new maple law,,,,want to loose your house for misslabeling syrup by mistake?

[Parker]

I just got a copy of the new maple law rsa 429:13-28......im interested in putting together a group of people who after the season will work to find a legislator to introduce a bill to change the penalty section of the new law to not include "civil forfiture". From the way i read the law ,most of which i support, if you are found guilty of a violation (such as collection sap in a non food grade container like a tote or putting syrup in a non tamperproof container like a mason jar or having your grade stickers not match the grade in your syrup jug-ever had syrup darken over time in a jug?) you could be guilty of a misdermeanor, fined up to $1000 by the dept of ag, and not more than $5000 a day for each day of noncompliance..for EACH violation (would each jug of non compliant syrup be a seprate violation?..and if you dont have the money to pay the govt. they Can take your property through "civil forfiture". Im all for safe clean syrup but this is a littel much......so if you collect you sap in a wallmart tote..put that syrup in a mason jar label it as grade a when its too dark and sell it to a person that wants it your a felon? And its going to cost how much if the dept. Of ag catches you?......PLEASE READ THE LAW!!! Im not a lawyer but looked up the the meaning of the terms in blacks law dictionary.
Im interested in everyons input on this. Thanks, Parker

[Marc Duclos]

I cant speak to the merits of this as you state it, but I was at Bascoms seminar in November. The guy from leader was going off on stuff like that. Talk about labeling the color not the taste. He directed the gullible to wean his clientele with the RO to not let them on to how much taste is missing in the syrup. How did he say it I am paraphrasing/RO the sap one year 10 then move up to 12 to 14 then now that your costumers don't know what syrup taste like you can mash it to the max.

And this is the guy that says no more soldered pans and plastic buckets.
Elections has consequences. Pepole get what they asked for then say that's not what I meant.

[CampHamp]

Do you have a link to the new laws? The one on the state site didn't say anything about tamper proof containers or collecting container requirements.

[red maples]

what? not sure what you meant Marc....

Parker do you have a link to this section that we can read it on line. I have net read it but I do believe that this law is for adulterated syrup and the mislabeling a corn or cane sugar based syrup as pure maple syrup, as well as claiming a product have maple and doesn't (McD's vs the state of Vermont for maple oatmeal) this was voted into law after they found that guy from down south who was selling fake syrup on Ebay or craig's list and calling it 100% Pure Vermont maple syrup. they are not going to fine you for calling Amber a dark or vise versa.

I do see people that collect sap using the orange homer buckets. but they are not selling it. If you are selling it then you can do what ever the heck you want. As we all know you can't use lead sodered galvanized bucket, galvanized barrels and honestly probably not anything gavanized for that matter. If you are intending to collect sap in old antifreeze or hydrolic fluid buckets and boiling it down and selling it you should be not only be fined and your land taken away you should be drawn and quartered and your pieces put on the 4 corners of your state as a warning. If you are selling sap and or syrup you should be using food grade containers for sap and syrup...period. I have to agree with that one. As far as the mason jars go that one I don't know. I don't personally don't use them anyway but I do use cream jars like most of us do that don't have a tamper proof cap. You can always buy the plastic shrink bands to seal the jars which I have considered doing anyway. and you can use food grade plastic buckets they are cheap money from lowes.

a last note if you are doing things the correct way, you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Again I have not read this law so what I type here may only be partially correct and the law maybe written very generally.

[red maples]

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/NHTOC/NHTOC-XL-429.htm

Here is the link. It has all the laws for honey and maple syrup. I do believe my statements in the previous post are correct.

I believe a person should be compliant with these rules. these punishments listed are also the highest limits a person can be fined. as the term"not to exceed" are used in front of the dollar amounts. you won't be fined if your syrup is mis-graded you may be forced to pull your product from a store shelf and relabel it or even repackage it. Thats about it. Our Ag. dept is here to help us not discourage us.

I may have missed it but I honestly don't see anything about tamper proof packaging and non food grade containers? maybe this might be the old version and not the new one?

