Smokey Lake Drop Flue

[swampyankee]

Does anyone know how to operate one of these? We bought one last year and all we accomplished was scorch a bunch of syrup.

How does the syrup migrate out of the flues into the finishing pan? Should the boil only occur in the flues and not the flat section?

Perhaps we didnt have enough bourbon....please send help.

[Schiefe4]

Perhaps we didnt have enough bourbon....please send help.

Should probably find a different hobby lol

[WESTMAPLES]

sounds expensive also ....

[fisheatingbagel]

Sounds like you didn't have enough sap. Are you set up for continuous feed? If so, a gradient will form with syrup migrating toward the draw off port. You have to be careful when drawing syrup to not let the level get too low. Also helps to let the fire die a bit before drawing, or at least move the logs towards the back of the firebox.

[swampyankee]

Back again. so much for adding humor.

A little backround: 10+ years in the game, 100+ taps, this is our second pan the first being a flat pan that boils at ~7 gal/hour.

we bought this pan for the draw off capability & additional capacity.

does anyone have photos of their drop flue in operation? This is bumming us out as we had high expectations.

[Pibster]

1068510686
Here is a picture of my Smokey lake in action (I turned the blower off and raised the hood so you could see).

[Pete S]

We have yet to fire ours BUT: Larry at Smoky Lake was talking to us and recommended that we get a sight glass. There is too much goin' awn to see when yer at full boil. Keep a MINIMUM if 1 1/2" to 2" of sap over the drop flues.

So we spent the cash and will be using the sight glass when we fire this year,................IF winter will someday knock it awf!

[swampyankee]

Thanks. This is constructive help.

[WESTMAPLES]

i don`t know much about smokey lake pans but correct me anyone if im wrong but every manufacturer built evap ive seen with drop flues is usually a continuous flow design ? pan depth and intake flow ( float box setting) are key, in the flue pan you want to make concentrated sap, not syrup. thus is why things scorched on you, i bet. see what i have learned is that depending on the size of you evap and the sugar % your boiling it takes many gallons to `sweeten the pans` and like myself at the end of a boil pour off a reasonable amount of almost syrup to finish before it cools off and the gradient becomes one. hope your luck turns out better

[swampyankee]

we went a full season last year trying just about everything stated so far:

sap level high
sap level as low as 1.5" above the flues
sweetening the pan (even using ~ 5 gallons of close to syrup from the other)
High fire
Low fire

The one thing we didnt try is reversing the pan on the arch. Our thinking was that most of our boil was happening in our finishing section and a little in the flues because the flat pan sits directly over the firebox. we were thinking the heavy boil was preventing the denser syrup from displacing the sap.

those who are using the pan - where does your boiling occur? the photo from nova scotia seemed to show boiling in the flues (let me know).

we may need to make changes to our arch based on the feedback.

[n8hutch]

Best & easiest thing you could do is find someone near you that has a drop flue evaporator and watch them run it for 4-5 hours watch a few batches get drawn off so you have a better understanding of how it should work in an ideal world. Then apply that to your operation. If that's not possible I'm sure the kind folks on here will walk you through it step by step, you might find some info in old threads if you do a search in the search bar. Good luck this season.

[asknupp]

Before I fill my pans I use tape measure and strike marks at 1.5 and 2". And then throw valve and let fill. Takes about five ten minutes and then adjust float box for 1.5" and make mental note with where my float adjustments for that are. Then take let it fill to 2 inches and make a note of float adjustments for that. Light fire and set float back for 1.5". When sap starts to get low maybe 25 gallons or so set back to 2" and stop firing. Its my security blanket because I had a hard time figuring when to stop firing and when sap supply was waning. I was running around grabbing buckets off trees and scooping logs and coals out of firebox second boil this year. Started boiling with fullpans and 40 gallons in tank. Less than an hour and I was out of sap. Sorry so long.but informational

[NW Ohio]

