system design & layout

[Danaputnam]

Looking for some ideas/feedback on a vacuum setup I am working on. Currently have ~1400 taps that flow with grade to common point (tank 1) which is where my power is. Should be able to add upwards of 500 -800 taps from land above it. That part is pretty straightforward. Adjacent to this, I have 600 taps (that may expand by up to another 600 taps) that flow to a point around the same grade as the tank area for the 1600 taps, but are currently on second tank (Tank 2) as there is approximately 1/2 mile and a rise of approximately 30 feet in between. This second tank location would be very difficult to get power to.

I am thinking of a) keeping two tank locations and running a vacuum line from my soon to be pump house at tank 1, over to tank 2 and having a second releaser at tank 2 or b) installing a sap ladder and pulling all the sap to the first tank. Granted I may not get all of this done this season, but as I am at least putting in the pump and releaser for tank 1, I want to size the system correctly for expansion.

So, in summary, Tank 1 - currently ~ 1400 taps, expandable to ~2000 taps, tank 2, currently 600 taps, expandable to ~1000-1200 taps, Total current taps ~2000, expandable to ~3200. Should I run two releasers or install a sap ladder or other ideas? Both tank locations are easy enough to gather so that is not an issue but only power at Tank 1 and not feasible to bury a line to tank 2.

Also, what CFM per 100 taps are people setting up their systems for? I see recommendations ranging from 1 to 1.75/100 taps so any feedback appreciated.

Thanks,

Dana

[nymapleguy607]

I think if it were me I would run a dry line from your vacuum pump to tank to and just pick sap from that 2nd location. Just be sure to size the dryline appropriatley so you are getting enough cfm's at the second location.

[BreezyHill]

CFM rating depends on the items used in a system and how tight your system is. Mechanical releasers consume CFMS where as electric releasers do not.

Running a ladder with that number of taps will have about 0.15 CFM injected to lift the sap in a 2 or 3 ladder system ladder system on a tight and maintained tubing system.
If your system has a few leaks already then you may not need to inject anything as there may be enough already in the system.

It will also depend on how high of a vacuum you are running. The higher you run the vacuum level the more response you get from an injector due to the speed the bubble travels in the lines.

The second releaser will be more of a cfm burden than will a ladder system.

I calculate less need less than 1 cfm per 100 taps to run a system that has 8 ladders to collect 600 taps and bring it all to the sugar house. On a good year we did just under .5g/tap syrup yield. This does have an electric releaser and the vac level is never below 28" and I try to check the lines at least every other day. If there is a dip in vac level I go right out to see why and fix it.

More numbers needed:
Distance from pump house to tank #2:
Current Vac level:
CFM of your pump:
how often do you check your lines for leaks:
30' of elevation you said...does this site have slope to tank #1 after a location of the ladders an how much:

What I would build would be a wet dry system to tank #2 with 2 or 3 ladders depending on variables.

Other options would be pump at tank #2 to pump the sap up to a slope line to tank #1 but this will also dramatically increase your cfms needed.

Ben

[Danaputnam]

Thank you both for your input. It is about 2000 feet to the tank 2 location. Vacuum set up is new, so no vac level data yet. Pump being put in will have 68 CFM. After the rise, there is slope down to tank 1. Any idea how to properly size the dry line to tank 2? I am thinking 1 1/2 for the dry line but have not found a good reference. Regarding how tight the system is, it was partially setup last year, finished this year. So it is new, but I know that nothing is as tight as you think it is.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Dana,
I would recommend 2" pipe to transfer your vacuum that distance. Inch and a half will transfer about 15 cfm's that far and 2 inch will transfer 29 cfm's.

[Danaputnam]

Thank you, appreciate the quick and early response!

[mellondome]

For 600 - 1200 taps, 1 1/2 should be plenty.. unless cost is not an issue
You will only need 7 - 14 cfm.

[BreezyHill]

Thank you both for your input. It is about 2000 feet to the tank 2 location. Vacuum set up is new, so no vac level data yet. Pump being put in will have 68 CFM. After the rise, there is slope down to tank 1. Any idea how to properly size the dry line to tank 2? I am thinking 1 1/2 for the dry line but have not found a good reference. Regarding how tight the system is, it was partially setup last year, finished this year. So it is new, but I know that nothing is as tight as you think it is.


The reference you are looking for is available thru Cornell university at: http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/pubs/index.htm

What you are looking for are the spread sheets and charts from Steve Childs for Vacuum Transfer.

