questions on 250 tap tubing install

[S&STappers]

Settting up a 250 tap tubing system on a ridge. Ridge is 400 feet long and about 300 feet from top to bottom. My plan is 2 3/4" mains 200 feet apart running vertical down the ridge to a releaser in the bottom corner. Does this sound correct? Should I tie the mains directly to the releaser or run like a 1" main at the bottom parallel to ridge and tie the 3/4" into it? Also planned on doing a dry line. This will be part of a larger system in the future, but future line will run directly to the releaser. So this 250 tap area won't be expanded. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

[BreezyHill]

Consider running the 3/4" lateral lines closer together to reduce the length of runs of the 5/16 tubing from the taps to the lateral. The added cost of the extra tubing of 3/4 is usually paid for and then some by using less of the 5/16 tubing.

You could also consider using 3/16 if after the last tap you have 30' of elevation change.

To reduce turbulence at the mains connection run the lateral lines of 3/4 along the slope at a 2% or upto 6% slope toward the releaser.

For best vacuum transfer you want to run the 5/16 tubing less than 75' or even as little as 65' from the mains with not over 5 taps on each, less is better.

Good Luck

Ben

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Sounds similar to mine, that is 450 across and just 200 uphill and steep. I will have 200-225 taps. My releaser will be near mid point, and I used four verticals, with three 3/4" lines that will go into a manifold with a 1" outlet. Configured like this... One straight down, one across and turns uphill, and another across the other way that has a Y to a vertical, and continues across and curves uphill. It took all of 1000' of tubing, and I am picking up another 100' Monday to extend one up another 30-40 feet.

Eric

[Russell Lampron]

I would run the mains horizontally across the face of the ridge and connect them directly to the releaser. I would also space them about 75' apart and run the laterals down to them. With that many taps you shouldn't need a dry line. With that much slope you should be able to get enough pitch on the mains for good vacuum transfer.

[S&STappers]

Thanks for the input. Never considered turbulence issues into the mix. Changing to horizontal runs on a 6% slope. 75' apart or a little better should work well as I'm sure I can pick up 10-15' of trees on the downward side of my mainline. Time to get some wire strung and an accurate tap count as my nearest supplier is 3 hours away. He's a CDL dealer so thats what I'll be using. One other thing, do you usually use the tension springs on your high tensile wire. Seemed like a good way to judge wire tension as 1" of compression equals 150lbs of pull

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

My opinion: tension spring is for fences not sap production!

[red maples]

yeah don;t use anything with a spring. Ratchet tensioners are the way to go. you have to remember the tube is light now but once you get some sap running in there its gonna sag and even though you got good pitch a sag is a sag. besides I think they are cheaper than the spring tensioners at $3.50 a piece or something like that!!!

[lpakiz]

And I didn't use anything. Just strung the wire, anchored the ends with lag hooks in the end trees, and side-tied it. Start with the biggest deflections first, as tight as you can get it. Then move to the shallower deflections. You can get it scary-tight.

[DoubleBrookMaple]

Thanks for the input. Never considered turbulence issues into the mix. Turbulance is a consideration, but under the classification of "minor loss" according to UVM's Tim Perkins "Dynamics of Vacuum and Sap Flow" publication you can glance at here... http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/SapVac.pdf
I decided to basically ignor turbulance myself, but kept my transitions from downhill into my horizontal mainline a gradual curve. With only 50-75 taps into each 3/4" line there is plenty of room for vacuum regardless of sap flow turbulance I think.

[Russell Lampron]

I use ratchets on the mainline wire and tension grips on the mainline itself.

[S&STappers]

Ok, no springs. They were $9 a piece anyway. I'll keep the ratchets though. Since we're on the wire subject, whats everyones favorite way to secure the ends to a tree. At first i didnt like the idea of screwing anything into the tree, but now seems alot quicker than wrapping it with something, i.e. wood blocks and wire. Same thing for making a direction change too then I would assume, screw in an insulator or hook?

[Russell Lampron]

I screw hooks into the end trees. I try to find a non species tree so that I'm not damaging a crop tree. I never liked the idea of wrapping the wire around the tree and putting wood blocks in between the wire and tree. It seems like less damage is done to the tree with the hooks. For side ties I use a lighter gauge wire. I feed the wire through a piece of 5/16" tubing and loop that around a tree with each end of the tie back wire tied to the mainline wire.

[S&STappers]

Thanks much for the info. Thats exactly how mine will be done. Found some older threads with same design info too.

