Early review of 2x6 forced air arch by bill mason with smokey lake pans

[maplemoonsugarhouse]

hey guys
hope this finds you all well. thought i would post a very early review of my new arch for those of you (like me 6 mos ago) were struggling with increasing efficiency will trying to contain costs. just did my first boil to sweeten the pans on my 2x6 forced air arch by bill mason with high efficiency raised flu pans by smoky lake. i had a 18x60 rig last year but was looking for a rig that could handle more taps with increased efficiency. i looked at the air tight rigs from the big manufacturers but with costs approaching $10,000 for a dual blower rig...this was out of my price point. bill mason in porter, maine built me a 2x6 arch with air over and under the fire via dual blowers controlled via rheostat. smokey lake built a 2x4 flue pain and a 2x2 syrup pan for me with 11, 7.5 inch raised flues, 20 inch wall height and dual floats. according to smoky lake this pan set should do in the 40-45 gallon/hr range. sap flow has been horrible here in seacoast massachusetts so i have not had enough sap to boil for real to see how accurate these numbers are. forced air system works amazing with air coming up through the bricks of the firebox floor as well as above the fire from nozzles all around the firebox door (i believe this is based on 802 maples design but not sure exactly). able to load wood with blowers running with no back draft of smoke. while this is a very early review i am very pleased so far with this rig and it was significantly cheaper than the big manufacturer options (granted the arch isn't as fancy looking). hopefully this will help if you are in the market for more capacity and efficiency but have been struggling with the costs of these things. have a good season everyone. cheers
frank

[killingworthmaple]

I have the same pans on a 802 2x6 arch I think your gonna like how it boils. Are the big guys really asking 10,000 for a 2x6 arch or the whole evaporator? Your pans look slightly different than mine can you post more pictures of the pans and plumbing, I'm interested in what was upgraded since I bought mine pans thanks?

Nathan

[Waynehere]

Nathan, what kind of boil rate have you been getting then? I was looking to upgrade my homemade pans to Smokey maybe next year.

[maple marc]

At a certain price point on the boiler, aren't you better off putting money into RO?

[sams64]

I'm over here in Rowley and flow surely has been a bit slow. Rob ably a good thing for me as I still have some repairs to complete on my home built arch. If you want to show it off I would love to come over and watch a professional rig in action.

Sam

[eagle lake sugar]

Nice looking rig, that should work well for you.

[killingworthmaple]

I get about 40-45 gallons an hour if I push it hard I can get 50. The sap is really dancing in the rear pan. I can text you some video clips of the pans boiling if you are interested.

Nathan
860-604-8115

[WestbrookSugarShed]

how much did this set up end up costing you as compared to the alternatives

[bairdswift]

I hope you took the plastic off the stack before you lit the Fire. I learned the hard way. Hard to get off when it's cold and really hard once you put a fire behind it.

[nymapleguy607]

You will like that arch and pan combo. Your setup is pretty close to my Leader setup, though you might have another flue. The beauty of the Air over and under arch is they give you the freedom to either gasify to an extent or go full blown forced draft, all depending on what you want to do. I have ran my arch firing every 15 minutes to firing every 6 minutes. You should average about 45 GPH including shut down and start up, once you are boiling the gph increases pretty good. This year I added a Steamaway and now we are boiling about 70-75gph.

[motowbrowne]

You will like that arch and pan combo. Your setup is pretty close to my Leader setup, though you might have another flue. The beauty of the Air over and under arch is they give you the freedom to either gasify to an extent or go full blown forced draft, all depending on what you want to do. I have ran my arch firing every 15 minutes to firing every 6 minutes. You should average about 45 GPH including shut down and start up, once you are boiling the gph increases pretty good. This year I added a Steamaway and now we are boiling about 70-75gph.

Wow, that thing looks like a space-ship!! 75 gph out of a 2x6 is very impressive. I wonder how the ounces of syrup produced vs. pounds of wood burned with a rig like that compares to something without forced draft or a steamaway.

[maplemoonsugarhouse]

hey guys
sorry for the delay...responsible adulthood getting in the way again. thanks for the interest in this post.

nathan: will try and take few pics tomorrow to show the updated plumbing
sams64: it would be my please to have you over when we are boiling. i only know one other sugarmaker in the area and would be good to meet another kindred spirit. send me a PM and lets coordinate a time
maplemarc: your absolutely right that an RO is probably the best place to spend money...i am a little old school and prefer to trick out the rig then deal with membranes etc

in terms of cost of the whole setup....pan set was in the $3500 range. smokey lake advertises their prices...i will touch base will bill mason to make sure he is ok with me posting his costs for the arch but it was significantly less than the panset (came with insulation and gasket but no brick)

cheers
frank

[maplemoonsugarhouse]

nymapleguy607
since this is my first year with auf/aof...when you said "give you the freedom to either gasify to an extent or go full blown forced draft" can you talk a little more about this. do you have one or the other based on how fast the fans are running or is this based on how you are firing it? is there an advantage of one vs the other ( i assume its all about wood efficiency). still learning how to get the most out of this rig...any thoughts would be appreciated.

