galvanized buckets and lead

[jwbmaple]

I am new to the making of maple syrup and had a question about galvanized buckets. I had recently heard that there may be a lead concern when using these types of buckets. thoughts?

[Fred Henderson]

Yes there is some concern but there is also guide lines to go buy, as to how much is allowed. Each state has different standards.

[Russell Lampron]

Jwbmaple,

If you already have the buckets use them and keep the sap gathered. Sap absorbs the lead and the longer it sits there the more lead it absorbs. If you don't already have the buckets there are other alternatives like using tubing and running it into a 5 gallon bucket or a plastic tote at the base of the tree. Sap sacks are another choice.

Russ

[super sappy]

I am for some reason real paranoid about lead . I use some old buckets but if sap sits in them longer than 8 hours I dump them. In five years of tapping that has only happened once.I have eaten alot of syrup and the lead has only affected-affected- affested -affected my typing hand at this point. Where can you send syrup in New York to be tested ? super sappy

[brookledge]

Check with your state association for the nearest testing facility. The only time mine was tested was a quite a few years ago.
As for wondering about equpiment you should be able to go to your local hardware store and get a kit that will test to see if there is any lead present in what ever your concern is.
Keith

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Used aluminum buckets are a fairly cheap alternative also.

[maplehound]

There are a couple diffrent labs that will test for lead. The cheapest is your local dept. of agriculture. They should do it for free but then the results are public knowledg. ( at least the Ohio Dept. of Ag.) The next cheapest and most recomended for privasy is
Endyne Inc.( combined with Sci test Labs Inc.)
160 James Brown DR.
Williston, Vermont 05495
Phone 802-879-4333
Fax: 802-879-7103
Web: www.endynelabs.com
Cost $25 per sample, chain of custody paperwork required with each sample.

If this doesn't work for you then I have address for 2 other labs but the cost for them is $40 for New Hampshire Division of Public Health Services and UVM Agricultural and Enviromental Testing Lab may or may not be testing at any given time.
After this past Sat. I don't recomend selling any syrup that has had the sap collected in galvinized buckets.

[Bucket Head]

Maplehound,
What was last Saturday? What did you hear about sap/syrup from galvanized buckets? Please explain. Thank's.

Steve

[maplehound]

Bucket head
This past Saturday was the Ohio Maple days. As I have posted elsewhere There was alot of discusion on lead in syrup. Ohio has decided to enforce a 10 year old law limiting syrup lead to under 250 ppb and anyone over 250 and under 500 ppb gets a letter asking for a plan of action to reduce it in the future. If your over 500ppb then they will embargo the syrup for further testing. If it still test over 500ppb then it is destroyed. Those in Ohio ( such as Richards Maple products) that buy syrup wholesale in bulk have all batches tested before they can buy it. It has suddenly become quit the issue here. Even Vermont only has an action in place and not a law, and they were the first to really push the issue.

[jwbmaple]

Could you line the buckets with platic garbage bags. I have 20 buckets that I plan on using

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Use the buckets and don't worry about it if you are a smaller producer. This is more of the government trying to scare everybody. There are some producers out there that use several thousand buckets. It seems more of a scare tactic than anything else.

[Russell Lampron]

With only 20 buckets the lead shouldn't be an issue. Epoxy paint is available but expensive. I'm not sure if the Maple Guys can get it but Bascom's does carry it.

Russ

[Fred Henderson]

I am going to use 400 buckets and I am not worrying about the lead. You got more lead in your kids school water pipes than you will ever get out of syrup.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!

[Parker]

The proof is in the pudding,,,make some syrup from you buckets then send out a sample to be tested,,if you plan on selling your syrup at stores in N.H. the state will come and test your syrup anyways,,better to find out ahead of time than from the state............
Personally I think buckets are a major pain in the a$$,,and a waste of valubel time during the season,,,in my opinion you are way ahead of the game with some tubing and plastic 5's,,,
I just laugh seeing the snow plow filling all the roadside tree buckets with salty snow,,makes real nice syrup!!!!

[Fred Henderson]

Parker; Buckets are used elsewhere and not just roadside trees. The University of Vt in some of their studies has found that the road salt is taken up thru the roots of roadside trees and then transfers to the syrup. So after the lead issue is dead then it will be salt from road trees, and so on and so. Like I said you yourself will injest more lead from water pipes then you ever will from syrup. Lets face it you drink and use more water than you do syrup.

[lmathews]

I agree Fred,I know some producers that are 82 years young.They live in Russel and they have been using buckets for 2 generations and starting the 3rd.They prefer the buckets.There are to many old time producers around that people should take that into consideration.They have not been infected by lead.Buckets have been around alot longer than tubing,give it another 50+ years and they will start saying that tubing will effect us some how.I buckets on road trees for and if it wasn't for buying a 50 acre sugar bush I still would.
"if you have galv. buckets I say use them"

[Fred Henderson]

10 years down the road your respective state will be coming into your surgarbush and tell you which trees you can tap and how many taps you can put into each tree, and they will charge a fee for their services. Ten more years and I will be out of it or just stand on the sideline watching.
12 years ago when I was building our house the state of New York and this township would not let me use CPVC for my hot and cold water. These organization have the funds to do the research. Do they know something that we don't about plastic tubing. The Lamb vinyl tubing was supposed to be the greatest stuff since sliced bread. Now most of it has been discarded. I plan on keeping my buckets.

