Guzzler Issue

[wildlifewarrior]

We got our brand new DC guzzler hooked up to our 75 taps. We turned the pump on, and left it for an hour to develop vacuum, we went back and the sap in the laterals was sorta sloshing back and forth but didn't seem to be moving. We pulled a tap at the closest tree to the pump and there wasn't any vacuum to speak of when we held our thumb over the tap. After work I am going over to check the diaphragm. We had a drip rate of about that of a typical tree on a bucket, from the 30 trees after the sap ladder before the vacuum was turned on. The drips when the machine was running were almost a stream, but not really 100% continuous. Do any of you guys have any ideas or suggestions? Is this actually normal?

Thanks
Mike

[wildlifewarrior]

So after work I stopped by to trouble shoot and this is what I got…I walked the line and close to the end on the far side of our ladder, there was a hole in the line which is now all patched up. I originally had two stars at our 5 foot ladder and took one out, with no change, I removed the second to basically be back to where we were last year and flow increased by a few drops but not much. Last year we had a shurflo hooked up to the system that I basically reduced our lines down to this afternoon and we were getting around 35 gallons a day. We are baffled by this, any and all input would be greatly appreciated, this week is a perfect week and we don't want to miss it.

Thanks
Mike

[PACMAN]

check the diafram and the valves,maybe got some ice in there and put a hole in the diafram.

[PACMAN]

Also,check every tap and every lateral for leaks.

[wildlifewarrior]

Hi Pacman,

Thanks for posting. A few saddles were hissing today too but i fixed those. We are going to give each tap a few extra hits tomorrow to make sure they are set. We are just very frustrated and quickly getting discouraged with syruping. We love it, but everything seems to be five steps back and one step forward.

Thanks for your help,
Mike

[donniet22]

its important to have a gauge plumed in so you can see whats going on, with a new diaphragm I can get up to 24" of vac on my 130 taps, but you have to have that gauge on there to tell you when something is wrong

[Marc Duclos]

The valve at the inlet should be duckbill to make vacuum in a sap line. and if you have that right then the discharge/outlet should have at least 6 feet of hose and should be elevated so when the diaphragm is on the up stoke what has been sent up the discharge hose will act like a pee trap under your sink to prevent massive lost of vacuum at the pump. If your line are not dripping on the ground the pump working properly should at least suck better than it sucks.

[wildlifewarrior]

Hi Guy,
Marc, I don't know if we have a duckbill, it is a bosworth guzzler, the rep said that this one would be good for sap. I have a gauge on order. We picked one up from advanced auto, which didn't seem to be an ideal one, it had a soft rubber tube, that didn't show any vacuum. But I know there was because there was sap moving on the other taps on the same lateral the pulled tap was on. I also have an on-off valve about 3 feet away from the inlet, and when I close it, we can hear the pump really laboring, so I know there is some vacuum in there. I put in the order for the gauge two days ago so hopefully tomorrow or sat it will come in. Our outlet is about 2 feet, 1 foot out and 1 foot down into the tank at a right angle.
Thanks for the help. Once I get that gauge on there I will report back. In the meantime we set up a little shurflo on 15 other taps with about 50' of mainline and that thing is kicking butt. Sucking really hard, so we are bummed out that the expensive one seems to be struggling and the little one is working like a champ.

Thanks
Mike

[Moser's Maple]

i heard some run check valves before and after the pump to maintain vac better

[PACMAN]

My guzzler is hooked up to 1000 ft. of 1 in. mainline. I use cvs on my trees and I have over 450 on my guzzler and it worked great last year.There should be two duck bill valves, one for inlet and one for out.check your saddles too.

[PACMAN]

Also make sure your pump is on a slight dounhill angle to your tanks.

[lakeview maple]

i heard some run check valves before and after the pump to maintain vac better Yes I do, I was having an issue getting any vac and was given the advise to put a cv before and after and it greatly improved performance

[pls009]

I was having vac issues too and couldn't figure out my problem. Found out today that I had tapped a hollow part of a tree. Never could hear it but now that this problem is fixed, I'm getting good vac. I will post a short video of my setup. A little unconventional since I don't have a true mainline and am using my past 5/16 gravity lines but system is working great.

http://youtu.be/QKscxGEtYBA.

[wildlifewarrior]

We have been chasing leaks, etc and the sap was finally flowing today. I was actually worried about the hollow tap issue, there is one tree at the beginning of the line which was hollow in a few spots, seems to be flowing but will keep a close eye on it. Still waiting on the gauge and am eager to see what it reads.

Thanks for the help so far everyone!

