CV2 spouts breaking

[AdirondackSap]

Well i never had this problem last year with the cv2 spouts but i had roughly 25 spouts snap when tapping them into the tree. They break off and you cant pull them out. Did leader swith to a cheaper material to make these? You think with how much these spouts are they wouldnt break on you, Also since i cant pull the broken spouts out will they damage the tree or will the tree just grow around them? I ended up drilling a new hole and adding a new spout but will the broken tap effect my sap yield from that tree bc sap will be flowing out of the broken tap onto the ground? Im not impressed with how easily these taps break and im using a tapping hammer meant for maple its frustarting to spend all this money on a tap that breaks and damages my trees and investment any thoughts?

[AdirondackSap]

I have also been getting spouts with the ball missing inside of them atleast 5 out of 100 its so irritating to spend money on a product that doesnt deliver i will be bringing each spout back to leader the broken ones and the ones without the balls and ask what is up. I am not impressed i would rather have last years batch when they were made by hand.

[markct]

Whats the advantage to the cv2? i mean to me I just see that they are not as easy to install as original adaptors or check valves were, and cost even more than the orig check valves. Not trying to bash them just don't see why they had a good thing and tried to overcomplicate it atleast it appears that way on the surface. I been having great luck with the orig 2009 batch check valves as well as the later ones of same design

[AdirondackSap]

I really didnt care for the two piece check valve. actually cost more money bc you had to buy the stubby and then the adapter on top of that. With the new check valves they are clear and you can see the sap flowing out of them. the first year they produced the cv2 they had to insert the ball by hand and now they have a machine that does it for them. I think that could be the culprit on why some of the balls are missing machine error or maybe some of the clear spouts got into the batch of cv2 idk. I like the fact its alittle quicker to install only 1 piece instead of 2 but they seem to break alot easier. Also with the black cv warmed up quicker because they are black making it a breeding ground for bacteria to build up alot quicker than the clear ones. I just think they started using a cheaper plastic or something because the taps should not be snapping when you tap them into the tree. I like the way the cv2 sits in the tap never had a leak i have used the cdl smart spout and had problems with leaks and popping out of the tap hole when it got real cold. I just dont know how they can justify 40 cents a per spout when they have so many issues. They claim to be the best spout out there then why are they breaking and getting alot of them with no balls inside them. Do you think the ones that snapped and cant get out of the tree going to kill my maple or will it just grow inside of it?

[adk1]

No it will not kill your maple tree, it will geow around it. It will take longer but it will. No way of using a nail or something like that to get it out?maybe reverse a drill it or something?

[markct]

But you only buy the stubby once. After that its cheaper taps. Altho I agree that the clear color is nice, I like my clear cdl spouts on gravity that show the sap in them and just seem cleaner. I wish they would make the cv1 in clear doesn't seem like it could be too hard

[psparr]

You can use a coarse #12 or so screw to get the tap out. Just screw it in a little and pry it out like you would normally. Last year I had a few of the non check valve ones break when putting them in, so not sure if it's the ball injector or not.

[Russell Lampron]

It could be that the cv2's that are breaking are ones that were manufactured at the end of last season. As plastic ages it gets brittle and they could be breaking because of that. Couldn't you get the broken tap out by drilling it?

[markct]

Usualy plastic gets stronger as it ages unless exposed to uv. Leader had many taps break originaly from not enough cure time

[spud]

I have 3000 trees tapped so far this year and only one CV2 spout has broke. If one breaks in the tree just drill it out and put another one in. I have done this before and never had a leaky tap hole. The CV2 spouts are far better then the original. Being a clear one piece allows you to not only see sap flowing but also notice mico leaks (why reseat a spout if you don't have too). Also being one piece cuts down on possible leaks. As far as putting these spouts on the drops my 12 year old slides them right on. I use a 20 ounce framing hammer and it works great. You just have to have a good feel for it when you hit the spout. I think tapping hammers and precision drills are a joke. Hit your spout (square) and it will not break.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

Several thoughts (some of which have already been suggested):