[maplehound]

lead poisoning is an acumulative thing. Those who die of it ( 2000 last year , so we were told ) get it from many difrent sources. Maple syrup is just one possible contributor to the problem. Water pipes are another. It was interesting to note though that lead in soldered preheaters was not found to be a contibuter in maple syrup operations. I do believe that this isue isn't as big as it is made out to be but it is an isue. We should all be considering it as we upgrade our operations, and as we decide how to manage the operations we curently run. Other posible lead spots in the operation may be: metal spiles, Tanks, Pumps( including the old brass pumps on filter presses), roadside dust that gets into the buckets and uncovered tanks, lead solderd pans, the list can go on but you get the idea. I believe we don't all need to panic and go out and buy new equipment but just keep it in mind when we can upgrade. Always remember we are making a food grade product and when we buy food from the markets we expect it to be edibal and safe. Our customers should expect no less of our product.

[Fred Henderson]

How about the air we breath and the water we drink. This lead BS is just that, BS. Its out there and its everywhere. For any groups to single out maple producers is another crock. Maple producers represent a very small percentage of those making food. Lets take a look at the meat industry. Livestock drinking water out of a galv stock tank. Most people here eat more meat than syrup. Lets get the gov to jump on them. Better yet lets shut the livestock industry down, lay off all the meatcutters. What would that due to the GNP. This country could go into another depression not a recession.
I don't think that the started of this thread ever thought that it would go this far, but this has really got me on a rant.

[maplehound]

Fred,
i wouldn't let this isue get you to upset. I am a meat cutter by trade andI know what the isues are with that area of the food industry. Believe me they are working on them and we are constantly being inspected for all kinds of things. But just like any food inudtry we need to keep working on keeping our food supply safe. Honesly I think that the more we sanitize and protect our food supplies the more our own immune systems relaxe and become vonurable to what does slip by. But when the lawyers come calling with aligations of someone getting ill caused by your product you have to be doing something to protect your self.
As for maple, we have just a few minor issues with our product and if we as a group keep trying to improve on those problems we can keep the goverment agencies off our back. But if we don't show an effort to try and fix or prevent problems then they will come down harder on us.
Lets face it there is no other industry were a food product is produced in barns in peoples back yards or in the middle of a woods, sometimes with no way of getting to the barn but to wade through mud to get to them. And is then packaged there or in a kitchen with no inspedtion at all.
I think we are very fortunate to not have more inspection than we do. So far I believe we have been able to do an awsome job at keeping this product safe. I hope that we can continue to do so in the future, and we can if we all continue to improve and police ourselves.

[Parker]

Last time I was in a meat cutting plant it was all stainless.............

[maplehound]

All but the cutting blocks. And those are always a source of contreversy. Several years ago they made us all change to hard plastic blocks. Because wood held the bacteria more. Now they say that the wood blocks may acually be better. Everything else is SS.

[Fred Henderson]

Well what about that livestock drinking water out of those galv stock tanks and grazing the grass land covered with polutants. The feed that they are fed and all the chemicals that are put into growing feed.

[Parker]

All I am saying is if you have another option,,why would you run buckets with lead in them?? And if you do use them just test your syrup to see how much lead there is in your syrup,,,

[lmathews]

I believe you forgot the biggest industry that is in a barn,in the back yard.It is the small milk farms that still use the old dump station and pails.These systems have lead in the pails and some of the filters are galv.This milk is tested,however we do not know were this milk ends up.There is still the presence of lead and you do not here about them getting shut down,they to get inspected regularly.
So back to the topic I would not waste my time buying new if you already have stuff that works!

[maplehound]

I guess untill the state or fedural gov. comes knocking on your door you can do what you want. Here in Ohio (and after reading the maple digest in Onterio as well) the state is knocking. As for me I have all SS or food grade plastic in my set up. When I make next year I will sample my syrup, so when my customers ask ablut the lead issue , I can say yes it is a problem for some but I know mine is OK. I will be able to show them proof of it.
Don't be surprised when 20-20 or some other big evening news show does an exposey on the maple industry and really knock us all for a loop. It might even be your outfit they show. This has happened to several grocery store's meat dept. and now those stores are either closed or are in bankruptcy, and all the other store's meat dept. have to deal with the fall out.

[Fred Henderson]

I believe you forgot the biggest industry that is in a barn,in the back yard.It is the small milk farms that still use the old dump station and pails.These systems have lead in the pails and some of the filters are galv.This milk is tested,however we do not know were this milk ends up.There is still the presence of lead and you do not here about them getting shut down,they to get inspected regularly.
So back to the topic I would not waste my time buying new if you already have stuff that works!