Mike

[adk1]

I was having vac issues too and couldn't figure out my problem. Found out today that I had tapped a hollow part of a tree. Never could hear it but now that this problem is fixed, I'm getting good vac. I will post a short video of my setup. A little unconventional since I don't have a true mainline and am using my past 5/16 gravity lines but system is working great.

http://youtu.be/QKscxGEtYBA.wow, I see that your gauge stays constant. Mine cycles from 0 to 5"... And 9 to 5" and doesn't stay constant...

[Starting Small]

i heard some run check valves before and after the pump to maintain vac better

Are you using check valves in the 1 inch mainline? Like a foot or two before the pump and then a foot or two after the outlet? If so, where did you buy them? Thanks,
-Dave

[adk1]

Moser doesn't use a diaphram pump. I picked my check valves at my local hardware store

[wildlifewarrior]

Okay everyone here is our situation. We got the vacuum gauge in and hooked it up to our other lot with 15 taps on a shurflo, and we were getting 12 inches with two leaking taps. I put the gauge on one of the first taps, of the first lateral about 6 feet away from the guzzler…0 inches! NOTHING! I installed a saddle between our ball valve and the guzzler…19 inches. We have walked the lines and no leaks could be heard, we tapped each of the taps in a bit more and still no vac any ideas? There was one tree in the first set of laterals which seemed hollow on one side, could we be in a hollow spot. We aren't missing any taps or saddles, it just seems to be bizzar to us.

Any ideas???

Mike

[lpakiz]

If you are using drop lines to the "main line", turn each drop line horizontal at the tap and watch to see if bubbles and sap come out slowly. Sap should not move more than an inch per second.
You can also clamp off a suspected hollow tree drop line and see if that helps your vacuum. Or pull it and park it on its tee.

[donniet22]

Okay everyone here is our situation. We got the vacuum gauge in and hooked it up to our other lot with 15 taps on a shurflo, and we were getting 12 inches with two leaking taps. I put the gauge on one of the first taps, of the first lateral about 6 feet away from the guzzler…0 inches! NOTHING! I installed a saddle between our ball valve and the guzzler…19 inches. We have walked the lines and no leaks could be heard, we tapped each of the taps in a bit more and still no vac any ideas? There was one tree in the first set of laterals which seemed hollow on one side, could we be in a hollow spot. We aren't missing any taps or saddles, it just seems to be bizzar to us.

Any ideas???

Mike


mike can you get a picture of your pump set up?

[wildlifewarrior]

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w260/Thewildlifewarrior/Unknown_zps11si5fig.jpeg (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/Thewildlifewarrior/media/Unknown_zps11si5fig.jpeg.html)

The inlet, is wired up a bit, I actually did it right after I took the picture. The box has the guzzler in it, with space for the battery, the inlet comes in from the left and flows our the right about 8 inches then down into the storage tank, which is what the guzzler is mounted to. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

I have tomorrow planned out to fix any problems, we spent today boiling, but really need to get to this lot to figure out the problem. I will post back tomorrow giving an update. I appreciate the help guys.

[adk1]

We need a clearer and closer pic of your pump

[BreezyHill]

If you have 19 after the pump it is not a pump issue; as you have established vac in the line. Things to consider:
blockage of the line from ice or other like debris.

If you had a bad tap then you should not have a good vac reading any where due to the air from the hollow spot would not allow a vac to be established in that short of a system.

If you had a long system then yes you could establish some vac with a major leak a long ways away. IE: I had a major Fup this season, my young crew plus a girl friend...major contributing factor as she is very cute. forgot to install a plug or valve in the end of a new main. The 1" opening was about 4000' from the vac pumps. I was only able to get my vac up to 18" with one pump so I thru a valve and started the backup pump and the two together I could pull 24" ??? the search was on. We found a hand full of leaking saddles and one spout that was cut in, hole drilled and the spout not installed...I blame that on a kissing break:confused:

Walked all the way back thinking I had found the issues and the vac was only up a little. So back out I go listening to every saddle and watching bubbles. They were so slow and the closer I got to the issue the louder the main was. I walked all the way to the spot of the missing plug twice. The tubing made no sound at all. I decided to check hose clamps for leaks and found the last one was missing as was the plug. Funny thing the plug for the job was not in the UTV any coats, or the sugar hose. They don't recall if they put it in or not, so I am on the look out for gremlins.

Check the obvious and the not so obvious. You could have an ice dam in the line caused by a leaking saddle that froze the sap flow in the tube. I saw my first one of those this season in my pyrex dry line in the sugar house. Just before a connection there was an odd ice formation that grew for an hour as the trees started to flow the first day. The sugar house was supper cold from the winter and the ice dam grew til it nearly plugged the 1.5" line. Just before it plugged it off the dam disappeared into the releaser. My cell was dead so I couldn't get a pic.:evil:

This will be a great learning experience for you...after you find the issue.

