than the concentrate as well and it's always been zero. I know the refractometer is reading correctly as I get the amount of syrup the math tells me I should get. I will mess around with the pressure a little and see what happens (and hope I don't blow something!)

[SDdave]

Keep us posted. Hopefully a little more pressure will help.

SDdave

[bradley153]

Rangedale, what filter housings are you useing? I've looked all over their website and can't find the ones you used .

[Rangdale]

Thanks SDave, the higher pressure did the trick!! It's now 7.5-8% in one pass. Thanks for the tip!

The filter housings for the RO membranes are here: http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3999-membrane-housing-with-14-push-in-fittings-no-check.aspx

[liljohn]

I would really be interested in putting something like this together. Any chance of you posting a parts list?

[brass maple]

Liljohn
https://sites.google.com/site/mattatuckmadnessmaplesyrup/home/homemade-reverse-osmosis-system
follow this link. It has every thing you would need for a small and affordable one

[Rangdale]

For the housings and such I went to freshwatersystems.com. I used 3 RO housings: http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3999-membrane-housing-with-14-push-in-fittings-no-check.aspx
I used the 150gpd membranes: http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-6886-axeon-tfm-150-tfc-residential-ro-membrane-150-gpd.aspx
For the 5 micron water filter I used this housing: http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-651-pentek-10-slim-line-water-filter-housing-blackblue-no-pr.aspx but can't remember which 5 micron filter I used but it wasn't expensive. These were all the 1/4 OD fitting size. I also bought all the filter housing brackets from freshwatersystems.

The pump is an aquatec 8800 from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Aquatec-8800-water-booster-Transformer/dp/B00ENPZE5Y/ref=sr_1_1/191-2585401-0964558?ie=UTF8&qid=1427672655&sr=8-1&keywords=aquatec+8800


The fittings and tubing I bought at Home Depot as they were a little less expensive than freshwatersystems had them. I had the needle valve and gauge but both can be had at Home Depot or Lowes for not much $.

[bkeith]

For the housings and such I went to freshwatersystems.com. I used 3 RO housings: http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3999-membrane-housing-with-14-push-in-fittings-no-check.aspx

The pump is an aquatec 8800 from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Aquatec-8800-water-booster-Transformer/dp/B00ENPZE5Y/ref=sr_1_1/191-2585401-0964558?ie=UTF8&qid=1427672655&sr=8-1&keywords=aquatec+8800



Is that the only pump you're using? Or is that to boost the pressure so that the Procon pump doesn't starve?

[Rangdale]

That's the only pump I'm using.

[Clinkis]

Is that the only pump you're using? Or is that to boost the pressure so that the Procon pump doesn't starve?

You do not need a procon pump when using residencial membranes. A aquatech booster pump is all you use. Check out this link that was already posted.
https://sites.google.com/site/mattatuckmadnessmaplesyrup/home/homemade-reverse-osmosis-system

[liljohn]

Thanks for all the great info. I was wondering what the volume loss is on a system like this? If I have 100 gallons of 1.5%. What would be the final volume I have to boil after it passes through the system and ends at 7%? Also if I recycle it through multiple times do I run it continuous for 20 hours to process the 100 gallons? Thanks for any help. I am planning this for my 20-25 taps doing about 400 gallons of sap a year. Any advise is appreciated.

[Clinkis]

If you took 100 gallons of 1.5% to 7% then you would have about 22 gallons of concentrate left to boil. When I used this style of RO I would pass it through 2 times to get to around 8%. That said, you could also just recycle in the tank to accomplish the same thing. That's what I do with my new RO and works well.

[CharlieR]

I built one of these this year and it really saved me! I had trouble getting the processing rates but I ran 200 gals through it for 50 hrs continuously and the pressure never wavered. I was getting about 8% sugar from about 2.5%. In the end I opened up the needle and dropped it 5% but was able to get 4 gal/hr of concentrate. I just did a single pass with 3 150gpd membranes in series but may try recirculating next year and adding a 4th membrane!