As you well know there is a big Amish community in this area. They send theirs to a factory that makes it into cheese that is sent all over the world.

[Fred Henderson]

How feasible would it be to put a small plastic bag(food grade) inside of a galv bucket and roll it over the edge? If it was a heavy gauge, say 4 or 6 mil it would last the whole season.I will be takeing a bucket next week to my wholesaler to see what he can do.
Does anyone have a price there abouts of sap bags with the holders?

[Russell Lampron]

Fred,

The Maple Guys has the sap sack holders for $4.00 each and the sap sacks are $.50 each. I don't know if anyone makes liners for buckets but it would be a good idea if someone did. There are alot of old buckets that are still in use.

Russ

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

In Bascom's catalog it tells of using the cross flow pans for producers(Right Fred?)-Look around there are sap sak holders and bags in there also in the Bucket section..

I had a guy that was going to send me a couple of Sap sak holders+bags but they never made it by mail... Never seem to get the mail from a few of the other Maple Traders for some reason? Global warming HOT AIR must be the cause....

[lmathews]

I know people that use 2.5 gal freezer bags.

[Fred Henderson]

I know people that use 2.5 gal freezer bags.

Do they just hang them on the spile or are they being used a bucket liner? I plan on taking a sample of last year syrup to Atlantic Testing to see just where I stand. In the Maple Digest that came yesterday there was a well written article in it on lead. It appears the it will do no good to just bury our head in the sand and hope the problem goes away. I always considered myself and my operation to be professional and I want to keep it that way. So before the gov tells me to do some I will do it now.

[royalmaple]

I think you'll see many people do just want you mentioned to their buckets. Put a sap sak in them as a liner or some other liner then the bucket just holds the bag in place. It is about 6 of one or 1/2 dozen of another weather you sell your buckets for the sak holders and convert totally or just use the buckets and saks as a liner.

I think the best price I have seen on the sap saks is like 50 bucks for 250 of them. THat was the last bunch I ordered anyway. So about 20 cents each.

I'm working on a couple of experiments with the bags. When I get more of the kinks ironed out I'll post, might save people a lot of money. Or might be more headaches. But I am leaning toward the first...

:-)

[Russell Lampron]

I wonder if a supplyer is looking at this thread. It seems like there would be a market for a plastic liner for sap buckets. I would buy them. Clean up would be easy, just recycle the plastic liner.

Russ

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Good job for the bucket guys to do a little searching and inquiring with a plastic manufacturer and maybe they could come up with a cost feasable liner/Although there are several different sizes of buckets in use=so it would have to fit the biggest bucket out there.

[Fred Henderson]

A sap sack or plastic bag would be the way to got because of so many different size buckets. I plan on going to see a suppler of all kinds of kitchen equipment Monday and I am sure that I will find something.In the meantime I will try to get my hands on a sap sack just to see how they fit a bucket. I don't think that any of us using buckets could ever sell them now with the lead issue . Scrap metal only.

[maplehound]

Those buckets make great flower pots and decoratons. I bet you could get more for them from a florist or a greenhouse than you could from a maple producer anyhow. I even have a bucket that hangs upside down from a chain in my living room that has been converted into a light. I seen them at a maple tour in NY several years ago. My point is if your creative there is a lot of uses for them.

[Rich Baxter]

I would like to add to this discussion that galvanized buckets made after 1994 do not contain lead. There are test kits available to check your buckets very easily (even I did it). This may save you some problems of worrying about liners, etc. I was lucky that my 40 buckets do not contain lead. I know this can be a problem for those with larger operations. Also be aware that old galvanized spiles and galvanized storage tanks add lead to the sap or syrup. The problem is that both sap and syrup are somewhat acidic which leaches the lead from the container. Basicly it is a time problem, the longer the storage the more lead added to the product.
Galvanized and lead soldered evaporators add very little lead do to the time the sap is in the evaporator. Also some of the lead attaches to the sugar sand and percipitates out (a good thing), however when the sweet is left in the evaporator until the next boil the lead goes back into solution and does not percipitate out on the next boil. It is recommended that the sweet be drained and FILTERED to remove the suger sand. It can then be placed back in the cleaned pans at startup for the next boil.
Rich Baxter

[maplehound]

Thanks Rich,
I am glad that someone else from Ohio has some input here. I can't always remeber everything that was discussed nor can I always word things right.

[Fred Henderson]

Maplehound
There are so many of those buckets on ebay now that you couldn't haul them away with 10 eigthteen wheelers. You know I did a lot of tin knocking before I retired. Maybe I should just start makeing some out of SS. I bet I could crank out 600 easily.

[super sappy]

If you want to get into the liner business for real bring your wallet. A FDA aproved Liner with a Made in the usa label will cost big time. If you find a manufacturer that can dump his trash in the Yangzee river then the cost per liner is less than 1/2 per piece but you need to order full shiping containers.40,000 lbs of bag liners is alot. I dont have that kind of money to invest/gamble. I bid however get a first hand edcuation on how the trading gets done in this country.I did like the Idea of assorted colors",just like yoou american call life saver" Never sleeping and alwayse dreaming-Super Sappy

[ibby458]

What irrates me is that this is just one more example of regulators running wild. My youngest two sons just brought home their report cards, Both are on the High Honor roll, with a 90+ average. Of the 3 older ones, 2 have graduated from college and the middle one is partway thru, and on the Dean's List.