Good Luck on a speedy conclusion!

ben

[wildlifewarrior]

Hi Everyone,
Yesterday was a crazy run up here, our mini pump system with 15 taps got us 35 gallons yesterday between 1PM and about 1AM, so we spent today collecting from the various sites and buckets. I did make it over there to the lot today, the temp was about 32 with some wind but very sunny, so I checked and most of the laterals and drops were thawed out. I turned the pump on, attached the vac gauge to the saddle 2 feet up the line that we will be using to check vac all the time, and still 0. Went to the first tree where we had an issue with the drill basically being pushed into one part of the tree when tapping, pulled the first tap, heard nothing, plugged it up, and the pump started laboring and it read 12 inches, so we were headed in the right direction. I assumed the tree was hollow/dead, so I pulled the other tap and bam almost instantly 19 inches, and after about 10 minutes 21'', I was pumped! I checked the vac on the second tap to verify and it was reading 19 same as the pump. I never thought of a hollow tree being a possibility for an issue, so THANK YOU!! I continued to walk the line, checking for weeping taps and giving them another hit or two. I had to move a saddle because it was causing a damming of the water due to our inexperience last year, so I plugged the old one, and added a new one and the pool of sap disappeared. By the time I got to the last tap pulled it and put the gauge on, my heart sunk…1 inch, the line is only 250 or so feet long, maybe a bit less. I walked up and down checking and listening but nothing seemed off. I plan on walking the lines when there is a good run to see if there was any ice issues like you were mentioning. We do have an ice strainer before an on/off valve which may have gotten filled with ice from the pool of water rushing down, which would still cause the first gauge to read ideal while preventing vacuum to the rest of the line. We still want to hook up our ladder, but figured we would get everything prior to the ladder working correctly before we add the last 40 or so taps.

Any other ideas other than an ice **** why we would have great vac at the pump and nothing after that? Come to think of it, lines that were only maybe 30-40 feet from the pump which were moving initially were not moving after I moved that saddle. We were still getting gravity drips tonight when we picked up the battery so some sap was making it through.

I appreciate your help guys

Thanks
Mike

[wildlifewarrior]

Hi everyone,
So the hollow tree was the first issue solved, then once vac was established for about 10 minute, I lost it, pulling 21 at the pump and 0 thirty feet away. My wife wanted to see the lot and help out, we were there walking the line, and she looked at my ball valve and said "I think it is clogged right there" I said no way I think it is something further down….after exhausting my other options, I took the valve apart and it was plugged with junk, sawdust, etc. in my ice screen. I cleared that and I was up to about 7 inches, but since there was so much liquid in the line, I figured that was the problem. The sap was ripping though, we had a few tidal waves come sloshing in, once the clog was cleared. It was ripping so nicely that I decided to hook up our ladder, and that instantly filled with sap that was being lifted in a continuous column and I could see it sloshing at the top of the ladder. After a while it was sitting at 4 inches, but I am sure that there are a bunch of leaks that I need to find, I was hoping that once the line was cleared of sap everything would run better, hoping I was leak free on the area before the ladder. I just need to hike it and fix the problems.

Thanks
Mike

[wildlifewarrior]

Okay so I spent yesterday working the lines, everything is down hill, we took the sags out etc, some taps were driven in a bit more, none of the saddles were leaking. It is about 700ft long with a ladder 300 or so feet in, it is only a 6 foot list, not much. We only have 1 inch of vac, so we are back to disparity. I feel that the next step is to cut each lateral and put a plug in and see if the leak is there. The line going into the bottom ladder is full of sap, but it isn't lifting, it is going up about 2-3 feet and just pulsing there. I dunno where else to check for leaks. Could it be a torn diaphragm? It pulls up to about 10 when it is clearing the lines from any sap that has collected in there. We are at a loss. Any suggestions?

Thanks
Mike

[adk1]

I have been maintaining aboit 10" of vac on my sap puller that's about as good as I can get consistantly

[Super Sapper]

Do not cut the lines, put some tubing on a needle nose vice grips and crimp the line.

[wildlifewarrior]

Thanks sapper, I couldn't think of a way to clamp the lines without damaging them, I appreciate it!

Mike

[Super Sapper]

I read it on here some where.

[NTBugtraq]

Wildlifewarrior, I am on the same adventure as you are. On my Guzzler, I have been as high as 21.5", but I typically only get 10". FWIW, it can rise, and lower, for no apparent reason. I believe its ice ****s, but I have no proof. I have been struggling with my artery lines (my main is 1", my arteries are 3/4", and my lats are 5/16"). My arteries keep twisting as the temperatures rise. This often leaves saddles on their side, pulling on the loop from the lat. I have to believe this is having an effect on seals, but I don't hear anything when I put my ear to the saddles. I have come to believe that the theory you will be able to hear a leak from some distance away only applies to High Vac, not Guzzler levels (e.g. 10-15").