- plastic typically is less brittle as it ages (to a point, unless it is really old and exposed to the sun). They are quite brittle for a while immediately after being molded until they pick up enough moisture from the air to fully cure.
- polycarbonate (clear) fittings are much less forgiving of shear stress (not hit squarely or when stressed at an angle), which is why you see polycarbonate line tension fittings or tees breaking more frequently. Nylon will just deform a bit as stress is applied. Polycarbonate will tend to crack or shear off.
- if the spouts break off, drill them out if possible. If you don't like that, drill another hole some distance away from the first. The first hole will run some though.
- if you don't drill them out, leaving the plastic tip (or the tip/ball) won't hurt the tree at all.
- try using a different hammer

The advantages of polycarbonate are:
- people like to be able to see the sap run through them
- it is easier to spot microleaks (although not all bubbles moving through the spout are leaks....the slow tiny bubbles are gases from the tree)
- polycarbonate seems to "stick" in the tree better, and thus not require reseating as much as nylon spouts do
- polycarbonate spouts heat up less than black nylon spouts, and may run a little longer in some (hot sunny) seasons than black spouts

I have no idea whether Leader Evaporator plans to produce a polycarbonate CV adapter for the stubby system. I know it has been asked for, and discussed. In general it seems like if enough customers demand something, then the companies react (that is why there is a CV2). Unfortunately it isn't as simple as just using the same mold for nylon (the black CV adapter) or polycarbonate because of different shrinkage coefficients from the two materials. Originally when the CV adapter was first produced, there were some test pieces run in polycarbonate just so people could see how the ball valve worked. These were never intended to be used for sap collection.

We put about 3,500 of the CV2 in our woods last year, had about 5-10 breaks. Of the three tappers, I think 1 broke 1-2 and all the others were from 1 other tapper, but he also tends to break more of any type of spouts than the others do. I really think it is the shape and weight of the hammer head and how you hit them that seems to matter more. I tried to get him to change hammers, but that was like pulling teeth. His hammer has a more rounded face. I personally put in about 100 CV2s for research and had 1 break, but I also had 4 (total) of 2 other manufacturers polycarbonate spouts break out of 50 I put in.

[WESTMAPLES]

im only into my 3rd year with tubing, and i used tree saver spouts my first year, then went with the cv2`s last year ( and had great success with installion, removal and luckily no pin hole leakers) so i plan on using them again ive seen lots of the stubby cv1 styles in others operations and they like them because that was cutting edge tap technology when they where up and coming. i think it mostly depends on what a person likes to work with or is used to really. theres a few operations in my area that still put out 500 plus buckets because they haven`t worn them out or damaged them enough to warrant replace with tubing, because they are durable and take a beating with a hammer season after season . i think its just like 2 stroke oil everybody has there likes and dislikes for one reason or another, even tho they are all made for the same purpose.

[Daveg]

As plastic ages it gets brittle and they could be breaking because of that.
- plastic typically is less brittle as it ages (to a point, unless it is really old and exposed to the sun). They are quite brittle for a while immediately after being molded until they pick up enough moisture from the air to fully cure.
Seems to be some conflicting info on MT on the subject of brittleness.

[DrTimPerkins]

Seems to be some conflicting info on MT on the subject of brittleness.

Not really. Basically the brittleness of plastics varies considerably over the lifetime of a part. It starts out very brittle immediately after molding, then as it takes up moisture from the air it cures and becomes less brittle. It will remain in a reasonable state for a while, but depending upon age, use, and exposure, it will start to get more brittle again. Any polycarbonate spout you bought within the past year or two would not have aged to the point where it is brittle again unless you'd left it outside for a year or more in the woods.

[PATheron]

I use all clear checkvalves and Ive had a handful break out of 8000 so far. Usually I break the head of them off. I actually use a set of nine inch linemans pliars as my hammer and I just take them and use the cutting part of them and pry the part in the tree out and pound a new one in. I haven't yet found one without a ball. Id say Ive broke 20 of them maybe out of 8000. I think that's pretty good quality to have that few break out of that many of anything. Maybe some people are getting bad batches or something. I like the pliars because I can cut in a pinch with them and fit in pocket nice. Used same taps last year and had real good luck too. No real problems at all. Theron

[Russell Lampron]

I put in 100 of them last season and liked them. I bought 700 more for this season. I didn't have any break last season we'll see how this season goes.