They were all raised on our syrup, gathered in soldered buckets, boiled in a soldered evaporator. I'm pretty sure all are lead soldered. Since we make it ourselves, I'm sure my boys ate a lot more than most kids!

Tell me again how lead in syrup harms mental development. You'll have to start early to convince me.

This reminds me of when I was running a Water Treatment Plant. At one point, the EPA came up with a list of pesticides we had to test for, Including several that were ONLY used on banana, pineapple and coffee plantations. At Thousands of dollars PER TEST, for chemicals that had NEVER been used, stored or manufactured in NY. Thankfull, the trade association got that one shut down. For now. The First rule for bad regulations, is - they NEVER go away, just occasionally, enforcement is "delayed".

[Fred Henderson]

It looks like a clear cut case of discrimination against maple producers. Just because we are not enough in numbers to do anything about it. So its either comply or lock the door. My sugarhouse is big enough to made it over into a summer rental cottage for anyone that likes being near nature.

[RUSTYBUCKET]

Looks like selling syrup in recycled galvanized buckets isn't going to be the big money maker I had hoped for.

Concerning the Ohio law, how long before you'll need a "This product contains no lead" label??

[royalmaple]

Fred-

Send me your address and I'll send you a sap sak to look at.

[Russell Lampron]

Matt I would like one too. I think you have my address but I will pm it to you.

Russ

[Fred Henderson]

I did not have a luck looking for food grade, plastic bag liners for my buckets. So now its back to the drawing board.

[royalmaple]

Fred-

You just reminded me of another project I was working on last year. I just dug it out. I'll send you a message later with some details but I got a resource for the fda liners very cost effective. I forgot all about it until just now. I took it only so far and never did anything with it, but I'll spend some time on it later tonight.

[Fred Henderson]

Matt,
Sounds interesting and promising. I will be chewing my nails waiting.

[tuckermtn]

this may have been clarified earlier, but I cannot seem to find it...

is the source of the lead concern in the buckets just the solder or the galvized metal itself? if it is just the solder thats the issue, then why not just seal that part of the bucket w/ a few coats of epoxy food grade paint?

[royalmaple]

Fred and anyone else that is interested. You can get FDA USDA approved poly bags from Uline. I think they will sell to anyone, but if not I have a business account with them and could get them for you.

www.uline.com

or 1-800-295-5510

I use them for business supplies, and found they carried FDA Bags. I was looking into buying some bags for sap saks, but never really took it any further but I did buy some bags and forgot about them.

The item I think you can get away with is

S-1011 it is a 2 mil poly bag that is 18x24. I measured a bucket I have and get a rough circumfrence of 35 inches, so the 18x2 or 36 inches would allow you to put the bag in the bucket, and drape over the outside edge and still use your cover as you normally would.

I got some of the 4 mil and 6 mil bags, only because I wanted the integrity of the bag to be able to hold the weight of the sap if it were full. That kinda goes out the window when you are just looking at it for a liner, the bucket is still supporting the weight of the sap, not the bag.

They sell in cases of 500 bags for 44 bucks plus shipping just a hair over 8 cents a piece. Maybe others would go in on some and split them up.

The catalog shows clear print on the 4 and 6 mil bags that they meet the FDA and USDA specifications made from virgin polyethylene film. I don't see it on the 2mil now that I am looking but a quick question to the operator should clear that up. I just don't think there was room on that page of the catalog to print it. Can't see why the 2mils aren't fda approved, but in that case they have 4mil bag item #S-2137 18x18 80.00 for 500.


This could be the forefront of a revolution. I hope leader and lapierre aren't looking. I want commission if you are listening.

Should work as slick as pulling a greasy string from a cat's behind.

[royalmaple]

By the way the sap saks are 12 inches wide, or roughly 24 inches round and won't fit the buckets, and they are over 20 cents each in cases of 250.

[Dave Y]

There is an other plus to putting liners in buckets other than the lead issue. Think of the time you will save not washing buckets. there would be enough time to ........ Well you Know what I am getting at.

[maplehound]

Tuckermtn,
There are alot of difrent types of mdetal buckets. Some where made of galvinized metal that contained lead in the galvanizing. Some where made of galvinized metal that contained less lead but where soldered with lead. Others where made of ternplate steal, that contained up to 50% lead in the metal and then sealed at the seams with straight lead. The ternplate steal buckets are smooth and clean looking and ussually are thought to be the best becuase of there clean apearance, but they are the worst. all buckets as well as most tanks and evaporators produced before 1994 contained lead of some type. If you arn't sure if yours contains lead, go to you rhardware store and buy a lead test stick from the paint dept. These sticks contain 2 difrent chemicals that when mixed together and then exposed to lead will turn red. The redder the stick turns the more lead is in the metal. Don't just check the main bdy of metal but the seams and any obvious metal changes in the equipment being checked.