Anyway, I have a plan for next season...something you may want to try. I am going to put good shut-off valve at each major intersection. Being able to shut down an entire artery, and then checking to see if vac improves, is a far easier way of isolating problems, IMO. Heck I would put one where each lat meets an artery if I could believe they would be true shut off valves. But even putting such a shut off valve every X feet on your mainline still helps isolate problems.

As far as the ladder goes, I have had ppl here say the Guzzler can, and can't, do a lift like you have described. I desperately need ladders in my bush as its so up and down...the majority slope I have is maybe 2%, and often 0%. With my idea of isolation valves, next year I plan on trying a 5' lift (single star) while having all arteries shut off, so I can see how the Guzzler does.

One thing I have learned, while searching for a solution to the low vac numbers, I have far too often done 2, 3, or 5 things...never learning the effect of any 1 of them. May bad, but its equally bad there are no definite experts on this stuff.

[Quabbin Hill Farms]

I have two ladders in my system with a guzzler one is a two six star lift and the other is a 4 6 star lift. I get about -24 at the pump on 350 taps I do let a little air in on the downstream side to help with the lift.

[Marc Duclos]

Ladder in a sap system is determined by cfm. The guzzler is not conducive for incorporating cfm. The guzzler can on pull maybe one foot.
Look at vacuum
cfm = lift.

[adk1]

Wildlifewarrior, I am on the same adventure as you are. On my Guzzler, I have been as high as 21.5", but I typically only get 10". FWIW, it can rise, and lower, for no apparent reason. I believe its ice ****s, but I have no proof. I have been struggling with my artery lines (my main is 1", my arteries are 3/4", and my lats are 5/16"). My arteries keep twisting as the temperatures rise. This often leaves saddles on their side, pulling on the loop from the lat. I have to believe this is having an effect on seals, but I don't hear anything when I put my ear to the saddles. I have come to believe that the theory you will be able to hear a leak from some distance away only applies to High Vac, not Guzzler levels (e.g. 10-15").

Anyway, I have a plan for next season...something you may want to try. I am going to put good shut-off valve at each major intersection. Being able to shut down an entire artery, and then checking to see if vac improves, is a far easier way of isolating problems, IMO. Heck I would put one where each lat meets an artery if I could believe they would be true shut off valves. But even putting such a shut off valve every X feet on your mainline still helps isolate problems.

As far as the ladder goes, I have had ppl here say the Guzzler can, and can't, do a lift like you have described. I desperately need ladders in my bush as its so up and down...the majority slope I have is maybe 2%, and often 0%. With my idea of isolation valves, next year I plan on trying a 5' lift (single star) while having all arteries shut off, so I can see how the Guzzler does.

One thing I have learned, while searching for a solution to the low vac numbers, I have far too often done 2, 3, or 5 things...never learning the effect of any 1 of them. May bad, but its equally bad there are no definite experts on this stuff.

I plan on installing a SS ball valve half way up my mainline just for this reason

[wildlifewarrior]

Hi guys,
Thanks for all the input. The ladder was pulling the first day when I was getting 17 inches, but after that the ladder was just partially lifting about a foot. I was also thinking about putting in ball valves periodically it would make checking for leaks loads more easy.

We did rework some of the sags out and added in some more side ties, and as a result got 90 gal from 30 taps this week on gravity alone, with probably 3 days of runs going off of our other sites, and buckets. I think part of the issue is the ladder, another problem which was just brought to my attention is that we must have a torn diaphragm, since my brother told me at the first check valve 6 feet in, the gauge jumps to like 15 then zero, with every movement of the actuator. So I will fix that tomorrow….of course it is the last run of the season I think, so we will see. I would like to get this thing basically running 100% so next season it would be loads simpler.

We have 40 taps before the star, so I have 4 ladder lines, would increasing to 5-6 or decreasing to 3 help in any way?

Thanks
Mike

[NTBugtraq]

We have 40 taps before the star, so I have 4 ladder lines, would increasing to 5-6 or decreasing to 3 help in any way?

Mike, you are likely going to get answers saying yes and no, as I said earlier. You gotta do such tests yourself, and now, cause later there will be no sap to test with.

[NTBugtraq]

Question. Since the Guzzler was primarily intended to be a transfer pump, could it push sap up? Right now, the outlet of my Guzzler goes through a check valve and then down into a sump well, where a sump pump then pumps it 8' up to the top of the storage tanks. Could the Guzzler do that on its own?