2015 Bulk Pricing

[GeneralStark]

In the sap buying thread related to Mike Farrell's spreadsheet tools, which does use bulk prices to calculate sap pricing, there has been some discussion related to bulk syrup prices in 2015.

Wiam said:

"Head of production for Maple Grove spoke at our county meeting last night. He said there was basically no surplus syrup in the states and they expect to be paying in the $2.45-$2.50 range depending on exchange rate."

Dr. Tim said:

"This is what I have heard as well. The price paid will basically be the Federation price with the exchange factored in, plus any premiums (organic, large bulk producer, etc.). For areas further away from the packers, prices might be a bit lower (as usual) due to transportation costs. Apparently syrup sales are fairly strong."

Unc23win said:

"That's pretty much goes with what Bruce Bascom said (he said it would be strong, but slightly lower) which would be 2.45-$2.50 in his letter in the new catalog. In my opinion still plenty of room for both parties (buyer and seller) to make money."

And then markcasper said:

"If there is anything more than an average crop, I think anything grade A is going to be down around $2.00 and very likely below. One US dollar is equal to $1.20 for one Canadian and that will no doubt push this price down if that trend continues. A year ago the exchange rate was closer to even, .20 on the dollar is a big deal and a big change from last year."

Any other thoughts?

[DrTimPerkins]

If there is anything more than an average crop, I think anything grade A is going to be down around $2.00 and very likely below. One US dollar is equal to $1.20 for one Canadian and that will no doubt push this price down if that trend continues. A year ago the exchange rate was closer to even, .20 on the dollar is a big deal and a big change from last year.

Syrup supply on the Canadian side has seemingly little to do with the prices. It is the Federation price (somewhere around C$2.90/lb) and the exchange rate that is most important in determining what US producers receive. Basically the packers can get the syrup for a known price (the Federation price x the exchange rate), so that is what they'll pay for local US syrup. They might save a few cents per pound on the transportation of US syrup if they don't need to truck it real far. It isn't worth it for them to buy just a drum or two here and there though....they need a semi-load at minimum to make it worthwhile to get syrup from areas very far out. That's why you find the buyers concentrating in certain areas....to get enough syrup for full truck loads.

The Canadian to U.S. exchange is currently (this morning) C$0.85 to US $1.00. Thus C$2.90 (the base value of good syrup in Quebec) = US$2.46 (the base value of good syrup in the US). Then you need to factor in the premiums and location.

The forecasts I've seen (which are basically a statistical gamble) seem to show the Canadian $ leveling out against the US $ for the first half of 2015, and maybe even strengthening a tiny bit, with the prediction being that it'll be worth about US$0.86 in June. If you are able to predict where the exchange rate is going with any reliability, then you'd be far better off in the futures market than making syrup. :)

[unc23win]

Any other thoughts?

Yea you forgot the ones where you asked Eric what he used for bulk price and he replied and then you said what bulk prices were. Then it sort of spiraled from there. Sorry we ruined the thread for you.

[BreezyHill]

With the Obama mess still printing money and the entire quarter scam...we are now in the printing of a new quarter for every state; for a national park for each state. Factor this and the low sales reports for the companies that are making the collectors books for the states.

The idea was that the baby boomers would bay them for their grand kids...but they for got the age of these grand kids. They are past the age that is into collecting things like this so it just adds more printing of money in the eyes of analysts and the value of the dollar keeps clicking down-down -down, til you have to carry plastic since the paper is to much to carry to buy anything.

This is not a pun against the Canadian currency that is plastic bills and not paper. That looks really cool I think.

If you factor in the price of gas.$2.29 last night on the road and the exchange rate that would make it nearly $1 a gallon for the exchange rate for when Bush was in Office.

Then factor in the CO Barrel brice that was around $45 and you are back in the $20's a barrel.

[GeneralStark]

Yea you forgot the ones where you asked Eric what he used for bulk price and he replied and then you said what bulk prices were. Then it sort of spiraled from there. Sorry we ruined the thread for you.

The thread is not ruined. I just figured this would be a hot topic.:)

[wdchuck]

I am no big fan of the major packers. They see our product as nothing more than a commodity- They are not in the business of making us rich! They'll put the price at the minimum that will ensure them an adequate supply to meet their sales projections, all factors taken into consideration.. Things are good right now, but they weren't always this way.

[DrTimPerkins]

With the Obama mess still printing money and the entire quarter scam...

Perhaps I haven't had enough coffee yet today, but I utterly fail to see the relevance of this post to the topic.

[DrTimPerkins]

I am no big fan of the major packers. ...

Not to be glib about it, but it often seems to be a love-hate relationship in both directions. :) The reality is that the packers need the producers, and the producers (at least the bulk producers) need the packers. Each wants to make money, and each wants to make the most they can. There is only a certain amount of pie to be had, and the argument is always about how it gets sliced up. In reality, the maple industry has to have both packers and producers do well to be healthy. Unfortunately as prices drop (due to the exchange rate) and tighten up, the pie gets smaller and the differences get (seemingly) larger.

[BreezyHill]

Maybe I have had to many and was watching the futures board and reading an article on how much money we are printing and how it is driving the value of the dollar to the floor. Thus affecting the exchange rate of the dollar on other currency's.

The more they print the less it is worth.

Try those new creamers in the coffee it goes down so smooth. Problem is it has doubled my coffee intake.:lol:

[unc23win]

Perhaps I haven't had enough coffee yet today, but I utterly fail to see the relevance of this post to the topic.

I don't think there is enough coffee in Columbia to help see the relevance.

[CBOYER]

Statu quo for 2015 in Qc (In french)

http://www.laterre.ca/actualites/foret/statu-quo-pour-le-prix-du-sirop.php

[BreezyHill]

I don't think there is enough coffee in Columbia to help see the relevance.


One only needs to think back to class of Weimar Germany in 1923 to see the effects of printing money on an economy. Better put a pot on to read this history lesson. LOL.

"Quantitative easing is a mechanism by which The Fed can inject more money into the economy, virtually out of thin air..."

"The main problem with printing money is the danger of inflation. Inflation occurs when money in the system increases and the supply of goods and services does not increase at the same rate. For example, take a simple system in which there are one million goods. If there were $1 million in that system, then the goods would even out to each be worth $1. If, however, suddenly the money supply doubled to $2 million without the number of goods increasing, then the price of each good would double to $2 as well. Each dollar will have lost 50% of its purchasing power."

If you are still not getting how a weak US dollar compared to the strong Canadian dollar drives down the US price of Maple syrup; I suggest visiting Walmart or Target for a copy of Economics for Dummies...the cost is around $10 and has a 3.5 out of 5 star rating at Barnes and Noble.

Now some people are offended by the name of these publications but it in no way reflects on the readers, just the publisher.
I know a few accountant s that have this book on their shelf when they need to explain things to their clients.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

If you are still not getting how a weak US dollar compared to the strong Canadian dollar drives down the US price of Maple syrup


Perhaps Ben, you need to think this through. When the Canadian dollar was strong in comparison to the US dollar we had better syrup prices.