[Dill]

I mention it at the next farm bureau meeting. I haven't seen the copy of law yet either.

[SSFLLC]

My wife is going to print it at work and review it. She works for a attorney so knows the meaning of a lot of what is said. Will get back to you on this tomorrow when she gets home

[BreezyHill]

Parker, From my dealings with Ag & Markets of NY State, FDA, and Dept of Homeland Security (DHS). The law has to be written in this manner to get full compliance with the spirit of the law. There are and will be those that will not produce Maple Syrup in a manor that is going to be safe and as soon as their operation is viewed in the news and on multi media that will cost every producer in the world future sales and loads of money to bring consumers back to our product.

I own a feed mill. It is unlawful to not tag ( label your product) yet in my area there are still a couple of places that don't label the bags of feed, do not follow the law of not reusing bags; that is designed to stop the spread of diseases like Johnes, BVD, IBR, PI3, hoof in mouth, mad cow, etc.

One such producer was finally stopped after he was found to have rats and pigeons in grain stores that were in open barns. He was sited and given 3 months to cover the grain and remove the rodents, and he did nothing. He only stopped after all his grain was confiscated and removed at tax payers expense.

Fines don't stop people that are making way past the amounts of the fines. IE: the organic farmer that is having noncertified grains come into his place at $350 per ton in 34 ton loads and is selling it for $900 as organic. The fine was $10,000 after he was caught unable to account for over 400 tons of productthe previous year. The Fine was less than 5% of the profit he made.

I am fairly certain that any tote can be used when a food grade liner, top, and seal are installed and used correctly.

It is rather frustrating as a producer to see others who are using sub standard containers that cause real life medical issues and sell their product for as much and often less than I can when I follow all proticals that I am aware of to the letter and to the intent of the law or realistic production standards where laws are not.

I would suggest reading the law carefully as there is a clause in NY law that allows for: the reuse of glass container after sanitation and the use of tamper evident closures" A mason jar with a new seal will pass this criteria.

I totally understand your frustration and dismay; but please do realize that it is for the betterment of our industry to become close to the standards that every other food grade facility in our nation has to comply with.

I can tell you of a women that has zink poisoning and is unable to have a functional life for the last 5-7 years as she appears to have a muscular disease that makes it so she is unable to walk, or do many every day tasks due to muscle weakness and inability to control her muscles. This is why galvanized containers are not food grade safe...yet notice the number of them along the side of the road.

Yes the temperatures we manufacture at does kill most contaminates and filtering removes many things. But consider this: How many costumers would stop buying our products if they saw what comes out of sap lines that are not washed and sanitized? And for that manor what comes out of those that are washed and sanitized. I wash mine and have seen some pretty nasty stuff in the sap filter this season.

We must also realize that Bio Terrorism is a real threat. Our road side collection tanks that are open to the public are a real threat; that will be addressed at some point in time.

In the feed industry we are always on the look out for suspicious activity around mills and farms. I do not believe that it is good to spread the things that we have to watch for to keep our animal feeds safe as it can be read by the wrong people and used against our country and others by terrorists, but it is very easy for one person to contaminate your, mine, and anybody else's product and have a devastating affect on our industry.

Our industry has come along way from when my family first started making syrup in 1971,but we are far behind nearly every other food manufactures requirements.

I will agree that some of it is over the top but In My Opinion we have to start to protect ourselves from the public and laws like this will do more to protect us than to harm us.

Thanks for bring this up

Ben

[red maples]

thinking about it more. put it this way.

You work hard to make syrup we all know how much it costs and the amount of work that goes into it.

when you have a person that knowingly sells syrup with alternative sweeteners in it sugar, corn syrup etc. maple flavorings and sell it as 100% pure maple syrup. You want them to get the full penalty. Correct?

Now when you have someone that has say mistakenly (using the new grading system) labeled a container golden instead of Amber or maybe your kids were helping you label containers didn't put the right one on. what ever. they aren't going to fine you $5000 and take away your farm. thats not how its written. if indeed the intent was to sell very Dark syrup as Golden then yes you might have a problem and you might get a fine. but again its up to the courts to decide if it was intentional. and "knowingly" and "intentional" are the key words here.


besides that, look any law there is a maximum and minimum sentence to just about everything.