[nymapleguy607]

When I was talking to people before I built mine I was told basically the under fire air is like your gas pedal. If I want to gasify I will run with my back AOF and front AOF fully open. I then open the AUF about 1/2". By monitoring the stack temp I can adjust the AUF to keep a steady stack temp. Once the stack temp stops responding to increasing the AUF its time to reload. GPH is less when you fire this way but you stretch out the time in between loading the arch. This year I am using a different approach I still run with the AOF fully open but after firing I open the AUF half way, the stack temp jumps quite a bit higher, this year has been in the 1100 range after about 3-4 minutes I open the AUF the rest of the way and burn for another 3-4 minutes. I'm doing it this way so I boil the flue pan harder, which intern makes the steamaway more efficient. The last time boiling doing this method I boiled off 400 gallons of sap and made about 8 gallons of syrup in 5.5 hours which equates to 72 GPH. So the biggest thing to remember and take away is the AUF controls the burn rate closed down and monitored is slower and wide open is faster.

[GeneralStark]

That's a nice looking hobby rig and sounds like a reasonable price. But, comparing it to something like a vortex, force 5, or intens o fire (if that's what you mean by rigs made by "big manufacturers") isn't totally accurate. An airtight door and AOF from the door and AUF is not like any of these other rigs. They have several other design features it seems like yours does not include. Sure they are more expensive, but there are some major advantages to purchasing one of these machines. The support provided is just one thing to consider...

[nymapleguy607]

That's a nice looking hobby rig and sounds like a reasonable price. But, comparing it to something like a vortex, force 5, or intens o fire (if that's what you mean by rigs made by "big manufacturers") isn't totally accurate. An airtight door and AOF from the door and AUF is not like any of these other rigs. They have several other design features it seems like yours does not include. Sure they are more expensive, but there are some major advantages to purchasing one of these machines. The support provided is just one thing to consider...

Ouch! That feels like a little bit of a low blow. I do agree that we probably don't have all the feature of a factory built high efficiency arch, but seeing how no manufacture will build one that size what option do we have. Lets be honest when burning wood the real key is the AOF, everyone has their own way of doing it but at the end of the day it comes down to getting more air into the firebox in a controlled manner to complete combustion.

[GeneralStark]

Sorry, didn't mean any "low blow". The OP was comparing his new rig to "big manufacturers" rigs and I'm not sure that is a fair comparison is all I am saying.

[motowbrowne]

Sorry, didn't mean any "low blow". The OP was comparing his new rig to "big manufacturers" rigs and I'm not sure that is a fair comparison is all I am saying.

Yeah, without knowing much about the OP's rig, and without elaborating on these differences you speak of, you kinda just sound like someone who paid too much for an intense-o-fire and now has to rationalize it. The guy just made a new arch and got new pans, let's all be happy for him.

[GeneralStark]

Yeah, without knowing much about the OP's rig, and without elaborating on these differences you speak of, you kinda just sound like someone who paid too much for an intense-o-fire and now has to rationalize it. The guy just made a new arch and got new pans, let's all be happy for him.

He didn't actually make a new arch...

[palmer4th]

Did you mean he did not design a new kind of arch? Because bill makes new arches everyday. Sounds like you got a very nice setup! I looked at the same thing but in a 2x8.

[GeneralStark]

What I mean is that the OP of this thread did not make a new arch, Bill Mason did. Motowbrowne's comment in post 18 that "the guy just made a new arch and bought new pans" suggests he thinks the OP built the arch.

[motowbrowne]

He didn't actually make a new arch...


What I mean is that the OP of this thread did not make a new arch, Bill Mason did. Motowbrowne's comment in post 18 that "the guy just made a new arch and bought new pans" suggests he thinks the OP built the arch.

Yes, you're right. I thought he had a part in building it. I guess he just commissioned the build. My bad. Any updates on what makes an intense-o-fire better than this one by Bill Mason?

[BHMC]

To the OP.. Did you find out from Bill if you could post the price of the arch?

[palmer4th]

also wondering about the cost

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

the big guys dont make a "gasification" 2x6 because the efficiency isnt there, yes our home made rigs do gasifi but not like the manufacturers because you need the air space inside the arch before the flu pan to get the gases all stirred around thats why you dont see any gasifi rig from the manufac until 2.5x8 I believe. A 2x6 just doesnt have that room. Thats why I stretched my rig 2' and added a heat transfer box to pre heat the AOF. You need around 1200deg F for gasification to happen. I only installed one pid this year at rear of flu before heat chamber and i was at 580C.

A New York sugar maker came over early in the week he been sugaring for a lot of years and said he has never seen a 2x6 boil as hard as mine!

the guys out there say 50GPH on a 2x6 I want to see a flow meter hooked to your inlet of sap. Maybe im not smart enough but even with me pulling 6GPH of syrup approx off my rig im not seeing those numbers but my unit as a 3' flue.

