Building an Arch within an Arch

[GlennC-B]

I have only boiled sap on a block arch before but recently inherited a old sugar orchard and decided to make the leap to evaporating with a continuous flow flat pans. The pans that are currently in the sugarshack are quite a bit larger than I am comfortable using or capable of filling with sap for at least a few years. However, rather than try to remove a nice 5'x12' arch from the sugarshack, I am thinking of building a smaller arch to fit the new pans within the old rig.

Is there anything I should be wary of or consider for this?

The main things that I can think of are: making sure the new frame is level, making sure the fixings for the draw off clear the lip of the old arch walls with valve close to the pan, and looking out for places where heat might escape.

Thanks in advance for any advice given. I imagine that once I get to rebricking the arch I will be back for more help...:)

[Ghs57]

Any pictures? I'm all for giving it a try. I would scale the bigger arch design down to the size you need inside the bigger arch. Might br tricky around the doors and flue pipe though.

[GlennC-B]

I will try to get some photos of the arch up tomorrow. I might also try to get a sketch of the plans up although I probably won't be able to get to welding the frame until next weekend so there is plenty of time for fiddling with them.

[markct]

Why not use just the front pan and put a steel plate over back section to block it off?

[GlennC-B]

Thanks of the suggestion. Part of the reason I wanted to keep the old arch is to allow for this possibility. However, the old front pan needs a lot of work. The biggest thing is that it is lead soldered but it also looks like the last person who used it either burnt his last batch or left his sweet in it for a few years until it became a molasses-like mess. The thing is copper so I have put it away to see if it can be salvaged at some point.

Question though, if something has had solder in it at all will the lead contaminate the whole pan? Or would removing the solder and burnishing the other metal remove the lead? Or would this all be too risky give the potential for creating hot spots?

[TerryEspo]

That is a great video Glen !!

Thanks for sharing.

Terry

[GlennC-B]

Ok so here are a couple photos of the front of the arch, (haven't been able to move the flue pan out yet). It would be nice to follow the old design, which should involve just rebuilding the slope forward a foot. Though the potential issue I saw today confirming Ghs57's thought was with the doors, which are about eight inches wider than the 24" pans would be. If there is a 1/2inch gap between the bricks and the doors, will I be losing a substantial amount of heat?

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(Pan in photo is not the same length as the new one will be but it is the right width compared to the doors)

Also realized that the float box between the pans might get more heat than usual. Will this extra heat cause problems with creating a more concentrated gradient in the box than the syrup pan it feeds?

Thank you Terry for checking out the Kickstarter for the sugar orchard. I will keep it updated for the progress on the arch and in general.

[Sugarmaker]

Glenn,
Awesome viedo work. I have no sound on my little lap top but I could see the history, the nostalgia, and family, the boiling, and the good times that must have happened in that sugarhouse!
That arch may be way bigger that you need right now. But for the condition its in I would not change it for a while. I understand you want to use it with smaller pans. That may work but also may be more work than just setting a small rig next to it. Maybe a barrell arch?
I see tubing in the woods. Was someone renting this wood lot? How many taps are available?
I have not seen your new pan system. So I cant say much about putting it on to old arch. But ounds like a lot of the arch would not be used and might waste a lot of heat. Unless you could block off some of the arch and run a new smoke stack?
Yes that old arch is a little big by today's standards, but is in excellent shape in the firebox and grates! WOW!
I have a King arch (3 x 10) so I can relate.
Regards,
Chris

[GlennC-B]

Chris,
Thanks for comments on the video. The sugarbush is about 8 acres of Sugar Maples (with some beech and ash interspersed) and holds a lot of fond memories for me and my family. We recently came into stewardship of it when the previous owner passed away and left it to us knowing that we would sugar and ensure the woods would not be developed (we are relatively close to a major ski resort so land is often cut for second/third homes or condos).

The lines were his, but he never cleaned them and the squirrels have the main pipelines, so I took them down. Perhaps in a couple years I can get some back up as I think he had about 1500 taps. While a lot for me now, keeping the old arch would allow me to work back up to utilizing more of it.

This year I will be running a two 2x4 flat pans, so unless I use the old arch I don't know how I will be able to fit in the shack :(. If I do stick a new arch in the older one, I will make sure that it can be installed and removed without damaging the old rig. The primary building waste I think will be with the new fire box bricking which would be removed if I expand again. Can fire bricks be reused (as long as they as not water damaged or cracked)?

I was thinking of welding a new steel skeleton frame to support the pans and funnel heat through to the old stack. The fire box would be bricked with cement, but the rest covered with 22 gauge sheet. If I was careful to cover any gaps with the sheet steel, would it still be losing a lot of heat? Would one layer of sheet be enough for the flue or are more needed?

These are the new pans I was planning on using this year. Front pan on the right
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(sorry for some reason the image is coming in upside down....)

