New packer lead requirements

[wiam]

Maple grove handed out this sheet at the Caledonia County annual meeting last week. They said the large packers had agreed to this timeline.

10372

[Bucket Head]

Interesting.

Did anyone from Maple Grove yell, "surprise!" as they handed them out?

Thanks for posting that.

Steve

[markct]

I find it interesting that they list as "exhibit a" eliminating lead from pails spiles tanks and collection tubing????? was tubing ever an issue I always thought all sap tubing was lead free? or was it just some frugal old timers that started using garden hose or some non maple tube that wasn't lead free?

[Bucket Head]

So there will be no more testing syrup for lead at the end of the timeline? There will be no need to, right? Sounds like a pretty ambitious plan.

As reminded in another post about galvanized buckets, there is a long-established, acceptable amount of lead that is allowed. What is the packer going to say if you have passed your states or FDA PPB lead test?

Steve

[wiam]

Interesting.

Did anyone from Maple Grove yell, "surprise!" as they handed them out?

Thanks for posting that.

Steve

No but I was more surprised by the timeline than the rest.

[wiam]

Maple Grove also mentioned they were coming up with there own inspection program similar toVMSMA's that they would provide to there customers for no charge.

[DrTimPerkins]

What is the packer going to say if you have passed your states or FDA PPB lead test?

No, this is not an April Fool's prank -- it is a quite serious matter. There will no doubt be considerably more coming out about this over the next year. If you make your own syrup, you should still be diligent in making sure that your syrup does not contain lead above actionable levels set by the authorities in your jurisdiction. However if you are selling to packers, you must certify that you are abiding by certain conditions. I expect there to be considerably MORE testing done by packers. They probably will stop purchasing for producers who have consistently high lead levels and/or who do not follow the required conditions.

Packers are not required to buy syrup from anyone who shows up at their door. If they don't want to buy syrup from a particular operation, they won't.

[Mark]

I find it interesting that they list as "exhibit a" eliminating lead from pails spiles tanks and collection tubing????? was tubing ever an issue I always thought all sap tubing was lead free? or was it just some frugal old timers that started using garden hose or some non maple tube that wasn't lead free?
That is what I would like to know, tubing???

[maple flats]

Do you have a link to this new chart? It is too small on my screen, and when I zoom in to make it larger, it is too blurry. I printed it and still can't read it. Any help appreciated.

[WESTMAPLES]

not to get off topic but i read that bascom`s isn`t accepting syrup in galvanized barrels and there not selling english tin pans, galvanized sap barrels, or lead soldered items its a step in the right direction seeing that atleast

[unc23win]

Bascoms started their drum policy last season.

[BreezyHill]

So there will be no more testing syrup for lead at the end of the timeline? There will be no need to, right? Sounds like a pretty ambitious plan.

I am sure that there will be spot checks on occasion after the timeline expires. If nothing else they will do a customer check to document that their product is expectable.

If you fail a test then you will likely go on a list and need to prove compliance prior to them accepting product in the future.

[bowtie]

this lead thing is not going away, it is serious stuff. i would bet that in the coming years the maple industry will phase out all galv products or lead soldered products entirely.

[DrTimPerkins]

That is what I would like to know, tubing???

Although tubing is on the list, there is no evidence that suggests lead originates from tubing (as long as you are using maple tubing or tubing for potable water).

[brookledge]

This is a result of the agreement made with the state of California. If you read the Dec 2014 digest there was an article regarding this. The stat of Ca. has strict laws about lead. Don't know what they are other than it seems obvious they are more stringent than most of the maple producing states allowable levels. So acording to the article nine packers in the US and Canada signed this agreement. (Sounds like away of saying settled out of court)to meet the maximum amount of lead allowable under Proposistion 65.
I would not be suprised if the packers begin testing for lead in drums as it is brought in. I also think that this additional cost will mean that they may increase the minimum size container allowable to be brought in. Just because the syrup gets packed into a stainless drum doesnt allow the packer to know how your process operates and how much lead is still in use by you.
I just did a quick search online and found an article where a lawsuit was filed against Target for lead in the syrup they sell. It had 13ppb. State of vermont has 250ppb as an allowable limit.
The article in the digest doesn't state what the exact agreement is. Anyways this is going to be interesting to say the least.
Keith

[GeneralStark]

Perhaps I am missing something but I don't see anywhere any specific lead level tested syrup must be below. Are they using VT's standard? Is there an accepted background level for maple syrup?