I assume you have some sort of head tank feeding the pan through a float box.? Is everything level? Do you "defoam" if the pan begins to foam? We can boil for several hours to start with, then draw off several pints. We do this into our test cups and check each with a hydrometer. I am so specific because I am trying to point out that we take small amounts and do that slowly. Then we may boil for quiet some time before drawing again. Our pan boils allover, both in the flue section and the syrup (flat) sections. Often even splashing up over the sides of the flue end (usually near the front where the heat first hits the flues). The syrup should move on its own and you shouldn't have to do anything to encourage it. Eventually the new sap coming in pushes the concentrated sap into the syrup pan.
If you give more details about your arch, maybe even pictures, someone here might be able to see a problem that we haven't thought of.
One more thing... ...it might not be the amount of bourbon, but the quality. Just a thought.

[Super Sapper]

You ask where it should boil, it should boil in both pans. If you are not getting a good boil in the flue pan you may have a draft issue. It may also be the amount of space under your flues. You should have a minimum of 2 feet of stack of the appropriate diameter for each foot of pan for natural draft and no more than an inch of space under the flues.

[mellondome]

Flue pan is in the back of the arch with no more than 1" space under he flues. This is where raw sap is feed. My guess is you have a 2x4 or 2x6? It will take upwards of 200 gal of sap before you draw off any syrup. ( this sweetens the pans) you want wrist size dry wood.. and add wood at regular intervals... probabaly start at 7 min and adjust as needed... keping it close the pan. Adding a blower under the grates will increade your heat output and boil rate. If you cannit get a draw the first boil or 2, be sure to plug or close valve between the flue pan and syrup pan.. to prevent the higher sugar concentrate in the front pan from diluting back down.

Find someone local that boils on fluenpans and spend an afternoon watching.

[Schiefe4]

Check the link in my signature for photos

[lpakiz]

I assume you have a drop flue rear pan and a "front" pan or flat bottom syrup pan? You cannot make syrup in a flue pan. Sap that is near or at syrup cannot take the concentrated heat of a flue pan.
That is why we send the concentrated sap up to the front pan to finish it. The flat bottom of the front pan won't allow as much heat to act on the syrup. Is this your case?

[swampyankee]

All these responses are very helpful

Yes to head tank. 275 gallon tank on the roof of my garage. My wife loves this feature.
Yes to deforming as required but it never got that dense and we ran a lot through it
Plenty of stack. About 7'
Less than 1" gas path at farthest flue bottom
Small wood and fueled appropriately

Bourbon quality varied based on enthusiasm.

Please keep the ideas coming and if someone's using one in Connecticut or Rhode Island we would love to observe

[swampyankee]

You are correct. Flat pan over firebox and flues over the ramp where the gas path narrows.

[lpakiz]

And do you have a float box, or other method to keep adding sap as the level falls due to evaporization? If so, the system should establish a gradient by itself.
Gradient means that sap is thinnest at the point of entry, and gets progressively thicker and nearer to being syrup the closer it gets to the draw-off point.

[mapledavefarm]

Does anyone know how to operate one of these? We bought one last year and all we accomplished was scorch a bunch of syrup.

How does the syrup migrate out of the flues into the finishing pan? Should the boil only occur in the flues and not the flat section?

Perhaps we didnt have enough bourbon....please send help.

Did you contact the dealer / manufacture with these questions? I have a leader evaporator and it came with very little instructions but both the dealer and Leader evaporator bent over backwards to help me get started. I have had no issues thanks to leader evaporator.

[swampyankee]

yes to float box

Im looking for pictures

[Sugarmaker]

we went a full season last year trying just about everything stated so far:

sap level high
sap level as low as 1.5" above the flues
sweetening the pan (even using ~ 5 gallons of close to syrup from the other)
High fire
Low fire

The one thing we didnt try is reversing the pan on the arch. Our thinking was that most of our boil was happening in our finishing section and a little in the flues because the flat pan sits directly over the firebox. we were thinking the heavy boil was preventing the denser syrup from displacing the sap.

those who are using the pan - where does your boiling occur? the photo from nova scotia seemed to show boiling in the flues (let me know).

we may need to make changes to our arch based on the feedback.

