View Full Version : New Brunswick Tapping 2015
murferd
03-06-2015, 07:08 PM
Started tapping yesterday, tapped this afternoon as well. We have probably got about half of them in. So darn cold we can't really do much repair work on lines, hopefully tomorrow will be warmer. Looks like at least a week before sap runs, have a fair amount of time to get most things ready.
Rob Walton
03-08-2015, 03:33 PM
13 Taps out today. Will be putting out another 15 or so this week. Bring on the sap making weather!
Marvel26
03-08-2015, 08:05 PM
I ran my lines Friday, put in 36 taps (mix of buckets and tube) since then. Still have 64 to go, but I should have most in by mid week. Not at drop of sap yet... it was +1 yesterday and +2 today but it only hit that for an hour or so around noon.
dscanuck
03-09-2015, 10:27 AM
i'll I tapped 9 yesterday and finish the other 7 when I get home from work. Had my first drops of the season yesterday (Fredericton) look forward to a couple days of running this week.
I look back a couple years ago around the same time as this week and there was no snow and I was boiling sap on the 14th. Hopefully this year isn't like that year's.
MarkNB
03-09-2015, 01:47 PM
49 taps in on Saturday, the last 11 on Sunday. All on buckets. And, there was about .5L of sap all said. We drank it!
Marvel26
03-10-2015, 05:42 PM
I'm in SW NB and the first drips just started on my "clump-o-tree" (6 large trunks on one root mass). It is all alone on my point so it has the sun all day. 51 taps in so I'm over the hump...49 to go
Rob Walton
03-10-2015, 06:35 PM
Did a check of the taps and nothing dripping yet. Hope to get a run tomorrow. Found a few more (about 20) trees on my neighbours property tonight. So this weekend, another 20+ taps going in to flow to my wine buckets which I am not using at the moment.
Marvel26
03-11-2015, 01:03 PM
82 taps in.....zero sap. The temp last night never went below freezing.....not good. Here comes the worrying, this is the 1st year so she-who-must-be-obeyed is watching verrryy closely.
MarkNB
03-11-2015, 01:07 PM
weather.ca says it's +7c at home right now. Last night wasn't too cold, I think it only got to be about -2c last night. Should I be optimistic when I get home?
MarkNB
03-11-2015, 01:09 PM
Not sure what you're expecting, but I'd bet even if it turns out like last year Marvel, you should still end up with 3-4 gal of syrup.
Marvel26
03-11-2015, 02:22 PM
MarkNB,
You hit the nail on the head :)....I'm not sure what to expect. Just premature jitters I guess :D
MarkNB
03-12-2015, 09:57 AM
Yesterday was disappointing to say the least. +7c all afternoon, and not a drop. Not cold enough the night before I guess.
dscanuck
03-12-2015, 02:36 PM
I had a huge swath of snow fall my my roof but no sap. Not surprised though as the tree is still frozen. Need a couple warm days for it to thaw then go below freezing at night and up during the day.
We're entering a cold snap so I really don't expect sap until Monday/Tuesday.
Oh well, at least we're ready for when it does start.
Marvel26
03-13-2015, 08:03 PM
Checked the lines today and there was about a litre in total. On the positive side, I don't have to hump sap out of the woods.....sometimes I don't like the positive side of things!
murferd
03-15-2015, 08:05 PM
All taps are in, lines all repaired. Waiting patiently! Was April 1st last year before we got much.
Fiddlehead
03-15-2015, 08:37 PM
Looks like things may warm up by Friday, at least in Cambridge Narrows where my sugar bush is. Next week will be a flood of sap... At least that's my prediction. Good luck fellow NB tappers!
Rob Walton
03-16-2015, 03:43 PM
If it keeps snowing, I don't we will be able to find the buckets and lines!!
Will check the buckets for snow this week. And hope to have the remaining buckets up this weekend.
Targeting between 30-35 buckets and lines this year.......hope to have a sap run starting soon!
Rob Walton
03-16-2015, 03:44 PM
Oh and I don't like snow!!
:mad:
dscanuck
03-16-2015, 05:55 PM
And sap is a running. Buckets dripped sap most of the afternoon today add that to the liter I got on from Saturday and we're on our way. Thinking that the trees are waking up and will start to open up by weeks end. Next week's weather looks amazing as well!