[markct]

Although tubing is on the list, there is no evidence that suggests lead originates from tubing (as long as you are using maple tubing or tubing for potable water).

Thank you Dr Tim, I must say this had me a bit alarmed when I first read it as all this time I had been under the impression tubing was lead free entirely, infact I recall you or someone in a similar position at one time pointing out that research showed sap gathered by tubing picked up virtualy no measurable lead. So this statement came as a shock to me when I saw mention of phasing out lead in tubing. I wonder if it is just in there to show no maple types that "look we already have put the effort into lead free tubing" even tho it would seem most already was.

[Bucket Head]

Generalstark & All,

Yes, the "Packer Policy" lacks some details. There should be some numbers on that sheet they handed out. Why the omission?

In another post about buckets, Flatlander stated the current acceptable amount for lead in Vermont is 250 ppb., which is my point here. I'm not saying lead levels are not a serious matter or that the packers don't have a right to test syrup. and I'm all for testing syrup

[Bucket Head]

Yes, the "Packer Policy" lacks some details. There should be some numbers on that sheet they handed out. Why the omission?

In another post about buckets, Flatlander stated the current acceptable amount for lead in Vermont is 250 ppb., which is my point here. I'm not saying lead levels are not a serious matter or that the packers don't have a right to test syrup. I'm all for testing syrup- forever, timeline or no timeline.

Are the numbers in the "fineprint" of this document different from what is currently deemed safe by the FDA? And if so, how?

Steve

[DrTimPerkins]

Yes, the "Packer Policy" lacks some details. There should be some numbers on that sheet they handed out. Why the omission?

The FDA hasn't ever weighed in on this that I am aware of. It was a state-by-state (or provincial) decision to set an "action level" The new settlement was not driven by state regulation, and instead skirts the issue of a set allowable level, but instead aims to reduce syrup lead by removing the sources. Essentially it deems that any amount of lead added through processing is too much, but because there is not a good consensus estimate on "naturally-occurring" lead in maple syrup, it does not establish a set level, but instead requires that packers work with their suppliers to reduce lead-containing equipment I their operations.

Although it might seem somewhat odd that the states have their own action level and the packers have a different set of guidelines, the two are quite compatible. The state sets a maximum level, while the packers must demonstrate that they are working to ensure their suppliers have the lowest lead levels achievable. The result is that if your syrup is below the actionable level, the state isn't going to bother you, but that doesn't mean that any packer HAS to buy our syrup. That is a commercial transaction. They can choose who they buy from (or not) for any reason they wish.

[maple flats]

I also note a huge variation on dates each phase is effective, based on the number of taps you have, over 20,000 taps, 10,000-20,000 taps and under 10,000 taps. The largest begin this next Oct., medium producers begin 1 yr later and small begin 2 yrs later and each group has 1 yr. to complete the change.
It does seem to me that an allowable max. would also be in the requirements too, just to be certain that the lead has effectively been reduced.
So much for the old saying "bite the bullet", now we also need to be careful it is not a lead bullet.

[BreezyHill]

It is best if all producers are proactive with this and all potential health issues for our customers and ourselves. The sooner you are compliant the better your operation is from a safety stand point.

The majority of customers are on smart phones or the web and all it will take is one bad press report and we will be like the spinach farmers.

I was in a store that carries our maple and over heard a customer asking what they had for greens that had all the benefits of spinach but not the Ecoli concerns. I looked at the owner and he said don't laugh we get that all the time. He has 48x96' greenhouses of all kinds of greens and no spinach...cant sell it so we don't plant it any more. He point to one of the 48x96 and said that one was all spinach at on time.