Hi,
After reading your posts, I would suggest you take 15 minutes and take several pictures from various locations showing the arch and pans.
There should be no reason that you should scorch any syrup in any set of pans, unless you run out of sap!
Sounds like you know what finished syrup is since you have been making it for years in a smaller and or flat pan.
I am not sure why, but get the feeling your trying to make syrup in the flue pan??? The syrup should be made in the flat pan portion of the rig. The flues should be at the back evaporator. Your 1 to 1.5 inch depth sounds good. Head tank sounds good. What are you using to check temp?
Many folks on here are running these types of rigs so we can help you better understand the function of your evaporator.
Regards,
Chris

[mrdibs]

Hi, I'm swampyankee's sugaring partner. He sort of misspoke when he said we "scorched" syrup. Nothing was scorched, we ended up with several gallons of cooking grade syrup which apparently never made it out of the flue section. We had a raging boil in the flue section, a little less in the syrup pan. We constantly monitored the syrup pan with a hydrometer but rarely got anything approaching syrup. Our hottest fire was right at the junction of the fluepan and syrup pan. I'm wondering if the intensity of the boil prevented the gradient from flowing into the syrup pan. I've attached a photo of our rigs (new and old).

[kiteflyingeek]

...
Plenty of stack. About 7'
...


7 feet of stack is good for a 2x3 pan. If you are running a 2x4 or 2x6, then you are kinda short. Rule of thumb for draft arches is 2x the length of the pans. So, that would be 8' or 12' depending on what your pan sizes are. Diameter of the stack pipe matters too. I'm running a 10" stack on my 2x6.5 Smoky Lake Drop Flue and I have no issues with draw. It is 15' on top of the 3' stack base.

Let me know if you have more questions.

--andrew

[swampyankee]

Understood on the stack and thanks for the helpful advice.

any others?

[buckeye gold]

I run a smokey lake hybrid flue pan and I sometimes get too high of concentrate in my flue pan because it's sat a day or too and mixed. what I do is start the fire and let it come to a full boil then I adjust the float to allow the sap level to raise, say a half inch, and that will push your near syrup forward. What you do then is pull a draw and while it's drawing adjust the level back down to desired running depth. You can either finish the draw off the evaporator or slowly over the run add it back to your syrup pan. Personally I finish it off on propane. I actually like to take draws at 217-218 and finish on propane. It does seem like you have to wait a good while for those last two degrees and it will back up into the flues. when this happens just adjust your level up like a 1/4 inch and prepare to draw. I run at 3/4 to an inch and that gives me wiggle room. That's why you always have an eye on your pans. These pans that are all one unit from flue pan to syrup pans do act different than the rigs with separated pans, but they still work quite well. I had to learn the nuances of how it works, but once I did I fly right through the sap.

[NW Ohio]

Did you contact the dealer / manufacture with these questions? I have a leader evaporator and it came with very little instructions but both the dealer and Leader evaporator bent over backwards to help me get started. I have had no issues thanks to leader evaporator.

Sounds like mapledave may have purchased the full setup (arch and pan), which would likely make trouble shooting easier for the manufacturer.
I don't think the manufactured pan is the issue here since lots of us are using the same pan to make syrup. I would say that the issue is in "tuning" the homemade arch. If you think there is an issue with the pan I am sure you could talk to Jim at Smoky Lake, he was very helpful when we bought our pan.

[asknupp]

If that is just a flue pan by itself on arch to the left there's no wonder your having problems. And I don't see float box either.

[mrdibs]

As previously stated, we run a Smokey Lake Hybrid pan with drop flues, syrup pan and float box. Thank you buckeye gold, we're going to try your suggestions, if the season ever starts. The pan itself is a work of art and boils like crazy. I guess there's more of a learning curve than we expected and/or we're not quite as clever as we like to think we are. Thanks to all for your replies. 10690

[killingworthmaple]

I have a smokey lake pan and love it. I have a couple of suggestions 1 pick up the phone and call smokey lake I have talked to the owner serveral times and he is very helpful. It could be you are making syrup in the center compartment and not at the draw off. My pan boils so hard that the sap is jumping out of the 20 inch sides on my raised flue so if something goes wrong you don't have much time before your out of sap in the front pan so I boil 2-3 inches deep.