[SeanD]

I must be one of those dummies because I'm looking at data that shows the inflation rate has not only been held in check since January of 2008, but has actually gone down quite a bit - frankly plummeted. It hasn't been over 2% in about 2 years.

Take a look at what the inflation rates were before Obama started "printing money".

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/historical-inflation-rates/

Sean

[PATheron]

If what Doc is saying is true if the American dollar was weaker by 15% We'd be getting 2.90 for our syrup so wed benefit more in this particular instance as producers with a weak us dollar. Is this how it is? If the us dollar is weaker we cant buy as much with our dollar as consumers but as producers it benefits us and makes us more competitive? Other thing is how with the exchange rate being what it was under bush would our gas be a dollar a gallon? Is that a fact or are we just making sh@# up to reinforce some kind of partisan political bullcrap? Theron

[can'twaitforabigrun]

I just started a new thread in the Sugar Inn if anyone wishes to discuss exchange rates or US monetary policy. Or even Obama.

Theron, not sure if Doc even said that the US dollar is weaker. It is indeed stronger, as it costs $0.84 Cdn for $1 USD. https://www.google.ca/finance?q=CADUSD Therefore, at the current Quebec Federation price of $2.90 /lb Canadian , American packers can buy that Quebec syrup for approx. $2.45/lb American. If the Cdn $ was at par or above, it would be cheaper for American packers to buy US syrup for $2.85-$2.90, instead of the Quebec syrup.

Hopefully this helps.

[can'twaitforabigrun]

Also, it's not entirely a matter of the strength of the US dollar, but rather the weakness of the Cdn dollar.

[PATheron]

I think ive got it. Stronger Canadian dollar higher bulk prices for producers or if the American dollar is weaker we would still have higher bulk prices right? So it still is that no matter how you look at it a weaker US dollar does help make the American producers more money. Weaker us dollar would make any form of production or manufacturing in the us more competitive with rest of world. Ill freely admit Im no expert just trying to understand. Theron

[DrTimPerkins]

If you are still not getting how a weak US dollar compared to the strong Canadian dollar drives down the US price of Maple syrup;

Actually you've got that totally reversed. The US dollar is strong compared to the Canadian dollar. The net effect is that the Federation can pay their producers for Quebec syrup at $2.92/lb, which means that US producers get $0.85 to the Canadian dollar, or about US $2.48/lb.

I still think this is not the place for this discussion, however the "printing of money", or more correctly, quantitative easing, is probably the reason our economy is still chugging along compared to other economies around the world, so much so that now some of those other places are trying to emulate it. It is designed to incentivize financial institutions to loan out money, which they were loathe to do after the Great Recession. This approach has decidedly NOT resulted in inflation -- the greater fear these past few years has been deflation. The real problem is not that we're taxed too much, or that we spend too much, that argument can go on endlessly (and has). The problem is that the two are out of balance. Congress doesn't like to tax, but they like to spend. It is bad enough to do one or the other, but doing both is crazy.

Weimar Germany had many problems other than the printing of money. They had little recourse except to print money given the excessive war (WWI) reparations they were forced (almost literally at gunpoint) to agree to. Probably their biggest problem was that (eventually) there was the damage to their society caused by WWI and its aftermath was a total lack of balance in their government. That is what happens when one side gains total control. There are plenty of examples of what happens when either the extreme right or left of any political party has complete control.....not a single one of them is good.

[BreezyHill]

While I am not an economist, let me try to explain this.

When the Canadian price is set for a pound at say $2 for easy math the US producer only will get the exchange rate at the time. Right now it is $.834, so the offer would be for $1.668. Now with the rate at $1.35 US then you would be getting $2.70 for the same pound.

10 years ago this was a great thing for farmers and truckers. You could take the US dollar and get #1.30-$1.40 above the border and purchase northern equipment and make out very well.

Yes, the inflation rate is at nearly zero, due to the lack of funds in the consumers bank account and the FED keeping the interest rate so low. When people are buying products and spending money inflation can increase. The interest rate is used to keep inflation in check. When inflation is a problem the rate increases. When the economy is in trouble and needs stimulation the rate is lowered. Lower rates can stimulate people to purchase large ticket items, keeping people employed. Look at the 0% financing rates for cars, trucks, tractors and such; if that doesn't get you looking what will?

Economics affects every part of our lives. Learning and understanding the exchange rate is only a small part of our industry and impacts our bottom lines.

to see the current rates visit http://www.x-rates.com/table/?from=USD&amount=1

This shows the US Dollar against many other countries currency.

[DrTimPerkins]

I think ive got it. Stronger Canadian dollar higher bulk prices for producers or if the American dollar is weaker we would still have higher bulk prices right? So it still is that no matter how you look at it a weaker US dollar does help make the American producers more money. Weaker us dollar would make any form of production or manufacturing in the us more competitive with rest of world. Ill freely admit Im no expert just trying to understand. Theron

Very simply, let's say I'm a US packer looking to buy syrup. The US dollar is strong. When I look for syrup, the Canadian Federation price is $2.92 CANADIAN Dollars per pound. I go to the bank with my US Dollars to exchange it for Canadian currency. The exchange rate of Canadian Dollar to US is 0.85. So in order to buy that pound of syrup in Canada, I need to exchange $2.48 US Dollars ($2.92 Canadian x 0.85) and the bank gives me $2.92 Canadian Dollars.

So let's say that I decide that instead of Canadian syrup I want to buy some US syrup. Since I can buy Canadian syrup for US $2.48/lb, then I don't want to pay more than that....otherwise I just take my $2.48 US Dollars to the bank to get it exchanged for $2.92 Canadian. So anyone in the US who wants to sell their syrup to me has to accept the going rate for syrup in Canada after factoring in the exchange rate.

Now if the Canadian Dollar got stronger, say it became worth $0.90 US Dollars. Now we'd have to take Canadian $2.92/lb and multiply it by 0.90, with the result that the syrup would cost me US $2.63 .

Now instead if the Canadian Dollar continues to weaken, maybe down to $0.80 US Dollars. That means the packer would pay $2.92 x 0.90, or US $2.34.

[DrTimPerkins]

Theron, not sure if Doc even said that the US dollar is weaker. It is indeed stronger,

Correct on both. I said the US dollar was stronger in comparison to the Canadian dollar.

[Schiefe4]

The forecasts I've seen (which are basically a statistical gamble) seem to show the Canadian $ leveling out against the US $ for the first half of 2015, and maybe even strengthening a tiny bit, with the prediction being that it'll be worth about US$0.86 in June. If you are able to predict where the exchange rate is going with any reliability, then you'd be far better off in the futures market than making syrup. :)

So what you are saying is forecasts show no real change over the next 6 months? Going from 1 CDN = 0.85 USD to a possible increase of 1 CDN = 0.86 USD?

[can'twaitforabigrun]

Thanks, Dr. Perkins for simply saying what I was attempting to say.

Here in Canada it's a battle of east vs. west. In the east, (mostly Ontario) the manufacturing sector like to see a weaker Canadian dollar. This helps them to sell more product since it's cheaper for their biggest customer; the Americans to buy their products. In western Canada the oil and gas sector does well when the Canadian dollar is higher. This I partially because of our dollar becoming a quasi petrodollar.