[adk1]

That sounds great but that would be too slow of concentrate for me

[huxta]

Question, In a lot of threads about these RO systems, they refer to this link
https://sites.google.com/site/mattatuckmadnessmaplesyrup/home/homemade-reverse-osmosis-system
If you check the parts list...
https://sites.google.com/site/mattatuckmadnessmaplesyrup/parts-list-for-ro-system
You will see
150 gallon per day RO membrane (you will need four of these): $28.00 each
http://www.wateranywhere.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_29_30&products_id=10288
Price in the link is $65 not $28 as stated. The RO site says it was updated 02/15 so I cannot believe the price has jumped from $28 to $65 in 2 months.
Is that the correct membrane? Is there another source cheaper?

[vtmaplesyrup]

Those are the correct membranes, wow what a price jump I paid $28 each end of summer 2014. I built 4 -150 GPD membrane RO based on Bret's design. It worked well for me , 89 taps gravity 5/16 tubing , 10 buckets, processed 2-7 gallons of sap per hour depending on temp and concentrate level 5-9%. At 7-8% I could get 4-6 gallons per hour consistently, cut my boiling time by 3/4.

[CharlieR]

I purchased mine in Feb this year for $28 ea from Water Anywhere!! Wish I had purchased a few extra now!

[huxta]

That's what I was afraid of. Hopefully it's just a case of supply and demand and their inventory is just low right now. I did find a couple cheaper and assume they would work fine.

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-6886-axeon-tfm-150-tfc-residential-ro-membrane-150-gpd.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/Reverse-Osmosis-Membrane-DRINKING-FILTER/dp/B00M2I7ILC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1429545469&sr=8-2&keywords=150+gpd+ro+membrane

[hodorskib]

Mattatuck Madness Maple Syrup is my website and it was updated February of 2015 (parts list) and yes the price recently went from 28 dollars to 65 for the 150gpd membranes. I have updated the site with membranes from Amazon.com for 45 dollars each. However, these membranes are rated to 150psi instead of the others that were only rated to 125psi. Being able to run at a higher pressure will increase the amount you can process each hour and the membranes are of a higher quality. I am in the same boat since after three seasons I have to replace mine as well. I will keep an eye out and if I find any cheaper ones will post them.

[bahboil]

I am looking to put together this ro for next year and was wondering if I should go with 3 or 4 150 gpd membranes? Will having 4 process sap quicker? Thanks for all the info and postings

[hodorskib]

The first system I built was with 3 100gpd membranes and that was processing up to around 6% concentrate with about 110 gallons per day. When I upgraded to 4 housings I used 150gpd membranes and that allowed me to go to 8.0% concentrate and process up to 120 gallons per day. You can build it with three and if needed add the fourth later (very easy).

[maplestudent]

this looks like something I need to build for next year. my question is, where do you folks place this unit - does it need to be in a location that is freeze-proof?

[Rangdale]

I just ran mine in my basement and stored the sap and concentrate out in the snow. I just did a 5 gallon bucket at a time and just kept switching them out. The sap/concentrate was still plenty cold by the end. I may try to do a 40 gallon container next year and just put a frozen milk jug of water in it to keep the concentrate cold while processing.

[hodorskib]

Ideally you want it in a heated space and then you can move the concentrate outside or somewhere colder. The system runs much better with sap that is above 40 degrees. I have mine in my garage which is under the house and stays around 50-55 degrees. My concentrate tank is strapped to a hand truck and I just wheel it outside to keep cold.

[802tazz]

has someone or can u put a heat in the line some were to pre heat sap to help flow?

[bahboil]

Thanks for info. Now if I want to process 20 gph to 6 or 7%, do you know what size membranes I'd have to go with

[roads-end]

I was looking at fresh water system stuff they had a low pressure commercial ro membrane at 2.5" x20" that runs at 45-85psi would some thing like that work

[hodorskib]

I'm not sure if the aquatech pump would be able to produce enough flow for larger membranes. From what I found it will do around 1000 gallons per day with little or no back pressure. You may need to go with a larger pump like a procon and I am not familiar enough with them.

[802tazz]

what is the #membrane I need ?I got AMI M-T1812A150 is that the right one I need?