Go and try to buy lead BBs. You can get copper coated and steel but not lead. Lead is soft and doesn't damage the barrels like steel.

Just think of us like gas stations....Leaded and Unleaded. LOL

Sorry if you aren't old enough to get that one.

[maple flats]

I personally don't see why a small producer like myself would not keep up to date like the big producer. We want our syrup to be as good as OR BETTER than a big producer makes! I for one, have all of it met, except the gear pump to my filter press. I now have a bronze pump (low lead) but will soon have either a SS pump or a food grade plastic air diaphragm pump. The bronze pump will be gone before the year is out.

[maple flats]

I wonder if the maple tubing is listed because the original was like a downspout gutter type and lead soldered and laid on the ground. Does anyone still use that?

[Maplewalnut]

I wonder if the maple tubing is listed because the original was like a downspout gutter type and lead soldered and laid on the ground. Does anyone still use that?

I think tubing is included because it is part of the 'collection system'. Three points of contact with lengthy resonance time in our operations...collection, boiling and storage. They now have all bases covered even for the creative producer using 'downspouts'

[BreezyHill]

I personally don't see why a small producer like myself would not keep up to date like the big producer. We want our syrup to be as good as OR BETTER than a big producer makes!

It is this way in most industries to allow the small operator to afford the changes that are peanuts to large multi million dollar operations.

Quite often small producers would spend their annual profits on one or two pieces of equipment.

Also the small producer is often a miniut percentage of the national production in relation to the larger producers, that can be even half of a percent of the production of a state.

Its the old "Start at the top and work your way down" mode of operation.

Hats off to you for being ahead of the curve Dave. Good Job!

[wiam]

I personally don't see why a small producer like myself would not keep up to date like the big producer. We want our syrup to be as good as OR BETTER than a big producer makes! I for one, have all of it met, except the gear pump to my filter press. I now have a bronze pump (low lead) but will soon have either a SS pump or a food grade plastic air diaphragm pump. The bronze pump will be gone before the year is out.

I am pondering this one: http://www.zoro.com/i/G2933086/ Doubt that most of my syrup is over 175. Diaphragms in this one should tolerate some abrasives.
Sorry, sort of off topic.

[maple flats]

Max. temperature seems to be my issue with that one. I filter at 205-210, the 175 won't do. I like to filter directly into a barrel if the batch isn't being packed retail. I can't pack a barrel at 175. It would be lower still as it hit the barrel.

[sugarsand]

I wonder if the maple tubing is listed because the original was like a downspout gutter type and lead soldered and laid on the ground. Does anyone still use that?

Dave, could it be they were referring to galvanized pipe and calling it tubing? Such as the plumbing between storage tanks or head tank to evaporator.

Sugarsand

[maple flats]

I guess I don't know. Does any common hardware tubing have lead as a component now days?

[Moser's Maple]

just a side note here, but if producers are worried about their pumps on the filter presses, then if you own a gear pump cream machine you better check out that pump also, even in the $3900 sunrise WJ candy/cream machine

[BreezyHill]

I know that about 12 years ago when one of our sons came up with a high lead level we were amazed by what had lead and how high some of them were.

The old plaster and lath ..our house built in 1843 had a bunch still, is very high in lead. Plastic toys often had lead. Pretty much anything plastic that was colored other than a beige had lead. Window blinds was another thing I found as odd. He played with Thomas the tank Engine set a lot and that failed their test so we think that was the issue but he never chewed on the toys???
Six months after we got rid of the chest of toys his level was fine.

So don't waste time trying to figure why...just go with the flow on this one.

There will be plenty of others to come that will be head scratchers I am sure.

[markct]

just a side note here, but if producers are worried about their pumps on the filter presses, then if you own a gear pump cream machine you better check out that pump also, even in the $3900 sunrise WJ candy/cream machine

I changed my bronze pump out to a cast iron one when it wore out. The idea was first suggested to me by Jeff Mason of Red Bucket who pointed out that with cast iron there is no lead, they last longer he found, and if there was a tiny bit of rust that happened to form in storage it would simple be caught by the filter press anyhow. Any minute amount of iron that the pump introduced isn't harmful as its a mineral some people take as a supplement anyhow. And to top it off a cast iron oberborfer type pump is cheaper than bronze anyhow! I did look inside mine when I was changing some plumbing after using it for 2 seasons and there was no rust at all on the inside.