[markcasper]

Sure is something how the exchange rate works to raise and lower syrup prices, wish the same could be said for equipment prices. High or low dollar, prices for equipment generally only go one way. The same for electricity.....received another notice of a 2% increase, yet the fuel has dropped a record amount in the past four months. Every other time they had a petition to raise rates, it was blamed on the ever increasing cost of fuel. I wonder how many businesses that charge a fuel surcharge will be eliminating this?? I remember back to a day when fuel surcharge was not even a term.

[DrTimPerkins]

So what you are saying is forecasts show no real change over the next 6 months? Going from 1 CDN = 0.85 USD to a possible increase of 1 CDN = 0.86 USD?

That is the forecast, which is good only until it turns out to be right, or turns out to be wrong.

[n8hutch]

I have heard that Syrup sales are strong. Why wouldn't the Federation Raise the bulk price? Do they have people who study the effects of raising bulk prices and the relationship to retail sales, one might think that if the price was raised production would go up & the supply would also go up resulting in a lower price anyway. It would seem to me that the only way this industry can grow is through better marketing_ leading to more sales ,thus lowering the supply & raising the price. I stopped at a Maplefields gas station in Morrisville Vt last weekend & they had gallons of syrup for 40$ . that doesn't seem like much of a profit margin for even a big packer. At 2.50 lb they would have 27.50 in the syrup, 2.00 dollars in the container , & never mind the shipping & handling of the syrup . how many times was it handled. I guess my point is. What's in it for them to sell retail at 40.00$ a gallon . sure doesn't add up for me.

[GeneralStark]

I have heard that Syrup sales are strong. Why wouldn't the Federation Raise the bulk price? Do they have people who study the effects of raising bulk prices and the relationship to retail sales, one might think that if the price was raised production would go up & the supply would also go up resulting in a lower price anyway. It would seem to me that the only way this industry can grow is through better marketing_ leading to more sales ,thus lowering the supply & raising the price. I stopped at a Maplefields gas station in Morrisville Vt last weekend & they had gallons of syrup for 40$ . that doesn't seem like much of a profit margin for even a big packer. At 2.50 lb they would have 27.50 in the syrup, 2.00 dollars in the container , & never mind the shipping & handling of the syrup . how many times was it handled. I guess my point is. What's in it for them to sell retail at 40.00$ a gallon . sure doesn't add up for me.

I can't speak to the Federation's pricing system, but I do know that the owners of the Maplefields chain own a large sugaring operation in Franklin County, so they are not buying from a packer. If you were to look at the prices of their smaller containers of syrup, they are making a pretty good profit margin. Even with the gallons they are doing alright for essentially a large retail operation.

[n8hutch]

That makes sense for them I guess. They sure do have nice convenience stores so they must be doing something right.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I have heard that Syrup sales are strong. .
Because US syrup tastes better than CA because of the mineral make up of our soil is so much better that allows our trees to produce a better flavor:lol::lol::lol::lol: so our syrup sells better and should for a higher price. People who sell their syrup for cheap only hurting themselves. I have actually sold some Good tasting C lately for 2.50lb.

[maple flats]

If each of us didn't think our syrup is better than everyone else makes maybe we shouldn't continue making syrup, but lets not get into that game.

[GeneralStark]

Because US syrup tastes better than CA because of the mineral make up of our soil is so much better that allows our trees to produce a better flavor:lol::lol::lol::lol: so our syrup sells better and should for a higher price. People who sell their syrup for cheap only hurting themselves. I have actually sold some Good tasting C lately for 2.50lb.

I think you mean "Very Dark Strong".

[BreezyHill]

Actually you've got that totally reversed.

Thanks Dr. Tim...guess I should heed those warnings on those strong pain killers and not operate equipment when you are talking them. Wow I couldn't tell up from down for a few hours. Thanks!

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

just having some fun:lol:

[Hop Kiln Road]

The US bulk price is going to drift down while the US retail price is going to drift up, regardless of the weather.

The US/Loonie exchange rate controlling the price of US syrup is currently dependent on how the oil debt unravels since the Canadian tar sands projects have the highest production costs while their west coast exporting to Asia is under the most price pressure. And nobody knows how much of the debt is serviceable nor who holds it. As was just demonstrated by the Swiss uncoupling their franc from the Euro, currency/commodity wars are volatile and caustic environments.

The Saudis are going to pump cheap oil to protect their markets. But our little maple currency/commodity inequality's immediate problem is 80% of the syrup sold in the US is Canadian syrup. And we have done nothing to protect, and little to develop, our market. I believe the Canadian "Strategic" Reserve is just that, foremost a hedge again their climatic inability to grow sugar beets, which the Russians, the Euro Zone and the Americans all can and less about controlling the price of syrup .

So a myriad of politically controlled currencies are trying to coexist in the global marketplace, which is debt based and demands 3%+ GNP growth. The only way the system can possibly work is everyone to become a net exporter.

But then an annual 10 million gallon syrup production only requires 40 million people to buy a quart and there are 6.5 billion on the planet, so it shouldn't be much of a problem, eh?

[tuckermtn]

Now if the Canadian Dollar got stronger, say it became worth $0.90 US Dollars. Now we'd have to take Canadian $2.92/lb and multiply it by 0.90, with the result that the syrup would cost me US $2.63 .

Now instead if the Canadian Dollar continues to weaken, maybe down to $0.80 US Dollars. That means the packer would pay $2.92 x 0.90, or US $2.34.

Canadian dollar is now at $0.79 US Dollars. Canadian made equipment sold in US not getting cheaper, but bulk price likely headed down...

[Hop Kiln Road]

Eric, I saw that Friday. So about a $.71 Loonie converts to $2US/lb for syrup, right? And just about everything points to a stronger US$ right now. But nobody knows the size of the 2015 crop nor, I suspect, the Federation politics, like the book cost of their reserve, whether to increase or shrink it since their budgets must be shrinking, etc. I suspect they won't add or sell inventory knowing the currency ratio will eventually turn and this gives them an opportunity to expand export production. Be well. Bruce

[GeneralStark]

The news from Quebec, at least according to post #11, is that prices will likely stay the same...

[Mapledawg]

So disappointed we rolled over for international grading. For many years, our past producers set a standard, created a niche and now we can enjoy international market manipulation. Great for mass production types, but horrible for the small producers. Chalk one up....

[Moser's Maple]

you still have a niche, you still have a market, you can still use the term fancy, over difference I'm seeing is customers from any area have a standard identifying name and description.

[Mapledawg]

Bottom line, like the forum states , "Business side of things", I am taking bulk orders for sales of quality "Fancy" Vt syrup. How much would you like?

[wiam]

A very large part of the international standards where set by Vermont producers. We can still use the Fancy descriptor. I have been using the new grades since last season and have heard no complaints from customers.

[Squaredeal]

Exchange rates for farmers in two words: Belarus tractors.

[tuckermtn]

Anyone have any recent bulk pricing to report?

[brookledge]

heard bascom was at 2.35. Im assuming for Amber

[maplwrks]

Bascom dropped price on Dark Robust to 2.25 lb yesterday. Stated they don't need it.