Good luck everyone and a good season to all!
Run Forest Run!
03-16-2015, 06:45 PM
Have fun dscanuck! You've waited long enough. :)
dscanuck
03-17-2015, 08:29 AM
Have fun dscanuck! You've waited long enough. :)
Thanks Forest, same to you too! I see you're already on your way this season! This one will definitely be better than last year's.
Rob Walton
03-17-2015, 04:42 PM
I don't know dscanuck. None of my taps are running yet. And another shot of winter coming tonight.
Marvel26
03-17-2015, 05:49 PM
Rob, I'm in St George and the trees are just starting to come to life. A few of the southern exposure trees are giving a little sap....not much yet.
It could be our names though ;-)
Regards,
Rob
Rob Walton
03-17-2015, 08:26 PM
Maybe so Rob! Good news is, it has started snowing again!:cry:
Galena
03-17-2015, 08:40 PM
Just curious, mostly cause I lived in Hartland for about 6 months helping some friends start a business, so got to know the local area like Woodstock and of course *Freddickton* ...what's the tapping like around there? Good trees and climate?
Marvel26
03-18-2015, 10:15 AM
Rob I was very excited to see an additional 6" falling and the temp down to -16 all day. it was awesome :lol: that breaks the 4 metre mark for snowfall since the 1st of December!
Galena....I have no idea as this is my first real year tapping and it hasn't been too good imo. ;-)
murferd
03-18-2015, 11:57 AM
Galena,
I'm around Hartland, lots of Maple bushes around. A few large operations 30,000 to 100,000 taps out toward Juniper.
dscanuck
03-18-2015, 06:47 PM
Just curious, mostly cause I lived in Hartland for about 6 months helping some friends start a business, so got to know the local area like Woodstock and of course *Freddickton* ...what's the tapping like around there? Good trees and climate?
Hey Galena,
I tap in Fredericton, climate is great. I had a small run (1L total), but now it's cold until after the weekend then it should be good for the rest.
Good trees and good flow.
Dave
Rob Walton
03-24-2015, 06:49 PM
Put up a few more buckets tonight and low & behold, there were a few drips! Hopefully with the weather coming in the next few weeks, we get some sap. Going to tap another 10 or so tomorrow night. Heading to Cuba from April 10 - 17 so I need some sap!
How is everyone else making out?
Fiddlehead
03-24-2015, 08:13 PM
Should be very good from tomorrow though next week in NB if the forecast is even close. Heading to the sugar bush in Cambridge Narrows tomorrow.
MarkNB
03-27-2015, 12:27 PM
So, any luck, anyone? I haven't been down to the woods for the last couple days, but the forecast for the next week or so shows promise.
Rob Walton
03-27-2015, 07:30 PM
Getting a few drips but the trees are very stingy so far this year.
dscanuck
03-27-2015, 08:15 PM
Getting a few drips but the trees are very stingy so far this year.
Not a drop in the last couple days. Collected 5 L out of 11 taps on tuesday/wednesday. Should get a good run over a next few weeks.
Marvel26
03-27-2015, 10:47 PM
Just got back from a week away, checked the 6 taps in the back yard and I have about 3 gallons for the entire week, they weren't running today at all though. Will check the remaining 73 tomorrow
murferd
03-28-2015, 07:26 AM
Started boiling yesterday. Ran fairly good Wednesday,got lines flushed good started saving around 5:00 pm. So so Thursday(rainy),
not too bad yesterday. Not sure if it's going to get warm enough today, but forecast after today looks fairly promising. Hope to bottle
first batch tonight if we get enough sap to boil to warm up shack.
Marvel26
03-28-2015, 12:02 PM
7 gallons of sap in 82 taps....hopefully next week will be better
dscanuck
03-28-2015, 12:34 PM
Mine started running hard around noon. Today should be a good day.
MarkNB
03-28-2015, 05:29 PM
Good for you, DS, mine didn't take off today at all. After no one being down to the woods in almost a week, I was down at noon and got about 3 gal off 60 taps. Dismal.
Marvel, if you have a hotplate or a small outdoor burner of some kind, I'd take that 7gal and cook it down. Last year I waited on my first dribs and drabs for more sap and the first 5 gal spoiled.
Yep, that 14 day forecast does look promising. Still not holding my breath!