[Bucket Head]

I still think the packers should come out with whatever number their thinking of as a "benchmark". They must have something in mind.

Let us know what we are shooting for, everyone could have their syrup tested, and then there would be no more "surprises". I'd hate to drive syrup to a buyer and have them say, "Oh, so sorry. You did'nt meet my new self imposed standard for lead".

The gear pump post from Dave is ironic because I too thought of the different equipment we all use. Thousands of us still use soldered pans, galvanized buckets, non-all stainless pumps and factory-built RO's that have brass 3-way valves and fittings on them- myself included. The syrup made with that equipment is safe in everyones eyes except the bulk buyers?

I don't think anyone is unwilling to comply, but we need to know what the future definition of "comply" is to do so.

Steve

[maple flats]

Most if not all newer brass is lead free or low lead. It just depends on when it was cast and to which specs. Old brass always had lead, before lead was an issue. If fact, those of use who consumed syrup before the early 80's had syrup that was made in lead soldered pans or possibly low lead soldered. As I was growing up, we always got 2 or 3 gallons of syrup at a local sugarhouse. The syrup was made on a lead soldered evaporator, and packed in lead soldered tin cans. That was the industry standard back in the 50's - 60's and before. Now look at me, it did no harm,did no harm, did no harm, I'm just fine, just fine, just fine.
We didn't, but most water lines feeding homes back then were lead too. I wonder if that might be part of the issue on why our world is screwed up?

[DrTimPerkins]

I still think the packers should come out with whatever number their thinking of as a "benchmark". They must have something in mind.

The purpose of the new guidelines are to remove ANY non-naturally occurring lead. It is possible that there is little or no lead that naturally occurs in maple sap, but perhaps there is a little....it just hasn't been well established. So any "benchmark" level that is set would be artificial, and could either be too high (meaning there is lead in there that shouldn't be), or perhaps too low (meaning that maple producers could never reach that level). By removing contact of sap or syrup with lead-containing items, there should be no exogenous lead added, with the result that syrup lead falls to the lowest point that it can. The point is to get it as low as it can possibly be without knowing exactly what that level is.

[n8hutch]

I think the Big Packers Hands are kind of tied on this issue. I don't think they had a choice but to adopt stricter rules. I have seen syrup Advertised as "Unbleanded" recently which is a direct poke at the Big packers and I wouldn't be surprised if someone was Advertising their Maple products as being produced with lead Free Equipment.

I don't think they want to be behind the 8 Ball when people are in thy Syrup Isle at the Grocery Store & their product sounds inferior to multiple other brands who make claims that they cannot.

It is unfortunate that I won't be able to tease my kids about eating Too much leaded syrup, like my sister used to rag on me about those paint chips I used to nibble on when I was a kid.lol

[pdr]

Seems like most of us are flying blind here. What's the easiest, most reliable and least costly means of testing our product? Must it be done only at a remote lab? Any new tests on the horizon?

[DrTimPerkins]

Seems like most of us are flying blind here. What's the easiest, most reliable and least costly means of testing our product? Must it be done only at a remote lab? Any new tests on the horizon?

http://www.endynelabs.com/ I don't know what the procedures are or current cost. You'll have to contact them.

There is no quick and easy test you can do on your own. The syrup should be well-filtered. Even a small amount of niter can elevate the results.

[Mark]

http://www.endynelabs.com/ I don't know what the procedures are or current cost. You'll have to contact them.

There is no quick and easy test you can do on your own. The syrup should be well-filtered. Even a small amount of niter can elevate the results.
The cost is $30 and they will email a form to fill out.

[Jmsmithy]

Absolutely agree with you Dave (sorry missed you at VVS).