This lists cfm and tap capacity for 1" line and then you need to adjust for different size lines. The charts also have a calculation sheet that helps one to calculate how large a pump to purchase and how to size your lines in relationship to your slope and tap capacity. Once you grasp the setup of the charts they are fairly simple to use but some have issues navigating the different charts and all the columns of numbers:

Since I am confussed by the numbers given by others I will do out the process Steve said to use. CFM x TSF

CFM list for the distance of 2000' of 1" is 6 on your size pump, due to frictional losses.

The TSF, Tubing Size Factor is calculated by taking the Radius of the tubing, square it and multiply by pi, (3.14), and doing the same for the 1" tubing and
calculate the resulting equivalence of your desired size to the 1". R=D/2...D is diameter.

So for a 1.5" the area is 1.77. 1.5/2= .75 ( .75 x .75)=.5625 * 3.14= 1.77

For a 1" it is .79

1.77/.79=2.24 TSF

6 x 2.24 = 13.44 CFM for 1.5" tubing at 2000'

2" TSF is 3.14/.79 = 3.97

6x3.97 = 23.82 CFM for the 2"

On a tight system...very true "new is not as tight as you might think"... I use 1 cfm per 100 taps and this is the carry capacity that is used on Steve's charts as well. If your system has more leaks then use a smaller count as low as 50 taps. But remember that a few micro leaks will speed the lift of the sap up the ladders and reduces how much the ladder needs injected.

Where we run into a problem is: This 2000' line is a dry line to a releaser. The releaser will use CFMs also. This amount will need to be factored in addition to the cfm you will need for the taps. This CFM can be calculated by the volume of the releaser and how often the releaser cycles. Measure the releasers Diameter and depth. D/2 = R R x R x 3.14 = cubic inches and divided this by 1728 to get CF. Now you have to figure how often it will dump. If using a ladder then this is negated.

Peak flow is figured at 0.2 gallon per tap per hour so if you have 600 taps that is 120 gallons per hour and if your unit dumps 3 gallons per cycle then you will have 40 dumps an hour. If the chamber is 5 gallons then 5 *231(cubic inches in a galloon) is 1155 / 1728= 0.66 CF per dump x40 = 26.4 CFH / 60 = 0.44 CFM

This is why I am a fan of spread sheets. Do the math in a box one time and let the computer do the rest.

So with 1200 taps you will want 12 cfm plus lets say 1 cfm for the releaser for a total of 13. If this is all you need the 1.5" will do the job with a 3% cushion, and the 2" will give you an 83% cushion.

To run the peak flow of 600 taps on a 2% slope you only need a 1" wet line, as 1" has a flow of 330 gal; but for the 1200 mas on that system you will need to go to 1.5" as that will give you 742 gallons per hour flow rating.

If I were you I would start with the 1.5" for your wet line and ladder that and add another 1.5" dry line when you decide to expand to the 1200 taps. The 1.5" on 600 taps gives over 100% cushion for CFM and with the ladder you will have most of the releaser's cfm for additional cushion. Thus plenty of space for sap in the one line to start and vac transfer.

I have to run so I don't have time to proof read & sorry this is lengthy...if any questions just ask or pm me is fine.

Ben

[Danaputnam]

Ben,

Many many thanks. Great reference and I appreciate the detailed walk through. I am digesting but if I have questions I will come back.

Dana

[Schiefe4]

The reference you are looking for is available thru Cornell university at: http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/pubs/index.htm

What you are looking for are the spread sheets and charts from Steve Childs for Vacuum Transfer.

This lists cfm and tap capacity for 1" line and then you need to adjust for different size lines. The charts also have a calculation sheet that helps one to calculate how large a pump to purchase and how to size your lines in relationship to your slope and tap capacity. Once you grasp the setup of the charts they are fairly simple to use but some have issues navigating the different charts and all the columns of numbers:

Since I am confussed by the numbers given by others I will do out the process Steve said to use. CFM x TSF

CFM list for the distance of 2000' of 1" is 6 on your size pump, due to frictional losses.

The TSF, Tubing Size Factor is calculated by taking the Radius of the tubing, square it and multiply by pi, (3.14), and doing the same for the 1" tubing and
calculate the resulting equivalence of your desired size to the 1". R=D/2...D is diameter.