Marvel26
03-28-2015, 05:50 PM
I have a couple gallons on the stove right now! :-)
Rob Walton
03-29-2015, 07:26 PM
Finished up with the first boil of the year.....was eager to get one completed for the sweet treat!!
Thinking it might need to be boiled a bit more!!
11458
Run Forest Run!
03-29-2015, 07:45 PM
Thinking it might need to be boiled a bit more!!11458
Eat it before you convince yourself to boil it more. You've waited long enough for the first batch of 2015. Looks great!
Rob Walton
03-30-2015, 07:56 PM
I didn't take your advice Karen and boiled it down a little further.
I lost my patiences with 6 trees and moved the buckets to a more open section of the woods. All the new taps were running good. Shocked as it was after 6 pm when I made the move.
Hoping for a better run tomorrow. Only have until April 9th then off to Cuba for a week.
Rob Walton
03-31-2015, 07:00 PM
Collected another 18 litres over the last 2 days. Trees are slowing waking up but still have about 8 or so buckets that were bone dry! Might be moving a few more in the next couple of days.
Marvel26
03-31-2015, 07:15 PM
I haven't seen much from my reds....a few gallons max. the sugars are pumping though. I may have set my collection barrels up wrong though....I just put a thread out in the tubing forum to see what the others think. I got worried on the weekend so I put in another 21 taps on a neighbours property mostly sugars.....103 taps now and only 20-30 gallons of sap in total
Rob Walton
04-01-2015, 10:22 PM
Got another 10 litres tonight and added 2 more taps. Slowly but surely the sap sunami is coming.....at least I hope it gets here before April 10.
Rob Walton
04-03-2015, 09:00 PM
Another 7 litres of sap today. Up to 47 litres for the season....rather disappointing....:cry:.....now have 49 taps
Run Forest Run!
04-03-2015, 09:21 PM
Hey Rob, I'm betting at this rate your sap will still be flowing when you get back from Cuba. Maybe you should keep those taps in while you're gone.
Rob Walton
04-03-2015, 09:25 PM
Maybe so Karen as the temps for the up coming week are forecasted to be hovering around zero. It appears this week is not going to be great either.
Run Forest Run!
04-03-2015, 09:42 PM
Unless you'll be gone for two or three weeks, what's the harm?
Rob Walton
04-03-2015, 09:48 PM
I agree with ya Karen. Will be back on April 18th to full buckets of good sap!
Rob Walton
04-04-2015, 08:59 PM
Just finished up the latest boil.....yielded 1 litre. And it taste so good! Filter it before I botlled and kept the niter from it......and will be eating that with a spoon!
If my math is correct, I think I have 2.6% sugar.
About 1 litre of sap per tap and about 25 ml of syrup per tap.
If my math is incorrect please say so.
Marvel26
04-05-2015, 02:17 PM
Just came in from checking the lines.....not even a gallon of sap since Thursday. It was SUPPOSED to be -7 Friday and Saturday night then +5ish during the day....reality was it never went below +3 either night. Last night was -11, today +1 in the sun lines aren't frozen but there is zilch sap running.
dscanuck
04-06-2015, 08:06 AM
Just came in from checking the lines.....not even a gallon of sap since Thursday. It was SUPPOSED to be -7 Friday and Saturday night then +5ish during the day....reality was it never went below +3 either night. Last night was -11, today +1 in the sun lines aren't frozen but there is zilch sap running.
That's rough, I'm up to about 75L over all so far. Haven't boiled yet as I usually just freeze and concentrate the sap so I can get away with a couple boils a season.
Rob Walton
04-06-2015, 06:34 PM
Should I worry about the sap lines freezing and pushing the spiles out of the trees. Have a line with 7 spiles on it going to a wine bucket. Lines are full.
Looks like I have about 20-30 litres froze in the buckets.
Marvel26
04-06-2015, 06:36 PM
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I sweetened the pan today....I didn't want to hold sap any longer for fear it would sour. I have a lot to learn about firing and how to build the fire. I couldn't get a full boil in the entire flue section just the front and only a small boil in the forward syrup section. My arch is a touch sort though so I will need to modify it a bit for next year.