[markct]

Could someone elaborate on the belarus tractor comment? It apparently went over my head as im not versed in exchange rates altho i have worked on a few Belarus tractors

[wdchuck]

Goodrich's has a sign up for $2.30/lb top 3 grades, $1.80 Very Dark....or whatever its called now .Let's see if he follows suit.

[sapman]

Called Bascom Tuesday. They said very dark/commercial or whatever was 1.90 and off flavored only 1.00.

[DaveB]

Prices are certainly lower than they have been. If any Connecticut producers are looking for a better price, PM me. I'd hate to see our syrup go like that!

[Squaredeal]

Belarus tractors were/are junky tractors that even the Russians hate, but they were imported by the thousands because they were cheap to begin with and made even cheaper by the falling ruble of the early 90's. Importers and dealers made millions while farmers were left holding the bag. I visited a few Estonian farms back in the day and on one the farmer had to torch off the side of the cab so that he could fit in. I had a hard time translating what he kept referring to it as until I figured out he was calling it a "Russian piece of $#@t". On the other hand, his prized possession was a Ford Pinto that he had traded hay for with a Finnish farmer.

[DrTimPerkins]

Called Bascom Tuesday. They said very dark/commercial or whatever was 1.90 and off flavored only 1.00.

This is because the Federation started selling very dark and off-flavored syrup at a discount. The packers won't pay more for it than they can get it from Canada after factoring in the exchange rate.

[hookhill]

This what was quoted over the phone from Highland Sugarworks for existing customers:

Top three grades-2.45
Very Dark-2.35

+ .03 cents per pound if you deliver in your own barrels.

[sapman]

To sell to Highland do you have to haul it to them in Vermont?

[spud]

To sell to Highland do you have to haul it to them in Vermont?

You're going to have to do more then that. Not only will you have to bring it to them but then you're going to have to unload it. When your done that you might have to jug it also. When you're all done that then you will have to try finding someone that will write you a check. Don't call them because they don't answer the phone. The talk is their shutting down soon.

Spud

[Mark]

You're going to have to do more then that. Not only will you have to bring it to them but then you're going to have to unload it. When your done that you might have to jug it also. When you're all done that then you will have to try finding someone that will write you a check. Don't call them because they don't answer the phone. The talk is their shutting down soon.

Spud
Googled Highland and this is what came up for me. http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/entrepreneurial-dream-team-sets-sights-on-marijuana/Content?oid=2553560

[spud]

Jim would be so proud. I hope they plan on paying more than $2.35 a pound for the jungle lettuce. What a bunch of losers.

Spud

[jmayerl]

They have partnered with roth sugarbush in wausua and are purchasing and shipping from central wisco

[n8hutch]

[QUOTE=spud;281924]Jim would be so proud. I hope they plan on paying more than $2.35 a pound for the jungle lettuce. What a bunch of losers.

Spud[/QUOTE
Lol . not to side track this thread too much but , do people really believe making Pot legal is going to work out in the end? I guess if 1/2 the population is going to sit at home & not work ,they might as well be stoned out of their minds too.

[tuckermtn]

Lol . not to side track this thread too much but , do people really believe making Pot legal is going to work out in the end? I guess if 1/2 the population is going to sit at home & not work ,they might as well be stoned out of their minds too.

i hop on the hijack thread...

it reminds me of Aldous Huxley's book, Brave New World. IN 1932 he predicted a quasi-dystopian future where to get through the day, the majority of masses took a drug called Soma. With the governments whole-hearted approval...probably the best book I read in my british lit class in 1987...

[Homestead Maple]

Looks like they may have a different plan. http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/entrepreneurial-dream-team-sets-sights-on-marijuana/Content?oid=2553560

These people are only in it for the money, they aren't concerned with what jungle lettuce will do to the user.

Marijuana impinges on the central nervous system by attaching to brain's neurons and interfering with normal communication between the neurons. These nerves respond by altering their initial behavior. For example, if a nerve is suppose to assist one in retrieving short-term memory, cannabinoids receptors make them do the opposite. So if one has to remember what he did five minutes ago, after smoking a high dose of marijuana, he has trouble. Marijuana plant contains 400 chemicals and 60 of them are cannabinoids, which are psychoactive compounds that are produced inside the body after cannabis is metabolized or is extorted from the cannabis plant. Cannabinoids is an active ingredient of marijuana. The most psychoactive cannabinoids chemical in marijuana that has the biggest impact on the brain is tetrahydrocannibol, or THC. THC is the main active ingredient in marijuana because it affects the brain by binding to and activating specific receptors, known as cannabinoid receptors. "These receptors control memory, thought, concentration, time and depth, and coordinated movement. THC also affects the production, release or re-uptake (a regulating mechanism) of various neurotransmitters."(2) Neurotransmitters are chemical messenger molecules that carry signals between neurons. Some of these affects are personality disturbances, depression and chronic anxiety. Psychiatrists who treat schizophrenic patient advice them to not use this drug because marijuana can trigger "severe mental disturbances and cause a relapse"!

[sapmaple]

I Don't think Pot is worse then a lot of legal stuff out there and if the government wants more money (and they always do) then its a good source of tax revenue
stop taxing us land owners and employers and let the pot heads pay in!
As for Highland sugarworks I'm don't think Judy has controlling interest in the company if at all (I could be wrong) But Karen (Jim's second wife owns and runs the company) They have paid a higher amout for bulk syrup then anyone so far this year and I'm very happy to be one of there producers!! If they were folding then I don't think they'd be filling there ware house ( My goal is to make the best syrup I can and there stated goals are to sell the best product they can so "end of story!! "
These people are only in it for the money, they aren't concerned with what jungle lettuce will do to the user.

Marijuana impinges on the central nervous system by attaching to brain's neurons and interfering with normal communication between the neurons. These nerves respond by altering their initial behavior. For example, if a nerve is suppose to assist one in retrieving short-term memory, cannabinoids receptors make them do the opposite. So if one has to remember what he did five minutes ago, after smoking a high dose of marijuana, he has trouble. Marijuana plant contains 400 chemicals and 60 of them are cannabinoids, which are psychoactive compounds that are produced inside the body after cannabis is metabolized or is extorted from the cannabis plant. Cannabinoids is an active ingredient of marijuana. The most psychoactive cannabinoids chemical in marijuana that has the biggest impact on the brain is tetrahydrocannibol, or THC. THC is the main active ingredient in marijuana because it affects the brain by binding to and activating specific receptors, known as cannabinoid receptors. "These receptors control memory, thought, concentration, time and depth, and coordinated movement. THC also affects the production, release or re-uptake (a regulating mechanism) of various neurotransmitters."(2) Neurotransmitters are chemical messenger molecules that carry signals between neurons. Some of these affects are personality disturbances, depression and chronic anxiety. Psychiatrists who treat schizophrenic patient advice them to not use this drug because marijuana can trigger "severe mental disturbances and cause a relapse"!

[Trem5]

You're going to have to do more then that. Not only will you have to bring it to them but then you're going to have to unload it. When your done that you might have to jug it also. When you're all done that then you will have to try finding someone that will write you a check. Don't call them because they don't answer the phone. The talk is their shutting down soon.