[bahboil]

If I was to go with the aquatec 8800 with a 850 gpd membrane, what do you think my gph of sap would be as I understand sap goes through slower than water?

[hodorskib]

AMI M-T1812A150 these were the membranes I used over the past two years and they worked fine. I was shocked when I saw the price jump from 28 dollars to 65 recently though. The only downfall is that they are rated to 125psi - I will be going with Axeon membranes for next year that can run up to 150psi:
http://www.amazon.com/Axeon-Polyamide-Composite-Drinking-Membrane/dp/B005L4ZOMY/ref=sr_1_2?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1429713457&sr=1-2&keywords=150gpd+membrane they are 45 dollars each from Amazon.com

As for running the aquatech with an 850gpd membrane I really don't know what to expect since I have never run larger than 150gpd standard size membranes. You may want to change the 1/4" tubing to 3/8" tubing to help with the flow.

[DaveB]

If I was to go with the aquatec 8800 with a 850 gpd membrane, what do you think my gph of sap would be as I understand sap goes through slower than water?

I have a similar question - how many GPH of concentrate could be expected? I'm thinking that if it processes 850 gallons a day, that's 35 GPH, but I know that is not concentrate.

Am I correct in thinking that an Aquatec pump could be used with this membrane? It looks like they only require 100psi:

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-6846-axeon-hf4-2540-850-gpd-ro-membrane-element.aspx

and the Aquatec supplies 125psi.

I'm looking to build a system myself before next spring, at least to increase the sugar content I'm boiling and I like the cost effectiveness of building a smaller system.

[802tazz]

the aim m- t1812a150 membrane are flait sheet membrane not tfc membrane what people are using in here?

[802tazz]

can we use 200gpd membranes?

[hodorskib]

I think using 200gpd membranes would work fine but not sure if they are worth the additional costs. I was able to process up to 120 gallons per day with 4 150gpd membranes going from 1.5% sap to 8%concentrate. You can process more if you want to go to a 4 or 5% concentrate. These systems are perfect for the backyard operations with less than 100 taps. Beyond that you might want to look at a bigger system. As for the aquatech pumps there is a small set screw on the front of the pump that will allow you to adjust the pressure - I have run mine up to 150psi. The amount of flow listed on the specs sheet refers to it running with no back pressure - once you start adding that you will dramatically reduce the amount it will process per hour. It is a balance the higher concentrate the less you can process. If you just want to take out 50% of the water (basically doubling your original % sugar - going from 2% to 4%) you can expect to process 8-10 gallons per hour. 4% doesn't sound like much but remember that is cutting everything in half, boiling and fuel consumption which alone is huge. Hope this helps.

[802tazz]

the aim m-t1812a150 membranes are still $28 just got some

[liljohn]

@hodorskib, do you run the ro in series or parallel? Also do you recirculate the sap? Just wondering what is the most efficient way to get 8%. Thanks.

[hodorskib]

Glad you found them on Amazon.com for 28 dollars - funny the vendor is Wateranywhere.com on Amazon but if you go to their website they are listed for 65 dollars. You can't beat the price and I found them to hold up just fine for 2-3 years. Since I leave around 5:30 in the morning for work and don't get home until around 4-5PM as well as enjoy sleeping at night I needed to set it up for a single pass with little or no checking on. It can run throughout the night or while I am at work and when it runs out of sap it is done. I sometimes use a simple timer (like you would use for a lamp or Christmas Lights) and estimate when it will be finished however, the aquatech pump is designed to run dry without damage - although I try not to do that for any length of time. I have taken my 4 membranes and run them in parallel with two in each line at a 1:1 concentrate to permeate ratio and then ran it through again. With 100 gallons it took the same amount of time to run it through twice as it did to leave it in series and run it once. I have tried to recirculate and again with a 1:1 ratio it took about the same amount of time to process 100 gallons. The advantage of recirculating or running in parallel you are running at lower concentrate 1:1 so your membranes will not get fouled as often and most likely get more years out of them. For me it is simple and easy to just do a single pass and if I get 2-3 years out of a set of membranes it is well worth the investment since I am saving 75% on my fuel costs and my boiling time.