[tuckermtn]

maplehound- thanks for the explainer. when I bought out a older sugarmaker in the area a few months back he had around 200 Grimm buckets- look like the 16 qt version. Most of them look like they have been painted on the inside. I tested the inside(i.e. painted) of the buckets with a lead test and it was negative. I took some sandpaper and removed the paint on the solder- tested again and it was positive. Planning on either a repaint on insides of buckets to be sure or some sort of bag liner.

[Fred Henderson]

royalmaple,
I went to their web site and the 18x24 2mil bags are USDA & FDA approved for food contact. I will be placing a call to them this morning. I want to be sure that the bag has the circu that I need.

[ibby458]

Hey Fred - if you buy a case, would you sell me some to try? Beth likes the idea of not having to wash buckets any more.

I imagine the lid would clamp down on the bag to hold it in place, but I wonder if dumping them would be harder with the bag sliding out?

[Dave Y]

I think if you put duct tape around the bucket and tape it on, you should be ok.

[Fred Henderson]

Hey Fred - if you buy a case, would you sell me some to try? Beth likes the idea of not having to wash buckets any more.

I imagine the lid would clamp down on the bag to hold it in place, but I wonder if dumping them would be harder with the bag sliding out?

Yes I will defently sell you some . But I still have not called them yet. Just too much going on this morning.

[Fred Henderson]

I think if you put duct tape around the bucket and tape it on, you should be ok.

I don't plan on useing duct tape either. I am just wondering how long it will be before the equipment dealers jump on this band wagon.

[RileySugarbush]

This company may have what you need. Flexible or semi-rigid FDA approved liners for pails and drums. Looks like the could make custom shapes, too.

http://www.cdf1.com/linerpro.htm#

[royalmaple]

See what I started, Now bascoms will be selling them for 1.00 each. I'd rather share stuff like this person to person. Unless they are going to send me a "royal"ty check each month.

Like russ said, no more bucket washing or fixing leaky buckets. If you use a liner.

The tops I use are the slide on roof type ones, so they should catch the bag and hold it in place fine. The other thing is when you empty you can hold the bucket in two hands and hold the bag too, if you pour it out I don't see why it would be messy. Or just take the bag out and tilt like you are dumping a sap sak.

[royalmaple]

I'll buy a case too and sell the extras, I only need a hundred or so, or I'll buy a hundred off you fred.

Fred if you call and you can't order, let me know and I'll order a case and divy them up, I do have an account with them, but I don't think you need one.

[tuckermtn]

Its been a while since I had high school math, but trying to get a handle on what size liner might fit...my buckets are Grimms and are 11" across the top 12.5 in deep and 9+" on the bottom. I think that gives me a top circumfrence of 35" ish. Is that a pretty standard size? if so, I would be interested in a couple hundred bags also...fred- were you thinking 2 mil is thick enough?

I would think if you dbl sided duct tape on the bottom of the bucket it would hold the bag in place as you dumped sap. The lid should keep the top of the bag in place...

[Russell Lampron]

Tuckermtn,

I was thinking the same as you for holding the bag into the bottom of the bucket. I was also thinking of something like that where the hole would have to be made for the hookless spout to go in just under the rim.

Russ

[Fred Henderson]

OK guys we got a good idea going here. Lets just prefect it. I will call this afternoo. I did order a catalog on line from them.

[Daren]

I have been using the 2 gallon sized store brand freezer bags in my buckets for the past three years and they work very well. All you have to do is fold one edge over the side where the hole to hang the bucket is and when you place the bucket on the tap, "punch" the spout hanger through the bag as well. This will pinch the bag under the lip of the bucket (where it is lipped over the bucket rib" and hold it very nicely. When emptied, you just lift the bucket off the hanger like always and pour it out. The bag does not even have to move. When emptied, just replace the whole thing back on the hook ensuring the bag is still pinched or hooked in place in concert with the bucket. At the end of the year, just recycle the bag with your plastics and give the buckets a spritz of fresh water as a few drops of sap will at some point enter the bucket during the season. I would have to go through a ton of bags to make up for what the paint costs. Not to mention that the bags do not chip off and need to be repainted.

[Fred Henderson]

This company may have what you need. Flexible or semi-rigid FDA approved liners for pails and drums. Looks like the could make custom shapes, too.

http://www.cdf1.com/linerpro.htm#

I would not be able to buy from them. Only distrubitor's can and Uline is one of them and so is the McMatser company.

[royalmaple]

tuckermtn-

That is the size bucket I measured last night, so a 18 inch wide bag has 36 inches of material when you add up both sides, might be tight, but should work to wrap over the bucket edge.

I don't see why you'd need the extra mils since the bag is just a liner. 2 mil should be fine.

The smallest 20" bag they have which would be roughly 40 inches in diameter or slightly less when rounded open should certainly cover going over the bucket easily. Is a 20x20 and is 56 bucks plus shipping for 500 of them.