[VT_K9]

The mention of 5 taps is a good goal. I re-ran our sap lines last year to keep with the vacuum goal of strive for 5 and no more than 7 taps. Well some had 3 and just a few had 9 on them. Also the goal was to keep runs close to 50 feet, but not more than 75 feet. Slope was not a major issue. We used a 1" mainline with 3/4" lateral mainlines. The idea was to give an area in a small sag where fresh sap and continue to flow until the ice thaws. It worked well with a puller and this year we will have full vacuum.

As far as securing the wire to a tree we are not so well off here. On one end we run the wire through a piece of plastic tubing, aroudn the tree and wrap it around itself. This is our second year doing this and I will be watching the trees for signs of any issues. I plan to place boards between the tubing and tree when I see slight signs of problems or if I have a summer with little to do. On the other end we use a chain and hook forged turn buckles up to the chain and wire. This seems okay for the time being. I am not sure if the turn buckles or the smaller ratches have a higher working load. I have tightened the turn buckles once since putting them up back in December. I have two runs where I will have to side tire the wire to avoid sags. I may also place a tripod over the line to hold the line up, but that is for a summer project too.

My concern with running a screw eye into a tree is... how long before it is pulled out? Not having any experience with this theory, I hear a lot of people doing it. My only non species of abundance is the Hemlock.

Mike

[BreezyHill]

My concern with running a screw eye into a tree is... how long before it is pulled out? Not having any experience with this theory, I hear a lot of people doing it. My only non species of abundance is the Hemlock.

Mike

In my 25 plus years as a high tensile installer, user, and dealer I have only heard of one pull ot and it was on a tree that was to small to have been used. The tree split in two and died and the J hook pulled out a few years later. Tree was only 4" around. Had a three wire fence so three hooks in it in a line.

I have several old trees with wire sticking out from where the tree grew around the tree. Planned on turning them out but didn't remember to do that.

When you see the damage, the tree will be dead. First thing is the leaves on the one side turn brown or color early the next year the tree is dead or maybe the year after. Just this season I have installed nearly 20 J hooks. On the farm we likely have over 150 between fences and sap lines. Only had one break and have one I will have to change as the tractor slide on the ice and the bucket bent it. I have them in Beach to Willow, Oak drives the worst followed by hickory.

[VT_K9]

In my 25 plus years as a high tensile installer, user, and dealer I have only heard of one pull ot and it was on a tree that was to small to have been used. The tree split in two and died and the J hook pulled out a few years later. Tree was only 4" around. Had a three wire fence so three hooks in it in a line.

I have several old trees with wire sticking out from where the tree grew around the tree. Planned on turning them out but didn't remember to do that.

When you see the damage, the tree will be dead. First thing is the leaves on the one side turn brown or color early the next year the tree is dead or maybe the year after. Just this season I have installed nearly 20 J hooks. On the farm we likely have over 150 between fences and sap lines. Only had one break and have one I will have to change as the tractor slide on the ice and the bucket bent it. I have them in Beach to Willow, Oak drives the worst followed by hickory.

Great to hear the history. I may have to give it a try if I can find the right trees. I don't mind keeping one or two hemlocks, but anything other than Maple is hard to come by in the maple orchard areas. We have a couple of Red Oaks, some White Birch, a few Cherry, and a few Ash around, but nothing I could plan on being in the right spot. Hemlock is abundant. I use it in my outdoor furnace on warmer days or when I am home to fill it more often. We used Hemlock to build our sap shack in the woods. I plan on building a garage with it in the future.

Thanks,

Mike

[Russell Lampron]

Great to hear the history. I may have to give it a try if I can find the right trees. I don't mind keeping one or two hemlocks, but anything other than Maple is hard to come by in the maple orchard areas. We have a couple of Red Oaks, some White Birch, a few Cherry, and a few Ash around, but nothing I could plan on being in the right spot. Hemlock is abundant. I use it in my outdoor furnace on warmer days or when I am home to fill it more often. We used Hemlock to build our sap shack in the woods. I plan on building a garage with it in the future.

Thanks,

Mike

I too have an outdoor wood boiler and burn pine, hemlock and spruce year round. I heat 2 houses and my sugar house with it and the soft woods work well. They don't last quite as long as hardwoods do but I don't have the firebox get filled 1/2 way up with coals either. As far as end trees go, go ahead and use the hemlocks. You'll straighten the hook before you ever pull it out.

[VT_K9]

The outdoor furnace has made a world of difference in heating my log home. It is sized to be able to heat the garage I am looking to build. During the colder days/nights I use hardwood.