It was -15 at 0600 this morning and + 4 at 1300.... One line I checked has 29 taps on it and it wasn't dripping at all I checked again at 1700 and even then it was just a drip.
dscanuck
04-06-2015, 06:43 PM
11594115951159611597
I sweetened the pan today....I didn't want to hold sap any longer for fear it would sour. I have a lot to learn about firing and how to build the fire. I couldn't get a full boil in the entire flue section just the front and only a small boil in the forward syrup section. My arch is a touch sort though so I will need to modify it a bit for next year.
It was -15 at 0600 this morning and + 4 at 1300.... One line I checked has 29 taps on it and it wasn't dripping at all I checked again at 1700 and even then it was just a drip.
Where are you? I got a full 15 l today alone. Maybe you need to redrill to open up? I did that late march and they've been dripping since.
On your boil (or lack of), maybe to need to build the fire up closer to the pan and spread out, front to back. I get an amazing boil outside with a cider block jerry rigged evap but a build a fire under it too.
It's all trial and error with a backyard setup.
Marvel26
04-06-2015, 07:12 PM
I'm in St George and I may have to freshen up my taps...I shudder at this as the CV2 spiles I have keep losing their tips when I pull them.
My fire box is 28" deep which may have an effect, I was pushing the coals back and adding wood to the front but then I started spreading everything and it got better. I have natural air going under the entire grate but it comes in through a draft door so the dead spot is in the very front.
Marvel26
04-07-2015, 03:12 PM
Well, I freshened all my taps this morning, some had sap running and some didn't....there wasn't a noticeable difference in the wood or type of holes between sap producers and non sap producers other than the lack of sap, colour, wood condition, etc were all the same. I did notice that the older trees were inconsistent in producing sap (some trees has one or two taps producing and one or two that didn't while others were completely dry); all the younger trees were producing something. However, the trees that produced last year are substantially down in volume as well so the 'new' old trees I tapped may not be the culprit.
With that being said, if the non runners stay dry my 103 taps becomes closer to 50 or so....that would be unfortunate.
Thanks for the tip Dscanuck and fingers crossed that was the issue...
dscanuck
04-07-2015, 06:25 PM
Well, I freshened all my taps this morning, some had sap running and some didn't....there wasn't a noticeable difference in the wood or type of holes between sap producers and non sap producers other than the lack of sap, colour, wood condition, etc were all the same. I did notice that the older trees were inconsistent in producing sap (some trees has one or two taps producing and one or two that didn't while others were completely dry); all the younger trees were producing something. However, the trees that produced last year are substantially down in volume as well so the 'new' old trees I tapped may not be the culprit.
With that being said, if the non runners stay dry my 103 taps becomes closer to 50 or so....that would be unfortunate.
Thanks for the tip Dscanuck and fingers crossed that was the issue...
I hope that was it, you should know today or tomorrow if it was. I had a great day, 45L from 11 taps, I drilled the last 4 after work today.
The next few days look perfect!
Even with 50 taps, you'll have a great haul.
Rob Walton
04-07-2015, 08:19 PM
Collected 30 litres tonight. Haven't collected since Saturday afternoon. All filtered and ready to start boiling tomorrow night. Once the pans are on the stove, go collect some more.
Marvel26
04-07-2015, 09:59 PM
I bumped into a guy from my lodge who taps recreationally as well. He does 2 gallons of syrup then calls it quits and normally he's done by now but he doesn't even have enough for a boil yet.
Is it wrong to feel a bit exonerated by the failure of others? ;-)
kidding, I don't wish any ill will on him or others but I am glad its not necessarily something I am doing incorrectly.
dscanuck
04-08-2015, 08:21 AM
I bumped into a guy from my lodge who taps recreationally as well. He does 2 gallons of syrup then calls it quits and normally he's done by now but he doesn't even have enough for a boil yet.
Is it wrong to feel a bit exonerated by the failure of others? ;-)
kidding, I don't wish any ill will on him or others but I am glad its not necessarily something I am doing incorrectly.
For sure, that's a good way to know that it's not you, it's the trees ;) What do the bases look like? I found my sap started running way faster once the snow melted around the base of the trees to allow more heat to reach it thus allow the pressure built up during the cold nights to release easier during the day.
I tapped a tree around 4:40 and when I went to check on it around 7 pm, I had 400-500ml in the bucket.
I'm sure you're going to have a sapnami in the next few days and then you won't know what to do with it all.