Might be safer to go a bit bigger and have pleanty to use.

You'd still have roughly 8-10 inches to wrap over the outside edge.

I was going to use double stick tape on the bottom too.

I called and the 2 mil's are 100% fda usda approved for food contact.

I got some on the way, I'll let you know how they fit.

[Fred Henderson]

I just got off the phone with a very nice person in customer service at Uline. She has a program to calulate what size liner that I need for the demisions that I gave her. She is sending 3 samples for me to try, 2 are flat and one is gusseted. She said that an 18W x 24 H has a circ of 36". I think they are coming out of Penn. so it should only be a day or 2.

[royalmaple]

I got the liners today. The one I tried is the 18x18 2 mil and they fit my buckets fine. My buckets have the following dimensions:

11 inches in diameter top, 12.5 inches tall and 9 inch diameter bottom.

I am going to have pleanty left over since they are sold in cases of 1,000. If anyone is interested let me know. By the time I get them they will be roughly 10 cents each and that is all i am interested in getting back plus whatever the shipping is to you.

[maple flats]

I'll take a hundred of them. PM me with details to ship or mail to 13421. Oneida, NY. I'll send a check right out.
Dave

[Fred Henderson]

The samples arrived today from Uline and I have decide to go with the 18 X 24, 2 mil liners. They will work better for my application. After I let I bby look them over we will decide and order. This has been a good topic for decussion and finding new ways.

[ibby458]

Time to update this thread.

I got 100 liners from Fred, and they worked well. On a few buckets, a little sap would leak out, following a fold in the plastic (Only when the bucket hung funny on the tree) We didn't keep track of which buckets we used liners in, so ended up washing all of them anyway.

It sure was nice eliminating "leakers". THe first few gathers, we checked the bottom of the buckets. Any dampness or drip, it got a liner. We kept extra liners in the truck, and had to put in a few every few gathers.

The lids clamped the bags on tight, and dumping them was no problem. (We leave the lids on when dumping) No problems with the bags falling out. When we pulled taps, the liners where stuffed into a 5 gallon gathering bucket and put in the trash at home. No real problems at all.

I'm trying to eliminate buckets, but any metal ones I use in the future will have a liner in it.

[Russell Lampron]

I used only one of the liners in a leaky bucket last season. I duct taped the bag to the bucket where the spout went through and had no problems. I would be interested in 100 of them if anyone wants to buy a large quantity and sell some.

Russ

[Fred Henderson]

I used 400 last year and until someone says that I can can no longer use my galv buckets I will not use the bags again. We found that we had to be very careful to be sure there no creases in the bags or the sap would drip on the ground. We use them for about a week until we found out what was happening. Then we pulled them and disgarded. I have a few left and will keep them for leaky bucket liner. I know that I don't have a hundred Russ, but I will check.

[sapman]

Does anyone still have more of these bags than they need? If so, and you want to sell some, I'd be interested in getting 100 or so.

Thanks,
Tim

[BuoyChaser]

I understand this is an old thread, but are the concerns of lead still a problem? We're new to sugaring and just picked up 24+ old buckets. Picked up a lead test kit from Home Depot to check a couple different styles of pails. Really like the "bag liner" concept. Has anyone tried an oversized rubber band (bungee with clamps) after the bag has been wrapped around the outside edges of the pail. Should work great, adds cost but would hold the liner in place.

[cjmiller272]

I know its old thread but maybe someones already tried. Im looking to put liners in my 5 gallon pails. I get the pails free from work and i do a drop tube through the lid. I would to know if anyone has found a liner that fits nicely in 5 gallon buckets. Also i can pull rubber seal out of lid to wrap around the liner overlap

[Maple216]

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-1011/Poly-Bags-Flat-Open/18-x-24-2-Mil-Industrial-Poly-Bags

[Michael Greer]

This may start a big fuss, but I suggest everyone look up and read an article in Mother Jones magazine, written by Mariah Blake, about BST plastic and all of the other plastics. It's a bit sobering, and has me looking at everything I produce and eat. I've decided to phase out my remaining plastic containers and switch to glass this season.

[old fashioned]

I saw this thread and was wondering if there were any updates?

[Mad Max]

I am trying to come up with a coating to coat the inside of the galvanized pails to form a permanent barrier between galvanizing and sap, Maybe epoxy such as (brew coat) or food contact approved powder coat. Plastic liners are not for me I have tried them. Any in put would appreciated Thanks

[Michael Greer]

I purchased a bucket washer this week...further investing in my collection of galvanised buckets. I am not immune to the idea that there may be a lead concern with some older buckets, but until there is a reasonable plan to replace them, these buckets will remain as a part of the industry as a whole. If i get rid of these buckets, some other small producer will hang them next year somewhere else. Perhaps there should be a "cash for clunkers" program like there was to get polluting vehicles off the road.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Yea that was a great success wasn't it. If their going to use tax dollars to upgrade your operation then the next thing Peter Gregg will want his bulk storage tanks replaced at our expense. I say its your inability to sell to the public that should be the determining factor.