What type of hook are you using? I spoke with my Father who works at a hardware store and said most eyes and hooks are not rated for the tension we would be putting on them. We have been using a come-a-long to get most of the tension and then putting a forged turnbuckle in place and turing it until it releases the tension on the come-a-long. We have a couple more short runs to put up and I am willing to give a hook a try as I think it will be a time saver and simpler.

Sorry for the hi-jack, but maybe this is relavent to the original posting.

Thanks,

Mike

[Russell Lampron]

I'm using 3/8" cloths line hooks and haven't had any problems. I tighten the wire as much as I can with the electric fence ratchets and then get more tension on it with side ties once the mainline is tied onto the wire. I would think that using a come a long would put too much tension on the wire and break it. I do see producers around here using them though.

[VT_K9]

We have not broken a wire yet (knocking on wood now). We have also used the grippers without and failures. The last short run we have wont allow for side ties and it is only about 75 feet. I will look at the hooks I have access to and give a shot...sometimes that is the only way to truly learn.

Mike

[S&STappers]

All my "end trees" ended up in the right place today, courtesy of the auger on my skidsteer and some railroad ties.

[maple flats]

Great way to anchor the lines. AS for laterals (the 5/16), while many of us run most going uphill and an occasional one going a short distance in the other direction with proper slope to the mainline, you are by far better off only going off the uphill direction. That way checking for leaks is way faster. With your mains 75' apart, just run uphill and none downhill. On mine the only time I reach downhill is if a tap size tree is within 2-3' or so from the main. In that case I have the lateral run from the uphill with 2,3 or 4 tap, then pass over the main, wrap around the nearby but downhill tree and then connect to the mainline. All others only go uphill on all I've run in about the last 6 yrs., before that I wend both directions and wasted time checking for leaks. If going on one side only, many times you can either use an ATV or snowmobile to make it faster when terrain permits.

[S&STappers]

Thanks for the great advice Dave, I'm sure I'll have more questions for you at some point seeing as I have about the same # of potential taps as you're running. Doing some final brushing, I see only 4 or 5 trees on the downhill side of the mains that I would pick up, and they're either touching the wire or within 3'. Hadn't thought about connecting them to the uphill lateral either, probably would have wasted a saddle or 2. Another question, I have maples beyond the ends of my mains to tap. Should I use saddles or can I use a mainline tee with the four 5/16"
Inputs? I'm on a southwest facing slope right now too, blue 3/4" or can I save some $ and use black? It will be CDL if it makes a difference.

[VT_K9]

I would recommend using saddles. We had used the stars and a homebuilt thing of brass to get lines into a 1/2" and 3/4" mains in the past. The saddles are much nicer. We have a lot of black pipe for our mains and this year we are going to add some blue. Mainly because of distance run and amount of direct sun exposure. I think the goal in the future for us will be keep sap as cool as possible. Beside adding a few more mains or taps to our current layout that is about the only upgrade or improvement we can do.

Mike

PS I looked at hte weight rating for the hooks and eyes I have available and the heaviest is rated for 320 lbs...not enough for my comfort.

[S&STappers]

Well, I've got all my wires up. Lot more brush than I originally thought. I swear the balsams regrow at night. Started unspooling 3/4" line tonight. Put a tension grip on and started down hill. Pulled it tight and the grip pulled right off. Went back and replaced it and pulled on it by hand. Slides right off the tubing. Is there a trick I'm missing or something? They're 3/4" grips, double checked the package. Bought them at the cdl dealer with the pipe. Anyone else have this issue? It was about 25° today if that makes a difference.

[Russell Lampron]

Well, I've got all my wires up. Lot more brush than I originally thought. I swear the balsams regrow at night. Started unspooling 3/4" line tonight. Put a tension grip on and started down hill. Pulled it tight and the grip pulled right off. Went back and replaced it and pulled on it by hand. Slides right off the tubing. Is there a trick I'm missing or something? They're 3/4" grips, double checked the package. Bought them at the cdl dealer with the pipe. Anyone else have this issue? It was about 25° today if that makes a difference.

I have only had that problem when I was trying to use a grip that was too big for the pipe. I get my grips from Bascom's and I don't think they get theirs from CDL.

[VT_K9]

Try using one or two as clamps. They'll help hold until you have enough tension to allow the puller to work properly. I've done this a couple of times with success.

Mike

[S&STappers]

Sounds good, we'll give the hose clamps a shot. Thanks!