Linda and I are fortunate. We've come to the game a bit late - this will be our first year of commercial production - but in researching the maple biz, trends etc, it was fairly evident that the writing was on the wall. Everything we've been doing, from construction to equipment purchases, are all based on new and up coming standards....everything from sealed concrete floors w/ in-floor drains to stainless EVERYTHING...Evaporator, pans, barrels, pumps, tanks etc etc etc....hasn't been cheap but we figuring a lot of it are one time purchases and its eventually going to be mandatory. So why not get ahead of the curve!?

[wiam]

I emailed Mary Croft from VMSMA over the weekend and she must have forwarded to Henry Marckres. I got this in an email from Henry this am.


"The new lead requirements are an industry standard, and not in any laws in Vermont. A packer can decide to purchase your syrup or not, but there is nothing prohibiting your selling it in law.

Copper has not been an issue. Vermont has no plans to change our legal requirements for maple syrup.

Henry J. Marckres
Chief
Consumer Protection
Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets

[spud]

So all those lead soldered pans can be used after all? I think if I was a packer I would want to visit the sugar houses I buy from.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

So all those lead soldered pans can be used after all?

They can be used if:
1) You're not selling syrup to a packer (or at least one who was part of the CA agreement).
2) Your syrup lead level falls below the action level (250 ppb VT, 500 ppb most other states/provinces)


I think if I was a packer I would want to visit the sugar houses I buy from.

I think you can expect that will happen.

[wiam]

So all those lead soldered pans can be used after all? I think if I was a packer I would want to visit the sugar houses I buy from.

Spud

Maple Grove is working on a sugarhouse inspection program according to their syrup buyer at our county meeting.

[802maple]

For all of you that are trying to blame this on the packer, you need to search this out further. They are basically governed by their customers, ie large grocery stores. They are required to meet stringent requirements in order to sell to them. They have yearly and often times more then that, audits done by these chain stores that they have to meet by contract. I have seen large orders walk out the door because the potential client discovered that the producers didn't wear simple things such as hair nets while making syrup. Believe me the packers would rather not go through all this, but their hand is being forced if they want to stay in business and sell to these businesses.

[S&STappers]

Hey Doc, you say a small amount of niter can elevate lead levels. Does this mean there are naturally occurring lead amounts in syrup, or is that just where it concentrates when picked up from buckets, solder etc.?

[DrTimPerkins]

Hey Doc, you say a small amount of niter can elevate lead levels. Does this mean there are naturally occurring lead amounts in syrup, or is that just where it concentrates when picked up from buckets, solder etc.?

The amount of naturally-occurring lead in sap is extremely low. The VAST majority of lead found in maple syrup and in niter originates from lead-containing equipment. If none of your equipment has lead, then the niter will be low in lead as well. The problem with lead in niter is that during prolonged storage, the lead in the niter that wasn't filtered out can become mobilized back into the syrup.

[DrTimPerkins]

For all of you that are trying to blame this on the packer, you need to search this out further. They are basically governed by their customers, ie large grocery stores. They are required to meet stringent requirements in order to sell to them.

You are exactly and completely right.

[Amber Gold]

What about a lead soldered canner? Would that violate the rules? The syrup's only going to be in there long enough to heat up and bottle, so I'm not worried about it. We currently sell all of our syrup retail, but maybe that'll change in the future.

[DrTimPerkins]

What about a lead soldered canner?

A canner would fall under the "Exhibit C" list, which includes "filling units." For the size of your operation, if you are selling to a packer, you might need to remove that item by Oct 1, 2020. If you don't sell to a packer then you are not required to remove that canner from your operation (as long as your syrup is below the action level for your state or province). Given that any syrup you'd be selling to a packer would be in bulk, then that syrup wouldn't have come into contact with the canner, so you'd probably be OK either way, but it would depend upon what the packer decided.

[Amber Gold]

Dr. Tim. I appreciate the response and explanation. Thanks. If it's not going to be an issue until 2020 at the earliest, and I have other canners that are welded, I can work around this issue.