[Michael Greer]

I don't have any problem selling every drop I make. The point is, if give up these buckets, they'll remain in use. Even the big maple supply catalogues are still selling used galvanised buckets. I throw away a few every year, but at this rate these buckets will still be hanging somewhere in 2050.

[DrTimPerkins]

It is unfortunate that the worst buckets for lead also "look" like the best buckets. Ternplate doesn't rust out, and the sap will leach away the thin oxidation layer that develops each year, so the insides of these high-lead buckets always tend to look nice and clean and in good shape. So people toss the galvanized buckets with just a little lead in them and keep the ternplate buckets that are loaded with lead. If you find a bucket that has the inside bottom painted, most likely it is ternplate on the bottom (slightly duller grey metal than the sides), and used since the early-1900s (when there was another "lead in maple syrup" problem). Painting was the solution back then.


Even the big maple supply catalogues are still selling used galvanised buckets.

I don't believe that is the case unless you're looking at a catalog from 25 yrs ago. You might find galvanized (lead-free galvanized at that) spouts in the catalogs, but you usually don't find galvanized buckets, and you definitely won't find used lead/galvanized buckets in the maple supply catalogs. You "might" find them out behind the store in the junk pile, but it sure isn't real common.

[prairietapper]

Dad used to spray the inside of his galvanized buckets every few years with lacquer. I was like say what! . he said. it is a approved as a coating for cutting boards in kitchens and you chop up what you are going to eat on those.
they did not rust and they stayed very dull on the inside.
when they started to flake he would hit them with sand paper and squirt a couple more layers on.
It probably was better than lead :)

[Ivyacres]

I’m sort of new here compared to many on this site. I am trying to follow this bucket conversation, but am confused by lead and no lead, galvanized and now lacquer. I live in Michigan and am very aware of the health problems lead causes not just because of what has happened in Flint, but also the lead in paint has caused Michigan to have one of the highest problems in children from that. Mr. Greer, I want to be sure I hear you correctly in that you continue to use buckets that have lead in them, because if you get rid of them, someone will reclaim them and use them? You also say that you have no trouble selling all of your syrup? Do you tell those that you are selling it to that the syrup is contaminated with lead and if their children drink it they will have brain damage? Do you allow your own children and grandchildren to partake? Is Mr. Greer a real person or am I being trolled? Is this a serious discussion in 2018? Can people really do this, knowing the problem with lead? Would this be a public relations problem if a major news organization did a story about it? Like I said, I’m kind of new here and maybe I am totally missing something?

[Michael Greer]

I am indeed a real person, and using galvanised buckets. Not terne-plate as mentioned below. The amount of lead in galvanized buckets is debatable. Some old buckets have been soldered, and that's an obvious flaw. Those buckets go straight in the recycle bin. What I'm saying, is that there are millions of these buckets in common use, and that there is no plan in place to take them out of production, and no viable replacement available for those using buckets. If I rid myself of these buckets, someone else will hang them next year, so it's not a solution to the problem. I think a buy-out program is the only solution.

[Michael Greer]

Further, I think a buy out plan is probably the ONLY solution. Our regulatory agencies have been stripped of budgets and personnel, and there is no mechanism to go out and track down all these buckets. Apparently those folks don't think this is a problem worthy of their attention.

[Haynes Forest Products]

The more I think about it the more I think its might be an option ......the buy back. Remember what happend with Cash for Clunkers every car with a title in a junk yard that ran was coming out and back in after the Government (us) doled out cash. Now you take a guy that has 500 buckets in his barn that has converted to tubing will bring them out and wont be helping the problem of current bucket use.

If there is no viable replacement as you say then how about getting the big tubing manufactures/sellers to do a rebate/discount for every bucket you get a % off your tubing purchase. Now I'm not a big "why don't WE all get together and change the world" kind of guy but if its your passion give it a try. If someone its promoting their syrup as free range No tubing or Vacuum, NOT ROed or organic then when you have to label your syrup as being collected in Galvanized buckets containing lead then things will change.

The next label we will need is one saying this product comply's with California lead standards and then you will be out.

[Michael Greer]

The guy who switched over to tubing sold his old buckets to the local dealer, who sold them to someone else. If those buckets are in storage, it's because they're waiting for a buyer.

[DrTimPerkins]

I think a buy-out program is the only solution.

Or you can do as thousands of other maple producers have done and consider replacement as a cost of doing business.

[phil-t]

Why is it, that anyone feels it's OK for the taxpayer to buy these buckets and pay to destroy them? Exactly, how much lead contamination is present in the fishished product, as a result of using old, soldered, galvanized buckets? And, what are the alternatives (other than tubing) that are "safer".

[Haynes Forest Products]

SS, Aluminum or bags :mrgreen: food grade buckets.