Spudto reply to your remarks, many places have you deliver your syrup. They will unload it for you at highland, it just may take a little patience at a busy time. Not sure what you mean by having to jug it...if you're talking sample bottles then that is a very normal practice that no one else has had a problem with. I have never had a problem with them not answering their phones and in fact they are very nice to deal with. And to set your gossip straight...they are definitely not "shutting down soon". By the way, Judy has not had anything to do with Highland Sugarworks for many years. What she does is her own business. I have delt with Highland for many years and they have always been great! I'm sure Jim is very proud!

[hookhill]

Yes Highland has been easy to deal with. We use to make the 2 hour+ trip to Bascoms and got paid less. Highland is 15 minutes away and pays more. Sounds like a win win.

[Sappy One]

Just to clarify and put a stop to these silly rumors, Judy has NOT been involved with the company for at least ten or more years and holds no interest whatsoever. When she and Jim divorced, he bought her interest as part of their settlement. Since Jim's tragic passing, Karen, a woman who Jim loved and had a second child with, has taken over 100% of the company's ownership and operations. Since, Highland has experienced record growth and has no intentions of going anywhere but up and onward. Jim would be proud indeed!

[lmathews]

Is there contact info for Highland?

[BreezyHill]

Lol . not to side track this thread too much but , do people really believe making Pot legal is going to work out in the end? I guess if 1/2 the population is going to sit at home & not work ,they might as well be stoned out of their minds too.

i hop on the hijack thread...

it reminds me of Aldous Huxley's book, Brave New World. IN 1932 he predicted a quasi-dystopian future where to get through the day, the majority of masses took a drug called Soma. With the governments whole-hearted approval...probably the best book I read in my british lit class in 1987...


Eric, You have summed up thing very well again!

The plan is that Pot, jungle weed, grass, mellows the masses and makes them...careless about reality and more about getting their supply. Mellow masses wont fight gun control, added taxation, more gov't control, etc...



When I was in EMS I saw many people on many things and pot is the lesser of all the evils...but...I don't think it is a great idea to legalize it for the masses. For those that are in pain from cancer, glaucoma, and many other things then it is just another way of getting them thru the day. I have seen friends and family on those down days and it makes my worst day seem like a walk in the park, and makes the good days like heaven; but that is no way to live your average day of life.

Every day is a gift...enjoy the gift or throw it away...I hope, we all choose to enjoy the gift and bring sunshine and Maple Sweetness to others.
Those that throw it away don't realize what they have wasted until it is too late.

We are on a downward spiral and all you need to do is watch some of the moves of the future made a few years ago and there is so much that was fiction that is history now.

On another hijacking...becareful of your equipment...our area is seeing a huge jump in theft and the other night a farm that had no power was burned to the ground...no wire or pipes in the ashes..all gone. They are trying to cover their tracks better now I was told. Buddys bulk tanks had all the none bolted down stainless taken, even the valves.

Watch your stuff and your neighbor's stuff.

Ben

[tuckermtn]

i sold bulk to Highland in 2013 and they were excellent to deal with. i pulled up to the loading dock with 4 barrels in my little Tacoma and there was someone there to help me unload in a minute, despite the fact that they were unloading a tractor trailer right next to me with hundreds of barrels. Prompt payment, barrels were spotless upon return, etc. Definitely would sell to them again...

[Trem5]

They have a web site www.highlandsugarworks.com will give you contact info.....

[tuckermtn]

also worth mentioning for bulk buyers - fellow MapleTrader Parker is looking to broker a bunch of table grade syrup from Maine, NH and Vermont. Check out post in classifieds. he can be reached at 603-491-0082...

[Parker]

Had a great trip to vermont. I would like to agine thank those who took the time too meet with us. It was a privilage to see such amazing sugarhouses producing the very finest product and where the pride in a job well done is so evident! Thank you parker

[chevypower]

Just to add, we too have been very happy with Highland Sugarworks and we have talked to them 4 or 5 times over the last month or so with no problems reaching someone.

[Randy Brutkoski]

I dont know why pud, i mean spud is saying any of this anyway. The guy doesnt even make the finished product. So how would he even know anything about a packer. He is just stirring it up again. He does this very well. I guess he just gets bored when all he has to do is maintain vacuum. just sayin

[super sappy]

Lol lol lol lol lol

[spud]

I dont know why pud, i mean spud is saying any of this anyway. The guy doesnt even make the finished product. So how would he even know anything about a packer. He is just stirring it up again. He does this very well. I guess he just gets bored when all he has to do is maintain vacuum. just sayin

HighLand just lost their largest customer this year ( 25,000-30,000 Gallons ) due to not answering their phones or returning calls. Spandy I mean Randy I probably make more money selling sap then you make selling syrup. I make money you make mistakes. You better keep zoooooming around in the potato chip truck.:lol:

Spud

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

i called monday phone rang twice a lady took name and all information, I had a return phone call in 24 hrs from Greg. I with you Randy puds:o needs to just keep going to his Mary K meetings:lol: and leave the sugaring to us who want to take a great thing foreward to the next generation

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Federation set price for this year and next year at $ 2.92, so whatever the exchange rate is what sets price for US unless there is a shortage. Current is about 80 cents per dollar, so would be 2.92 divided by 1.25 unless I am wrong on the conversion aspect.

[Randy Brutkoski]

I had alot of problems during the season but i was still was happy with .40 gallons per tap. Chips are just about done. Selling my route in 2 weeks.

[highlandcattle]

I'm terribly confused. I thought this was about this year's bulk prices?! Anyone have the figures?

[sapmaple]

The exchange rate today (been coming up the last week or so ) is .8245 so you times 2.92 by .8245 =$2.41 so that puts Highland at or above and Bascom and others below Personally I would like to see $2.75 a lb. I think at that rate everyone can still make money. I get why its tied to the exchange rate but I've been thinking if producers were to form a co-op of our own we could have some say as to what we get paid (Just throwing it out there)
Federation set price for this year and next year at $ 2.92, so whatever the exchange rate is what sets price for US unless there is a shortage. Current is about 80 cents per dollar, so would be 2.92 divided by 1.25 unless I am wrong on the conversion aspect.

[spud]

I had alot of problems during the season but i was still was happy with .40 gallons per tap. Chips are just about done. Selling my route in 2 weeks.

Randy- I am glad you had a good season. I had my share of problems this season also (CV2 spouts with pin hole leaks ). Are you selling the route so you can be a full time underwear model? :)

Spud

[spud]

The exchange rate today (been coming up the last week or so ) is .8245 so you times 2.92 by .8245 =$2.41 so that puts Highland at or above and Bascom and others below Personally I would like to see $2.75 a lb. I think at that rate everyone can still make money. I get why its tied to the exchange rate but I've been thinking if producers were to form a co-op of our own we could have some say as to what we get paid (Just throwing it out there)

I agree 100% with you. There was talk last season that Franklin County Vermont was looking into forming a co-op but I have not heard anymore about it. Some of the bigger producers in our area like Brannon's have gone out and found their own market and I think thats great. Forming a co-op might not mean more money for us though. If a packer does not want to buy our syrup at our desired price they can just buy it from Canada. If a newly formed co-op found their own market in the US or overseas that could be a bigger pay day for us.