Marvel26
04-08-2015, 09:58 AM
Only a couple have more than a foot or two of open ground around them. Most of them still have snow up the trunks at least a little bit.....I may have to do some shovelling ;-)
Marvel26
04-09-2015, 09:21 PM
Well, I had some activity yesterday afternoon....not much but when added together probably close to 55gallons of sap.
Today looked very promising as everything was dripping at 9am. my clump-o-tree was gushing, it has 6 large trunks all 18"+ in diameter so I have one tap in each. the 6 taps go into 2 five gallon buckets, 3 in each. At 11am, I dumped one bucket into the other for easier transport and when I got back with the empty bucket not more than 10min later there was already about 1/2 to 1/3 of a litre of sap in the bottom. I wasn;t able to check the barrels but hopefully they did well!
Unfortunately, I also had a setback tonight....I noticed that the floor was sticky beside my pan, this lead me to discover that my float box has a small leak. It had been sitting since Monday so I lost everything above the level of the leak, about 2/3rds of the semi syrup in my 2X5 hybrid pan, probably close to a 1 and 1/3 gallons of finished syrup....on the floor.
I was sick to my stomach when I saw the extent of the syrup lost
Rob Walton
04-10-2015, 06:14 AM
Marvel, that sucks about the crack.
Pretty good collection with 55 gallons!
I finished up the latest batch last night. Started with 48 litres, ended up with approx 1250 ml syrup.
Potentially could be my last boil this year. Off to Cuba this afternoon but am leaving the buckets/lines out. So if the saps doesn't spoil, I will be boiling next weekend.
Good luck everyone.
Marvel26
04-10-2015, 07:54 AM
Have fun in Cuba and remember you can tap palm trees ;-)
¿Dónde está el jarabe de arce? = "Where is the maple syrup?"
dscanuck
04-11-2015, 06:19 AM
Well, I'm doing my first boil today. Tress have been flowing faster than I can freeze it. My 75L roughneck that fits in my freezer is full with about 200L of sap concentrated down to 75L and my buckets are full on the trees. Going to be a long day.
I'll let ya's know how I make out! Good luck to all those boiling!
And Marvel, sorry to hear about the crack. I hope you get it fixed ASAP.
Marvel26
04-11-2015, 06:55 AM
Thanks DScanuck. good luck today and remember if you get too much syrup you can always do what I do and pour it on the floor ;-)
dscanuck
04-13-2015, 12:27 PM
Here's the tally from my first boil. Roughly 4L. 11688
Run Forest Run!
04-13-2015, 12:38 PM
Good work dsc. Any pancakes in your future?
Marvel26
04-13-2015, 07:37 PM
Well done!
Marvel26
04-14-2015, 07:23 PM
Hey Dscanuck, how are the buds up there? things are swelling here but I think we are still a week away...or so. the temps are crap though its not supposed to go below zero all week.
dscanuck
04-15-2015, 12:47 PM
Hey Dscanuck, how are the buds up there? things are swelling here but I think we are still a week away...or so. the temps are crap though its not supposed to go below zero all week.
I am thinking that this will be the last week, for sure. I had the best run of the year 2 days ago and today and tomorrow it should dip below 0 here. Other than that, it looks above zero the rest of the time.
I haven't seen any buds yet though.
Marvel26
04-15-2015, 02:09 PM
It's 24 C in the sun right now and I unfortunately noticed that there were some very white people sunbathing on the snow today as I was driving around for work ...that is probably a better sign than the buds that the end has come ;-)
dscanuck
04-17-2015, 10:59 AM
It's 24 C in the sun right now and I unfortunately noticed that there were some very white people sunbathing on the snow today as I was driving around for work ...that is probably a better sign than the buds that the end has come ;-)
Been getting some decent runs the last few days, already back to about 60L in sap in reserve. Monday looks to be the last run here in Fton. -2 Sunday and -2 on Monday than above zero at night the rest of the week.
Rob Walton
04-18-2015, 07:04 PM
Back from vacation. No maple trees tapped but did tap some rum, vodka, tequila, beer and wine trees! 😇
Made it around today.....25 litres of sap. Haven't collected for a week....so not great but will take it.
Boiling will happen tomorrow.
Good looking run dscanuck.