[killingworthmaple]

I don't no if my 2x6 is "gasifying" or not but when it's running 950-1000 stack temp, it will evaporates 45 an hour all day long and will do 50 if I keep the temps over 975 with 30+ min. load times. I have checked it over and over again. I will say the pans are 28 inches wide instead of 24 and I have 13 flues. However the arch was only designed for 24in pans. I don't take any credit for this setup just want to say that the designs of the arch and pans are wonderful. And it is a wonder to behold when it's boiling.

Nathan

[Dill]

So Bill is still making larger arches? Is he still doing bigger evaps too? His site now just shows the hobby stuff.

[Forrest hunters]

I will vouch for the Smoky Lake Silver Plate Arch with drop flue pans. I had been boiling on a half pint with full pint pan on it until this year. I purchased the Silver Plate addition arch from Smoky Lake which comes with stainless steel sides, air tight door, blower, 4' flue pan with 10 7" flues, 2' finishing pan, same side reverse, stainless 10" - 12' stack, casters, insulated back(only need to insulate loading area with blanket and brick. Now to the good stuff. I boiled 7 times for a total time of 31.25 hours this year and evaporated 1580 gallons and finished 30.875 gallons. 1580/31.25= 50.5GPH. this is with start up and shut down. Boil times = 2 @ 2 hours, 1@ 2.5 hours,1@4, 1@5, 1@7.5 and 1@8.5hours. I can say that many hours I was boiling off 2 30 gallon drums and hour, this was all boiling outside with no shield from wind or anything.

I was even able to use some larger wood to fire with. I used large fire pit type wood and would put one layer in on the coals and then pack it full with wrist size wood. Burned everything from black cheery, to pine, to sassafras, poplar and others.

[Lano75]

Forrest hunters I have the exact same set up and also boiled out side and I will agree with your numbers. I actually slowed my boil down just because this was my first year and I did not want to have a mishap. I ran my back pan at 2" and my front at 2" to be conservative and still would see 40gph.

[JADavis]

I have the Silverplate evaporator from smoky lake too. mine has hoods and the smoky lake preheater. At first I felt weird saying it out loud, but we consistently get 75gph out of it, when I really load it tight it gets 85gph though im sure the fuel efficiency goes down a bit. The arch makes a lot of heat, it has an enormous firebox. It is a very heavyweight unit and I love it.

Mine is a drop flue, I bought the pans and arch separate. The pans were right around $2900 I think. Smoky Lake wasn't producing arches at the time that I bought the pans, but I picked up the arch early spring of this year. I believe the arch was in the $3500 range. Best money I ever spent.

Aside from the superb equipment I have been very pleased with Jim's service. When I have a question all I do is call or drop him an email. He is quick to respond and always has plenty of clear pictures to help me through anything. Awesome company overall, my brothers and I will probably never buy maple equipment elsewhere .

[Forrest hunters]

JADavis. That is great to hear and I feel the same way. I will be moving my equipment into a poll barn hopefully this summer and will need hoods for mine. I do not want a cupola so I am just going to do a hood with preheater. I heard Jim has someone about an hour north of him getting the GPH you are. Can wait to get 25-50% more per hour on the same amount of wood by just adding a hood.

Where are you in MI?

[JADavis]

Forest Hunters, I live in Atlanta, MI but we make syrup on the old farm where my oldest brother still lives which is abut 45 minutes north.

I should also add that after a petty good season with the evaporator that it cleaned up really well, the paint did not burn off one bit anywhere, and the sides a not warped. I did install a full 2 inches of ceramic insulation behind the brick.

You will love the hoods. I had some Amish built hoods on the old rig and the Smoky lake hoods are many times nicer. They are sturdy and welded, not slam jointed. We have a very strong boil going in the pans within 7 minutes of light up.

[Forrest hunters]

JADAVIS I did do 2 layers of 1" 2600 degree blanket behind my full bricks too. Bricks very lightly cemented in as I was outside and will be moving it inside once the stale sap eats all the sugar up. Have it stretch wrapped full of old sap right now. Been that way for 2 weeks now and will either next week or the following week drain and power wash. I usually leave sap in 3 week minimum and prefer 4 weeks. Glad to hear you like the hoods. Jim's stuff is top notch. Can't wait to get it in place next year With a new hood.

[mapledavefarm]

I have the Silverplate evaporator from smoky lake too. mine has hoods and the smoky lake preheater. At first I felt weird saying it out loud, but we consistently get 75gph out of it, when I really load it tight it gets 85gph though im sure the fuel efficiency goes down a bit.

Come on man!!!! 85 gph on a 2x6???? Lol

[Moser's Maple]

This sounds like maybe there should be a 2x6 boil off in the future. either at maplerama again, or at The Lake Erie Maple Expo. try to get all the manufacturers to participate.