Spud

[Randy Brutkoski]

I am done with the underwear model thing.I got sick of hearing people ask me if i pop viagra all day. My kids are 7 and 3 and i dont want them to look in a magazine ad and see there father half naked. Selling my potato chip route and buying a peperidge farm bread route.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

The exchange rate today (been coming up the last week or so ) is .8245 so you times 2.92 by .8245 =$2.41 so that puts Highland at or above and Bascom and others below Personally I would like to see $2.75 a lb. I think at that rate everyone can still make money. I get why its tied to the exchange rate but I've been thinking if producers were to form a co-op of our own we could have some say as to what we get paid (Just throwing it out there)
this is how i see it, like hedge funds with oil. Some "possible " world conflict "might" happen and the oil prices go up. I feel "SOME" large bulk buyers use the exchange rate which has nothing to do with our syrup to DROP the prices on us producers so they can make more money off our backs. As far as I'm concerned WE DON'T NEED CANADA!! OR THEIR MONEY EHH.
Just think about it we have invaded almost every other country in the world except Canada, ask yourself why? They dont have anything we want or need.

[DaveB]

this is how i see it, like hedge funds with oil. Some "possible " world conflict "might" happen and the oil prices go up. I feel "SOME" large bulk buyers use the exchange rate which has nothing to do with our syrup to DROP the prices on us producers so they can make more money off our backs. As far as I'm concerned WE DON'T NEED CANADA!! OR THEIR MONEY EHH.
Just think about it we have invaded almost every other country in the world except Canada, ask yourself why? They dont have anything we want or need.

Does someone have statistics on how much syrup the U.S. consumes vs what it produces? If we use or sell more than we produce, then we actually do need to buy syrup from Canada and have to buy it with Canadian dollars so the exchange rate does come into play.

[ryebrye]

Federation set price for this year and next year at $ 2.92, so whatever the exchange rate is what sets price for US unless there is a shortage. Current is about 80 cents per dollar, so would be 2.92 divided by 1.25 unless I am wrong on the conversion aspect.

If you are lazy like me, you can use Google to do the conversion for you. Just search for "2.92 cad to USD" and it comes up with the latest rates.

https://www.google.com/search?q=2.92+cad+to+usd

[CBOYER]

....

Just think about it we have invaded almost every other country in the world except Canada, ask yourself why? They dont have anything we want or need.

USA try this in 1812, and were kick-*** out of here... and after we burn the White house, thats why you will never try again... Canada's Rules...:cool:

[markcasper]

Heard today that a bulk buyer in Wisconsin is paying 2.25 for light, medium, dark and 1.60 for filtered commercial. In 2006 commercial was bringing 1.80--unfiltered.

[Clinkis]

this is how i see it, like hedge funds with oil. Some "possible " world conflict "might" happen and the oil prices go up. I feel "SOME" large bulk buyers use the exchange rate which has nothing to do with our syrup to DROP the prices on us producers so they can make more money off our backs. As far as I'm concerned WE DON'T NEED CANADA!! OR THEIR MONEY EHH.
Just think about it we have invaded almost every other country in the world except Canada, ask yourself why? They dont have anything we want or need.

Just our oil and clean water.....so glad you look so fondly on us. I'm sure I could say some nasty things in return but won't stoop to your level. IF you understand anything how international business works you would know that bulk buyers can purchase maple syrup at a reduced price from Canada because of the exchange rate thus it reduces your price. Us average Canadians don't set the exchange rate. It's mainly fluctuations in macro-economic factors in the US that determine exchange rates not Canada. When I built my RO this year all the components I ordered from the U.S. cost me 20% more then they would have last year and you didn't hear me on here slamming the US because of it. Pretty much everything Canadians purchase right now is more expensive because prices for most things are based on the U.S. exchange rate. The reason the exchange rate is so high is because US economy is doing well so you should be greatful about that.

[spud]

this is how i see it, like hedge funds with oil. Some "possible " world conflict "might" happen and the oil prices go up. I feel "SOME" large bulk buyers use the exchange rate which has nothing to do with our syrup to DROP the prices on us producers so they can make more money off our backs. As far as I'm concerned WE DON'T NEED CANADA!! OR THEIR MONEY EHH.
Just think about it we have invaded almost every other country in the world except Canada, ask yourself why? They dont have anything we want or need.

Flat Lander please put the bottle down and take a deep breath. Sounds like you're still mad about the two French lady's that left you on the side of the road with only you're THONGS on. We need Canada but we may need to invade your home.:lol:

Spud

[huxta]

USA try this in 1812, and were kick-*** out of here... and after we burn the White house, thats why you will never try again... Canada's Rules...:cool:
actually, it was the British that burned the white house. It was "in part" retaliation for the American raid of port Dover in canada. Which America won and destroyed the port. But don't worry, we still love our neighbor. ;)

[sapmaple]

I for one am glad to have Canada as a neighbor I feel very safe going over the border as I have done many times as opposed to the border to our south where a lot of nasty things go on i.e. the drug cartel I've met a lot of Canadians at NASCAR races and they are great people Last year at Martinsville two young couples were camping next to us and we got to know them over several games of beer pong! You mentioned Oil and clean water I'll add electricity and natural gas also when I buy steel it seems to always come from Canada as well as wood products We are all in this Maple gig together so let's market our product to the rest of the world and we will all reap the benefits of the fruits of our labor
Just our oil and clean water.....so glad you look so fondly on us. I'm sure I could say some nasty things in return but won't stoop to your level. IF you understand anything how international business works you would know that bulk buyers can purchase maple syrup at a reduced price from Canada because of the exchange rate thus it reduces your price. Us average Canadians don't set the exchange rate. It's mainly fluctuations in macro-economic factors in the US that determine exchange rates not Canada. When I built my RO this year all the components I ordered from the U.S. cost me 20% more then they would have last year and you didn't hear me on here slamming the US because of it. Pretty much everything Canadians purchase right now is more expensive because prices for most things are based on the U.S. exchange rate. The reason the exchange rate is so high is because US economy is doing well so you should be greatful about that.

[Clinkis]

I for one am glad to have Canada as a neighbor I feel very safe going over the border as I have done many times as opposed to the border to our south where a lot of nasty things go on i.e. the drug cartel I've met a lot of Canadians at NASCAR races and they are great people Last year at Martinsville two young couples were camping next to us and we got to know them over several games of beer pong! You mentioned Oil and clean water I'll add electricity and natural gas also when I buy steel it seems to always come from Canada as well as wood products We are all in this Maple gig together so let's market our product to the rest of the world and we will all reap the benefits of the fruits of our labor

Very well said, and behalf of all Canadians thankyou for your kind words. I understand peoples frustration when their business is negatively impacted by factors beyond their control but I really don't think it's necessary to make ignorant and misinformed comments about each other's country. As you said, we are all in this together.