[Michael Greer]

Well, there are plastic bag liners...which are plastic. I saw a chart a few days ago that showed that 70% of all plastic is eventually lost into the environment. There are these new pitiful little plastic buckets which are only half big enough and again...plastic. There are aluminium buckets, which are scarcer than hen's teeth and another questionable choice. There are tree bags which look like a waste product as soon as you hang them. And of course there's tubing...miles and miles, tons and tons of plastic waste-to-be. I haven't visited a "modern" sugaring operation that didn't have a huge pile of that stuff lying behind the shed. My galvanized buckets all end up getting made into a Toyota someday when they're gone.
There could be stainless steel sap buckets, but no one's making them.

[ecolbeck]

There are quite a few unconvincing arguments on this thread. To summarize:

1. People consume lead from sources other than maple so therefore we shouldn't worry about it.
2. If a producer gets rid of their problem buckets then someone else will use them so the answer is to do nothing.
3. Alternatives to buckets have their own issues. Plastics have an environmental cost and aluminum causes Alzheimer's for those who believe in conspiracies. Therefore the answer is to do nothing.


Is this the best we can do? Lead is bad, period.

[Michael Greer]

I'll thank you not to paint me as the guy who is cool with lead. The reason i'm taking part in this thread is because I recognize the problem...and see that it's a lot bigger than my little operation. I can throw all my buckets away and go to my nearest dealer and buy that many more next week. There are millions of old buckets in use every year, and people buying and selling them right here on the Mapletrader classifieds page. I've been looking at alternatives since this discussion started, and would happily sell these buckets to anyone who wants to crush them. That person will need really deep pockets if they want to make a difference.

[ecolbeck]

4. Making changes is expensive. Therefore we do nothing.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I also hear about the environmental concerns of plastic. Well if we take that down to its final decimal point then we have to consider all factors. Lets get startred

1) How much oil does firewood consume?
2) How much oil does collecting 1000 buckets, bags hollowed out logs consume?
3) How much oil is saved by using plastic pipelines?
4) Are people considered part of the environment if so how much damage is being done to them?
5) If your so concerned about the use of plastic would it be safe to assume that you have absolutely no plastic containers, drinking cups, baby bottles, water bottles, toilet seats (food grade I hope), plastic coated paper plates, Tupper Ware, Zip-loc bags, milk jugs in your house?

I could go on and on and ON. I'm a firm believer that sometimes you have to be absurd to show absurdity. If your going to use some facts to try and condone an action then your trying to fool me and yourself.

[Clinkis]

Upgrades always cost money. I’ve been guilty as anyone for using lead soden equipment back before we knew better. But since it’s been brought to the forefront I’ve gradually worked away at getting rid of anything containing lead. Not all at once but a bit at a time as upgrades, replacements and improvements were required. Yes it cost money but in many cases it was stuff that needed replacing anyways. I see almost no galvanized pails being used in my area now a days and you certainly don’t see any for sale accept to be used as planter boxes.

[Russell Lampron]

I've got almost 150 galvanized buckets in my basement that I no longer use and have been letting them sit there while I figure out what to do with them. Sometimes I feel that I should sell them and other times I feel that I should crush them with my tractor. The right thing to do would be to crush them but they're still sitting there taking up valuable space.

[prairietapper]

I've got almost 150 galvanized buckets in my basement that I no longer use and have been letting them sit there while I figure out what to do with them. Sometimes I feel that I should sell them and other times I feel that I should crush them with my tractor. The right thing to do would be to crush them but they're still sitting there taking up valuable space.
Yeah I was tempted once to sell mine. and could not do it. I am tempted to sell some real old rusty ones for decorations. there are those in the suburbs that seem to love that kind of stuff

[DrTimPerkins]

The reason i'm taking part in this thread is because I recognize the problem...

The most appropriate response to a concern of lead in syrup is TEST YOUR SYRUP FOR LEAD. If you don't have a problem (below the action level for your area and you don't sell to a packer), you're good to go. If you do have high lead, or simply want to reduce your lead level, take correction actions.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I would take the buckets out and put a few rounds from your AK47 thru the bottoms and sell them on Craig's list for decorations. Maybe try doing 10 at a time its fun and you will be doing mankind a favor. I'm starting to believe I'm a product of to much lead consumption or was it the Beryllium, Asbestos, Murcury with a tinge of Silicosis crap I cant remember.

[HermitageMaple]

I have used buckets for this past 27 years, but here is the deal. Buckets whether Galvanized or plastic are hard to keep up with. There is more than enough work to be done without having to tend to the gather of the buckets sap. I have scaled back to less than 10 percent of my small operations sap coming from buckets (galvanized or otherwise). I figure to use "some" sap sacks & plastic buckets next season, but my money is going after expanding to more plastic tubing each year. Once the Gubmit, and/or whomever point to any equipment that "Lead" may leach into the product from I will and have, as the opportunity has arisen to, move to replace that item of equipmet. It is just good stewardship I am figurin. I have a small operation of not quite a thousand taps so my opinion is a wee one, but the thing is . . . You cant beat the Gubmit. So make i the changes as the opportunity arises, and hopes for the best. If you've read this, Thank You. . . The Bonaparte (Maple Producing) Hermit.