So for a 1.5" the area is 1.77. 1.5/2= .75 ( .75 x .75)=.5625 * 3.14= 1.77

For a 1" it is .79

1.77/.79=2.24 TSF

6 x 2.24 = 13.44 CFM for 1.5" tubing at 2000'

2" TSF is 3.14/.79 = 3.97

6x3.97 = 23.82 CFM for the 2"

On a tight system...very true "new is not as tight as you might think"... I use 1 cfm per 100 taps and this is the carry capacity that is used on Steve's charts as well. If your system has more leaks then use a smaller count as low as 50 taps. But remember that a few micro leaks will speed the lift of the sap up the ladders and reduces how much the ladder needs injected.

Where we run into a problem is: This 2000' line is a dry line to a releaser. The releaser will use CFMs also. This amount will need to be factored in addition to the cfm you will need for the taps. This CFM can be calculated by the volume of the releaser and how often the releaser cycles. Measure the releasers Diameter and depth. D/2 = R R x R x 3.14 = cubic inches and divided this by 1728 to get CF. Now you have to figure how often it will dump. If using a ladder then this is negated.

Peak flow is figured at 0.2 gallon per tap per hour so if you have 600 taps that is 120 gallons per hour and if your unit dumps 3 gallons per cycle then you will have 40 dumps an hour. If the chamber is 5 gallons then 5 *231(cubic inches in a galloon) is 1155 / 1728= 0.66 CF per dump x40 = 26.4 CFH / 60 = 0.44 CFM

This is why I am a fan of spread sheets. Do the math in a box one time and let the computer do the rest.

So with 1200 taps you will want 12 cfm plus lets say 1 cfm for the releaser for a total of 13. If this is all you need the 1.5" will do the job with a 3% cushion, and the 2" will give you an 83% cushion.

To run the peak flow of 600 taps on a 2% slope you only need a 1" wet line, as 1" has a flow of 330 gal; but for the 1200 mas on that system you will need to go to 1.5" as that will give you 742 gallons per hour flow rating.

If I were you I would start with the 1.5" for your wet line and ladder that and add another 1.5" dry line when you decide to expand to the 1200 taps. The 1.5" on 600 taps gives over 100% cushion for CFM and with the ladder you will have most of the releaser's cfm for additional cushion. Thus plenty of space for sap in the one line to start and vac transfer.

I have to run so I don't have time to proof read & sorry this is lengthy...if any questions just ask or pm me is fine.

Ben

Having a hard time finding this excel spreadsheet. Do you have a direct link?

[DrTimPerkins]

Having a hard time finding this excel spreadsheet. Do you have a direct link?

It is not an Excel spreadsheet. It is a notebook that Cornell sells called The New York State Maple Tubing and Vacuum System Notebook. The order form is located at http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/pubs/Maple%20publications%20order%20form.pdf

[Schiefe4]

Thank you!

[Moser's Maple]

It is a notebook that Cornell sells called The New York State Maple Tubing and Vacuum System Notebook. The order form is located at http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/pubs/Maple%20publications%20order%20form.pdf

By this notebook in front of me lets make this real simple for you.
you have a 68 cfm pump,
by the book on a pump that size in a dry line you'll transfer 15cfm 2000' with 1.5" out....a 2" line will carry 29cfm at 2000'
so basically you'll have a 29 cfm vacuum pump at your releaser for the furthest out taps
now for argument sakes since the pump will be running 2 releasers lets cut your cfm's in half (i don't think this is how it works, but like i said for argument sakes)
so you have a 34 cfm pump
1.5" @ 2000' will give you 14cfm.............2" @ 2000' will give you 22cfm
as I have been told from the vacuum guru's way better at this than me, it's all about the CFM's so if you size your lines properly after each releaser you will have a greater advantage with a 2" line and should be able to recover any additional costs from 1.5-2" on a side note I would seriously look into either 20' lengths of pvc pipe, or sdr pipe because speaking from my little taste of dealing with 2" roll poly, it's just a bear, but I also didn't have all equipment either to handle that size pipe. most of all it's your system, and you know how much $ you want to invest. this was just my .02 hope it helps

[unc23win]

I think Jake did an excellent job breaking it down. I also agree with Jake that you might want to look into PVC or SDR 26 pipe. I am probably going to try some myself next season as I have talked to others that use it. Also you can get good pricing if you buy skids of it. I am not interesting in wrestling with 2" polly.

[morningstarfarm]

On a run that long I would look at using PVC electrical conduit...there will be no sap transfer so food grade is not as important...but better connections and weather durability...good luck