[Randy Brutkoski]

The last time i played beer pong i was only wearing underwear.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Flat Lander please put the bottle down and take a deep breath. Sounds like you're still mad about the two French lady's that left you on the side of the road with only you're THONGS on. We need Canada but we may need to invade your home.:lol:

Spud
shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Spud nobody knew about that, oh and Knob Creak Smoked Maple is very good

been to Canada once and personal experience with a few dancers wasn't the best, as soon as they found out we didn't speak French they stopped coming to our table.

well just pissed we bust our butts (now I know how farmers feel) to make a quality product and dont get paid what its worth, and I heard yesterday "some one" has set the price of bulk for two years out, true or not I don't know.

[chevypower]

I'm curious if anyone knows if US maple syrup can be commercially imported into Canada like theirs is here in the US. I know the US has quotas on certain things being imported into the US such as dairy and I've been wondering if they have something similar in regards to maple syrup.

[DrTimPerkins]

Yes, maple syrup can and does go across the border in both directions.

[highlandcattle]

We sold our syrup Sat. Prices for grade A $2.30 other grades much lower. I had read No more goop, but on the posted notice still saw they are taking fermented. Ugh.

[batsofbedlam]

On a call to Bascom's this morning, they said that the bulk price would not be set for another month by the Quebec Federation. Bascom's is presently buying all Grade A @ $2.35/lb. and any other grade @ $2.00/lb. delivered.

[batsofbedlam]

Has anyone heard if the bulk price for syrup for 2015 has been set? I have customers waiting for payment for sap I purchased.

[doocat]

Bascoms paid $2.30 last week.

It may be $2.35 if you drop at the door but we sold through dealer.

[unc23win]

Bascoms paid $2.30 last week.

It may be $2.35 if you drop at the door but we sold through dealer.

I got $2.30 as well and I think you are right about the delivery.

[GeneralStark]

According to a post in this thread the federation set the price at $2.92 can so at today's exchange rate that is $2.42 us. Clearly different buyers are at or below that.

For pricing sap it probably makes sense to use whatever price a buyer for your syrup would pay. I know a couple folks that locked in at last year's bulk prices for sap.

[unc23win]

I think it depends on the divider one said it was $2.92/1.25=$2.336 and $2.43 would be $2.92/1.20=$2.433 apparently most buyers are using $2.30

[sjdoyon]

Bascom usually pays the lowest. I for one can't afford to sell to him.

[doocat]

Who do you sell to? I would travel if it was worth it. Other than highland and bascom who buys?

[sjdoyon]

There are numerous buyers in Vermont who pay better prices. I don't want to advocate one or the other.

[220 maple]

Just a rumor, I heard one of the bulk buyers down south is paying 2.10 a pound. I believe he ships a lot of bulk to some broker up north? I guess I got lucky I sold 900 pound plus for 2.80 in March.

Mark 220 Maple

[vtmapleman]

Highland Sugarworks is not buying from any new suppliers at this time...from what I understand they will be making the decision in a couple of weeks how much if any they will be buying from a 'new' suppliers.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Highland Sugarworks is not buying from any new suppliers at this time...from what I understand they will be making the decision in a couple of weeks how much if any they will be buying from a 'new' suppliers.
must be something new, they took me as a new supplier a couple weeks ago.

[spud]

must be something new, they took me as a new supplier a couple weeks ago.

A new supplier for what? :lol:

Spud

[maplwrks]

They like to see what their regular suppliers have for them. They stay loyal to these folks to keep them coming back. It won't be too awful long before they will be looking for more syrup. Give them a call--Talk to Greg. He will fill you in.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

A new supplier for what? :lol:

Spud
Helium injection kits

[220 maple]

Costco price today for organic certified Canadian maple syrup, 12.79 for 1.05qts, price per quart 12.181. I selling my non organic for 14.00 per quart. As the bulk prices drops so does the retail price.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

right there proves it US maple holds its value better than canada eh :lol:. Im getting 15/18 a quart, I tell people 18 when they pull out 15 I take it unless they happen to have 18 on them. Same with 1/2's tell them 28 when they pull out 25 done deal.

So bulk gallon is 26 right now I believe.
26 gal 28
13 1/2 15
6.5 QT 8.5
3.25 PT 5.25
+2 dollars for containers, so they are getting like 43% mark up

[JoeJ]

I was talking with a friend about the potential bulk price for 2016 and the effect of the Canadian exchange rate on the price. So the question came up, how can the bulk buyers replace Vermont syrup that is supplied to buyers who demand Vermont syrup with Canadian syrup? Or for that matter, how can you replace syrup from New York for people who want New York syrup with Canadian syrup? You can't. I wonder how many customers the bulk buyers have that demand Vermont syrup? Are they using the exchange rate as an excuse for dropping the price for a product (Vermont syrup) that can't be obtained anywhere else except in Vermont?

[unc23win]

Seems to me that the syrup is sold as syrup from whatever state or country it is packed in. This is where the new international standards come in it is all suppose to be graded the same.

If a buyer wants syrup from a particular state they would be better off to skip the middle man and go to the source.

My understanding (having never seen it in person) is that once the syrup reaches the bulk buyer for repackaging barrels are selected by color and taste and dumped into huge tanks where they blend it the result is whatever color and taste the packer wants.

Your certificate or license allows you to produce syrup from your home state so if you buy my syrup bulk (hint) you can pack it and sell it as your own. Although I am pretty sure you can sell PA syrup in Vermont as long as it was packed in PA, sales probably would go up ha ha.

[n8hutch]

I wouldn't put it past some Packers to be misleading in their product labeling. As far as what state or province the syrup came from, Does anyone actually keep track of what is going in a warehouse and what is going out as far as state to state or what remains in inventory.

I know a local Farm stand that makes about 20 gallons of syrup per year but sells closers to 400 gallons. I don't know where he buys his bulk syrup, but who is watching to make sure it's not bulk syrup made in NH labeled as pure Maine maple syrup when it is sold?

[BreezyHill]

Joe you have hit a nail on the head. I know a place that bought from a NY producer yet the signs around the outside of the store say VT syrup. Our syrup is 98% VT trees but the sugar house is 225' to far west to make VT Syrup. So we simply sell as NY and make just as much money.

But look at Certified Angus Meat...It does not have to come from solely angus cattle just black hide and meat all the grade requirements.

[DrTimPerkins]

Does anyone actually keep track of what is going in a warehouse and what is going out as far as state to state or what remains in inventory.

That would depend upon where you are. Some places do have tracking requirements for syrup, some don't....or at least don't follow up on it.

When you go into the warehouses of the larger packers, they do have the syrup segregated by origin and grade (typically that is VT syrup, all other US syrup, and Canadian syrup for each grade, and then organic and conventional), often both in drums and in large tanks, so I would assume if they go to the trouble (and cost) of keeping it separated, they probably sell it that way if a customer requests a syrup from a certain place. The premium a packer would pay for certain origin syrup has pretty much disappeared. I suspect that many industrial buyers don't care much where it comes from. So why do they not go straight to the source......quality control. Most of the large packer/processors spend a fair amount of time and effort (and expense) at measuring and documenting quality parameters and product origin and sending out letters of compliance. In addition, they deal with a good number of inspections from the companies they deal with and regulators. This FAR exceeds what a typical producer would do.