Nathan

[buckeye gold]

Mr. Dibs, I looked at your picture and it looks like the sap runs striaght into the flues, is that right. There is no back section for sap distribution? If so you may be able to improve your gradient hold by adding a partition about a third way through your flue section. I'd call Jim and ask him about it, he usually willing to help. Jim or any good shop could make you one that you could just set in place. It wouldn't be like a built in but it would help maintaining gradient. That is the way mine was built and I know Jim done it for some others. That is part of these all in one pans, they work a little different. I used to run a flat pan and the gradient ran great all the time, but I think the flues in these hybrid pans slow the sap up just enough that it concentrates more in the flue section. I struggled with finishing in my front sections all last season, but I got it figured out and so will you. How you fire that baby makes a difference too. I personally push my coals back and keep my new wood forward, but I really don't have a feel if that makes a big difference. When I'm ready to draw I let her burn a little longer without adding new wood so the syrup section finishes more. However, I keep a close eye on the thermometer and soon as I lose a degree I'm drawing. I hope this doesn't just confuse you. I think the biggest thing you can do is take more draws, even if it means finishing on another unit.

[Sugarmaker]

As previously stated, we run a Smokey Lake Hybrid pan with drop flues, syrup pan and float box. Thank you buckeye gold, we're going to try your suggestions, if the season ever starts. The pan itself is a work of art and boils like crazy. I guess there's more of a learning curve than we expected and/or we're not quite as clever as we like to think we are. Thanks to all for your replies. 10690

Mrdibs,
Thanks for the pictures. That helps. looks like a pretty good set up you have I think buckeyegold has the correct approach and he has the experience on similar pans. Sounds like its a gradient problem and adding additional fresh sap will help move that almost syrup towards the front. Sounds like 1 inch depth may be about right for you to boil.
There is a chance that moving your pans back on the arch and putting the dead space at the front might help put more heat on the front pan?
Looks like you guys have a real good handle on making syrup. Each and every evaporator runs different. The tank on the roof looks good too.
Don't forget that last year we made lots and lots of dark syrup! Glad you did not burn the new pans:)
Regards,
Chris

[Pibster]

where does your boiling occur? the photo from nova scotia seemed to show boiling in the flues (let me know).


The sap is really jumping in the flue area and more of a rolling boil in the front pan.

[buckeye gold]

Sugarmaker may have a good point. I do have a dead space after rebuilding my arch and I left it at the front like he says. That could make a difference, I know my boil is better in the front since I done this, but I still see the sweet backing up some. I once new a top notch scientist that said the best scientist he ever knew where the ones who could apply their science to the art of what they wanted to build. With that said there is science to why your pans work the way they do, but you'll get the most out of them when you learn the art of boiling. As with a lot of art, what things look like can be different than what they actually are, so the artistic scientist learns to remove the illusion that pure science sometimes creates and sees the art of making what he wants.

Occams Razor:

The principle states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but—in the absence of certainty—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better.

[Maple Hill]

I had a similar experience when I changed over to cross flow pans.A D&G rep told me that I did not have enough fire under the front pan which I suspected was part of the problem.If you start to get syrup anywhere but the front pan you have to start drawing off to move the syrup to the front especially on the first draw. He also said that some new evaporators were being built with a dead space in the front to get more fire under the front pan so maybe you could move your pan back as was suggested and have a dead space in the front.Hope this helps and good luck.

[killingworthmaple]

I think Buckeye is on the right track also. I had a similar set up and put a divider in the back pan worked better that way. I also pushed my pan back to get more heat in the front which helped the front compartment to boil real good pulling the sap forward better.

Nathan