[Sugarmaker]

Glenn,
Maybe someone else will chime in. I would leave the old arch alone for now. I dont think you would have any more work in making a new arch using a 275 gallon oil barrel.
Yes fire brick can be reused, much easier if you just dry stack it rather than mortaring the brick.
I think 22 gauge will warp really bad from the heat, and your sap and syrup pans may not boil very good??
With the potential of 1500 taps you have a couple future options. Get new pans for the old arch and boil like crazy, Get an new smaller evaporator and a R.O. to save labor and fuel.
I would recommend the latter but it sure would be neat to see the old arch pumping out steam!:) You might have as much in big pans as in a brand new smaller more efficient arch and a R.O.???
I might sheet the top of the old arch with water proof 3/4 inch plywood and have a real nice work surface while your in the sugarhouse.

Maybe this approach?
Ok thinking along the lines of using the arch. I would do this.
Place a angle iron 2-1/2 x 2-1/2 x 5/16 thick across the arch at the 2 foot mark
Remove a grate at the 2 foot mark from the front. place a piece of your 22 guage steel custom cut to match the shape of the inside of the old arch vertical from the floor of the arch to the new angle iron. Attach it to the angle iron rail. Use full fire brick dry stacked to insulate the 22 guage new steel at least from the grate to under the rail.
You now have a fire box that will hold the heat under the pan.
Your pan is 4 feet long. your arch is 5 feet.
Position the pan on the arch to take advantage of the float box and draw off features.
So make a 1/2 inch plate 2 feet wide x 1 foot long with a 8 inch hole and a flange to support the stove pipe. Bolt this to the new angle iron to keep in place.
at the right or left end of the pan where this plate sets on the old arch near the front, run a 8 inch stove pipe through and new hole insulated in the roof.
Ok now fire the arch through one or both of the of the existing doors.
This may seem a little strange, but Sunrise is making a arch with side wood loading.
Your in business and should be able to make syrup. Total cost under $150.00
Regards,
Chris

[GlennC-B]

Ok, Well I am a bit of a romantic and would prefer to go the route of more work in order to have a fire in the belly of the old rig, than get a new set up. After looking over the arch in relation to my new pans and tank, I will try to go along the lines of what you recommended Chris and see how it goes. (A silver lining with this cold weather is extra time to work on this). I will let you know how it goes! Thanks for the advice.

[Sugarmaker]

Glenn,
Good luck, take some pictures as you mock up the pan on the arch. The more I think about it the more I think the pan sideways on the front of the arch will work.
Regards,
Chris

[Sugarmaker]

Glenn,
Have you come up with a plan?
Regards,
Chris

[beaglebriar]

Why not just plate the top of the old arch add a few supports underneath to handle the weight and limit the amount of warpage and possibly some ceramic board or blanket under plates to handle heat as well. Center up the opening for the new pans and draw off the front. Center your fire under the new pans as much as possible. I gotta believe you will get a good boil. You will probably use some extra wood but who cares? That old arch is bad a$$ by the way!

[chad]

I think Chris has the best idea yet, I to am using a an arch that was designed to bee 4x12 but am only cooking on the finishing pan what I did was I removed the flue pan and built a new end and stove pipe adapter but kept it all "loose" so to say so I can go back to the big evaporator when I am more comfortable and have more help (kids)

[GlennC-B]

Ok folks, I am terribly sorry for the delayed reply, but things were pushed back a little here and a little there. Chris I really thought about how to execute your suggestion but was running into some problems with the stove pipe so decided a slightly less practical route but one that seems to maintain the old character of this ol' faithful. As you can see from the photos, I essentially just copied the layout of the original bricking inside. Part of this was made possible with a third preheater pan I got made by the fine folks at Murphy's metals. The front two pans I leveled with some frames I slapped together with thread stock on the legs so that I could adjust things until it was ready to be bricked and then used this as a frame work for the masonry.

The draw off is not on the ideal side, so I might see if I can't figure out how to get things switched around in the summer. Next steps would be placing metal sheets over the gaps in the arch to cut draft and really make it look spiffy. That and getting enough sap to feed the beast...unfortunately things are still pretty frozen here and I am running buckets this year so I might not be able to run it as much as I would like.

On the note, how much sap would a 2x12 evap take for sweetening the pans? I have been trying to wade through the many formulas given in the forum and can't seem to get a straight answer or calculator that works...11078
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(Sorry once again for the photos, I can't seem to figure out how to get them rotated correctly. I will post more when we get it boiling with right orientation. )

[Sugarmaker]

Glenn,
You have been very busy. No problem with your work! It looks great. You might be the first with a arch within a arch system?
You could form some sheet steel over the old arch to the new one and have a good work surface each side???
You did good.
Its going to take all the sap to sweeten the pans:) Dont sweat the small stuff. Get the sap coming, boil until you have maybe 50 gallons left in the head tank and then dont fire any more. Get more sap and start up again. Repeat till you have syrup!
Nice work saving this history!
Regards,
Chris

[GlennC-B]

Thanks again for all of the advice Chris. I will let you know when I am finally able to draw off syrup :)