So honestly I don't have a problem with it.

[Russell Lampron]

I just read the sources in the penalty section and found that this has been law since 1992. The fines are pretty severe for a small producer but minimal for a large one.

[white mt]

At the end of the day I feel government is chipping away at your freedoms What could seem small to some at the time adds up big in time Over time . If you sell bad product it will show in the long run . We don't need gov to regulate us to death Let's take this conversation up in ten years and see how much they have added to your regulations Good luck we're going to need it .

[Parker]

From how i read the law it affects everyone, from ten taps to 100000 taps the same.in the definitions section a commwrcial sugarmaker is "a person who collects or purchases maple sap for maple production and sale"Like i said i suppourt most of the law,,,just not the civil forfiture part..i see no section of these new laws where there is a schedual of fines for doing certin things,,,,just a blanket if you have a violation these are the fine limits....
I understand your arguments for promoting clean syrup, public health, and positive image for the industry.......but.......thats (imho) too much power to give the dept. Of ag....
I have a hard time accepting that "in order to meet the criteria of the law civil forfiture had to be included",,,we the people make the laws if we choose and i think the way the law is written is very broad and sweeping
I am a littel baffeled more people are not shocked by this....

[white mt]

Let's review for me I make a farly small amount of syrup in the back yard and in the course of the year I'm contacted d by two federal agency one by phone one by letter of e mail and a visit by the nh ag dept ,I hope I'm ok haha .Sometimes I think all this busy work adds up to a job for some one kind of create a work Deal . I'm reminded of the time I spent helping out in a homeless shelter after watching for a wile I came to the conclusion that most of these folks just need a job to get going but no thay spent most of their time sitting and waiting by the phone becuse someone in gov was goIng to call them . The point is they had no time to look for a job becuse They were someone's job. To much gov boys good luck.

[Marc Duclos]

I make maple syrup because it pleases me. Not to please you. The topic question was I want to find a legislator to do something about some law. I vote when the poles are open and if I want to find a legislator all I have to do is remember ho I voted for that handles this kind of thing and pick up the phone or send a message. I can see wear some are spending $ 100.00 bucks for every gallon of syrup they make.

[BlueberryHill]

From how i read the law it affects everyone, from ten taps to 100000 taps the same.in the definitions section a commwrcial sugarmaker is "a person who collects or purchases maple sap for maple production and sale"Like i said i suppourt most of the law,,,just not the civil forfiture part..i see no section of these new laws where there is a schedual of fines for doing certin things,,,,just a blanket if you have a violation these are the fine limits....
I understand your arguments for promoting clean syrup, public health, and positive image for the industry.......but.......thats (imho) too much power to give the dept. Of ag....
I have a hard time accepting that "in order to meet the criteria of the law civil forfiture had to be included",,,we the people make the laws if we choose and i think the way the law is written is very broad and sweeping
I am a littel baffeled more people are not shocked by this.... Yup, you got it. Let me know if you ever run for office, you got my vote.

[Ragged View]

How about if you label your product "Mple Sirup"? Are you still subject to the RSA?

[Sweet Maple Trees]

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/NHTOC/NHTOC-XL-429.htm

Here is the link. It has all the laws for honey and maple syrup. I do believe my statements in the previous post are correct.

I believe a person should be compliant with these rules. these punishments listed are also the highest limits a person can be fined. as the term"not to exceed" are used in front of the dollar amounts. you won't be fined if your syrup is mis-graded you may be forced to pull your product from a store shelf and relabel it or even repackage it. Thats about it. Our Ag. dept is here to help us not discourage us.