Marvel26
04-19-2015, 03:28 AM
Pulled most of my taps last night. I have one more line to pull at a neighbours house, grand total for the week should be 20 gallons. Boiling/clean up will occur this afternoon depending on my mental state at the end of my shift ;-)
Rob Walton
04-19-2015, 11:21 AM
Things are looking good today and tomorrow.....after that it is all over.
Marvel26
04-19-2015, 07:18 PM
Did my last boil this afternoon. I will still have to do some final finishing on the lobster fryer once my hydrometer gets here....customs seems to have taken an interest in it. I'll give an update on that for those who are interested a bit later.
Final tally on sap is ready now though, 205 gallons collected since the first week of March. This equates to 1.99 gallons of sap per tap for the entire season!
MarkNB
04-20-2015, 01:07 PM
OK guys, I have to say, after not having stopped in for the last 10-12 days, if you read the last 2-3 pages of this thread, it looks pretty funny. 'Where's the sap?' 'Yeah, anyone getting any?' 'Stupid Mother Nature!' etc, then not one reply later, 'all done'. lol. Having said that, that's exactly how my season went too.
Got about 140-150gal of sap, most of which came two weeks ago, then very little last week, then the ice came off the river, the river rose and flooded my woods (again). Pulled most of my 70 taps Wed, and the Mrs. did the last 10 yesterday. Burned my first 8gal boil this year (again) and lost about 2 cups. Not a big deal right?
The big boil for the year Apr 11-12 (23 five-gallon pails) yielded almost 4 gallons, but as I was finishing it in a big stock pot on the stove it boiled over. The handles of the pot were covered in boiling syrup so we had to wait for it to stop after I turned the burner off and flicked a bit of bacon fat into the pot. Probably lost a quart of syrup over that.... a little harder to take than the first two burnt cups. Final boil yesterday on 33 gal of sap yielded 3/4 gal of syrup, so I'm over 4 gallons on the season, which is way better than last year. I'm happy at any rate, so's the family. My wife even made snow taffy late last night.
Marvel26
04-20-2015, 05:52 PM
Mark,
I hear you on the pain of losing syrup.....read post #64 ;-)
Rob Walton
04-20-2015, 08:05 PM
I am not done yet. Just the latest batch and there is sap in the bucket from yesterday and tonight...hopefully.
Sucks about losing syrup. So precious, so I can imagine it sucks!
MarkNB
04-21-2015, 08:55 AM
Hey Marvel,
Yep, over a gallon of lost syrup would probably make me cry. Last two years I've had to haul my sap up to the barn using snow shoes and a toboggan. Not that it's the steepest or furthest climb, but it is uphill when the sap cans are full.
All the labour involved into getting this stuff only to have that happen at the end, just makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it.
MarkNB
04-21-2015, 08:58 AM
Hey Rob, you still getting overnight lows below 0? What's your snow cover like up in Sackville? Down here was kinda weird this year. Still a lot of snow on the ground, and no noticeable bud swelling, but the sap stopped flowing. While it might have started up again, my woods are now completely flooded so season over whether there was any sap left or not. :(
murferd
04-23-2015, 08:08 PM
Bottled last of our syrup tonight. Finished up with 120 imp gals, about the same as last year. Not that impressive! Down about 25% from previous years, maybe the new normal though.
Rob Walton
04-25-2015, 07:08 PM
Hello Mark, we had a coup,e nights last weekend that were below zero. Collected the last batch of sap (30 litres) last night. Looked a little cloudy so I did a test boil. No noticeable smell from it. Going to boil it down tomorrow, Currently buried in snow.
Rob Walton
04-29-2015, 08:55 PM
Finishing up the last of the 30 litres collected on the weekend.
Smells like maple but is very dark and lots of niter. Ended up with 1200 ml which is a pretty good yield. Still have a few buckets hanging.....might get a run tonight/tomorrow. Though my wife says we have lots of other projects to complete.....quoting....."time to let it go Rob".....never!
Marvel26
04-29-2015, 09:43 PM
It's great you still have sap running, Rob...everything stopped dead down here a week and a half ago.
My final tally is 2.66 gallons of syrup. That's only 0.025 gallons or 94.5ml per tap.
Disappointed? yup.
There is always next year....
Marvel26
05-01-2015, 06:08 PM
I may have de-tapped too early, all week had frosty nights and warm days.....darn forecast told me it was going to be warm night and day! the buds haven't popped yet either
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