I may have missed it but I honestly don't see anything about tamper proof packaging and non food grade containers? maybe this might be the old version and not the new one?

http://www.agriculture.nh.gov/publications-forms/documents/maple-rules-adopted.pdf



This link will get you a lot closer to knowing what is what. If a person could find an older "NH Quality Control Maple Syrup Manual" you could essentially be more knowledgeable on what NH maple laws are all about(link will provide same but updated laws over what the manual has that was published back in the early 90's). Parker is talking about but something that may have slid into the laws at the rulemaking process which producers could have attend or supplied written statement while it was being considered by the Dept. of Ag. The color descriptors have changed due to the new compliance as to what IMSI had proposed to the Feds.
Bascom's used to and still might carry the NH manual? definitely worth the $6 for the cost of the 80-90 page booklet.

One other one that has been on the books for about 8+ years is on your labeling. It must state packed or produced which kinda states that if you packed it you could have produced it or bought syrup and put in the container to resell yourself. and produced means that you are the one that made the syrup and have not purchased "bulk" syrup and bottled it to resell.
I see quite a few that are not in compliance with that/but maybe that law has changed since first adopted? Check with the Dept of Ag on it to be sure your in compliance on that law.

[Marc Duclos]

I cant speak to the merits of this as you state it, but I was at Bascoms seminar in November. The guy from leader was going off on stuff like that. Talk about labeling the color not the taste. He directed the gullible to wean his clientele with the RO to not let them on to how much taste is missing in the syrup. How did he say it I am paraphrasing/RO the sap one year 10 then move up to 12 to 14 then now that your costumers don't know what syrup taste like you can mash it to the max.

And this is the guy that says no more soldered pans and plastic buckets.
Elections has consequences. Pepole get what they asked for then say that's not what I meant.

I am not using an ro. Why! cant afford it. I have been boiling prity much every day for the last two weeks give or take. I have to have 250 gallons of sap in the head tank to fire up the 4x12. I have I have an unknown amount of taps. More sugars than reds but I do have reds on the pipeline. When I see that the little bit of vacuum I have attend up to know on my sixth year is going to send to the slapped up shack 20 to 30 gallons an hr. I go for it. I keep the syrup pan 1/2 to 3/4 deep all the time manually. Why cant afford to mess around with some float right now.

I brought 25 gallons of what I made last week to Bascoms. I wanted to know what my ling eyes were tasting. I have been making Grade A Dark robust. One of the five gallons was Strong dark. I asked and they told me if the taste was off I was not going to get the price from them. When the taster sipped the syrup from all five 5 gallon drums he pointed to one of them and said that he would like to take one of them home. He instantly said right out straight your not using an ro are you. Nope. I use the hydrometer all the time. The temp changes all day long.

[Ridgeland Farm]

If the whole labeling issue is true it wont be long till it revised. Color is personal interpretation and can vary in the same town. the temporary grade sets we have now are not the best to be used anyways. Half the time the colors aren't even close. I have had many times that the color of the syrup is off from the grade set. Im not talking about being lighter or darker but a completely different shade. Its like comparing red and maroon. you can have lighter and darker of each color. So the whole grade label issue wont hold up if anyone ever gets pinched by an inspector.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Syrup really needs to be graded more by flavor than color. Too much emphasis is put on color, it should be more on the flavor of what is in the bottle, not the color.

[red maples]

as for the label. I just have a generic "packed by" right on the info label, as that was what I was told was the best thing to have on there.

agreed on the color problems. My darker syrup has a red hue as alot do and the Dark/robust in the temp grade kits is a solid brown. So you have to kinda do your best when you get close to upper edge of grading. Sometimes you have dark that tastes medium/amber and dark that tastes dark, but honestly there is such a color difference in the Dark/robust Grade the flavor can vary alot from the lighter side to the darker side of that grade which can be an issue for some people. I have a feeling there is gonna be a TON dark/ robust on the market now. Which is maybe what the goal was, I don't know.

[Russell Lampron]

I have a feeling there is gonna be a TON dark/ robust on the market now. Which is maybe what the goal was, I don't know.

I may be in the market for some of that dark or very dark syrup. I just made 12 1/2 gallons more of the golden.