[DrTimPerkins]

I know a place that bought from a NY producer yet the signs around the outside of the store say VT syrup.

Whether this is legal or not would depend upon the label of the syrup container. They might sell Vermont syrup, and they might also sell US and/or Canadian origin syrup. Without knowing all the details it is hard to say for sure whether this person is complying with the law or not, but we can't assume just from the fact that they bought NY syrup that they are breaking the law. Once anyone in Vermont buys a certain amount of syrup for resale, they must send reports to the VT Agency of Agriculture specifying the amounts and origin of the syrup sold.

[BreezyHill]

I am thinking it is against the law since an employee asked if it was legal to put VT Pure Maple over NY stickers. He was helping us label last year and was full of questions about grades and State labels.

[sapmaple]

So my Question is where is the tipping point(when our bulk price is not hinged on the exchanged rate) when packers simply can't get enough syrup to fill there orders from Quebec? ( I understand they are going to increase taps by two million or so) or when the US makes at least as much as they do or more? as of today the rate is .72 Which translate to 2.10 a pound, that's would be a 25% drop in price in the last 3 years on the US side. If the price goes below $2.00 lb. would be great for packers but difficult for producers!

[DrTimPerkins]

If the packers were unable to get enough syrup to meet their market demand, then it is highly likely prices would rise (both in the US and Canada). At that time the laws of supply and demand would come more into play. With the strategic reserve in Quebec, and any carry-over that packers might have in their warehouses, that effect might be more dampened than you would otherwise expect.

[GeneralStark]

A couple bad seasons would certainly bring up the price.

[BreezyHill]

$2.00 a pound is the mystical break even point that I had heard from large producer.

So we could see some large producers reduce tap counts until prices rebound and profitability is more obtainable.

But the $2/# price point was when crude was much higher so with crude at +-$37/ barrel; the break even point is lower than $2 but how much is the Million $ ?

Most will hate this reference but...every time that break even point in milk is reached farms sell off or cull cows. It has been happening for about 6 weeks and is lowering the price of beef 8-10 cents a week in our local auction house the past 2 weeks. The slide in milk has nearly stopped but not turning up as of yet.

So what do some think the price point will be?

Ben

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I am thinking it is against the law since an employee asked if it was legal to put VT Pure Maple over NY stickers.

only if you want to sell more syrup:D

[spud]

If the packers were unable to get enough syrup to meet their market demand, then it is highly likely prices would rise (both in the US and Canada). At that time the laws of supply and demand would come more into play. With the strategic reserve in Quebec, and any carry-over that packers might have in their warehouses, that effect might be more dampened than you would otherwise expect.

Does anyone know how much is in the Quebec reserve right now? I know they want to keep a certain amount in reserve at all times. I would not be surprised at all if the price drops well below the $2 mark in the years to come. Is the world wide demand for maple syrup increasing?

Spud

[JoeJ]

The Quebec reserve is said to be at 62-63 million pounds. However, over 1/3 (about 25 million pounds) of the reserve is syrup that is evidently not table grade or good for anything else. At the October IMIS maple conference in Pennsylvania, a rep from the Federation said that they were selling substandard syrup for $1.00 a pound to move it out. About 3 weeks ago, I heard from a bulk buyer that the price was now $.75 a pound.
In the same round table discussion, it was said that demand was increasing about 10% a year.

[GeneralStark]

Weird. I was just paid $2/lb. for filtered commercial syrup which I was surprised given that the same buyer is paying 2.35 for the top grades. I suspect he has a buyer that needs it for something.

[DrTimPerkins]

So what do some think the price point will be?

The price point is very different for different people. Those with cost efficient operations will be able to weather low syrup prices much better than those with less efficient operations. Part of the issue is that people got used to getting close to $3.00/# for syrup when the Canadian $ was at par, and thus think the prices are really low now. They certainly are lower, but are still at the point where efficient operations can make decent money (but not as easily as they could a few years ago). The major difference is that the profit margins are lower now, thus rather than being something that slows down expansion, in some cases the drop in prices can stimulate expansion because those operations that are very efficient and want to have the same profit level will increase the number of taps to gain the additional income. Lower margin means more taps need to be employed to achieve the same profit level. For those that are less efficient, the drop in syrup prices can drop the profit into the red, and thus stop expansion in those operations.

Cost efficient doesn't necessarily mean high-tech. There are very cost efficient low-tech operations, and very cost efficient high tech operations. Conversely there are both low-tech and high-tech operations that aren't cost-efficient.

[DrTimPerkins]

Does anyone know how much is in the Quebec reserve right now? I know they want to keep a certain amount in reserve at all times. I would not be surprised at all if the price drops well below the $2 mark in the years to come. Is the world wide demand for maple syrup increasing?

Joe has the numbers right. A few years ago it was stated that the Federation would like to maintain a reserve of roughly least 40 million lbs, which might have actually gone up given that the total world demand for maple syrup has increased.

Demand is increasing at about a 10% annual rate, a good share of that for industrial (ingredient) use.

Whether syrup continues to drop in price will depend upon the Canadian currency value. Since the Canadian economy is (was) largely a petrodollar, we're probably near the bottom for that, but how the rest of the Canadian economy fares and what happens in comparison to the US economy will determine it's value against the US $. I don't see it getting a whole lot worse right off, and depending upon how fast oil rebounds, it might get gradually better. Then again, I'm not an economist, but I do like to dabble in the subject especially as it relates to maple syrup value.

[JoeJ]

General ,
Just to be clear, the $.75 a pound price is what the Federation is trying to sell the extremely sub standard (25 million pounds) syrup for.

[DrTimPerkins]

Just to be clear, the $.75 a pound price is what the Federation is trying to sell the extremely sub standard (25 million pounds) syrup for.

I believe, that at least for a period of time, packers who purchased from the Federation were required to accept a certain amount of this substandard syrup with every truckload, although they could return it (minus transportation costs). Apparently this didn't make a big enough dent in the supply of such syrup, so the Federation did drop the price to try to move more of it.

[Parker]

Dr tim.....if i wanted to be "extreamly cost efficiant",,,,,,,,i would go to .gov and get a grant for a new r.o and evaporator on the tax payers dime,,,,,just like in the dairy biz.....and just like the dairy biz is dealing wirh oversupply now, (what is the oversupply deduction in your milk check this week?),we will all be suffering from maple oversupply in the comming years.....i think that we will be lucky to get $2 a pound this year and thats really too bad,,,(canadas economy is not looking that great with the massive global downturn in demand for raw materials) how many u.s. taps have been added as a results of the grants? (If you can process more sap might as well add taps,,,,kinda like milking more cows).....A bunch of taps have been added as a result of "free money" is my guess, and that affects supply,,,alot.........im pretty simple and stubborn to a fault,,,,i know we should all join the crowed in the race to the bottom,,,,,,,i mean you must see maple ending up in a very simmilar situation as the dairy industry is now??
Not trying to be rude or demeaning ,,,just hate to see the mom and pops,,people that worked real hard for what they built,,the indapendent contractors and wildcatters get shafted by .gov and socialist policies.....(there is no such thing as free money,,someone somewhere will pay).....but,,,,thats the new reality i guess......

[markcasper]

I also heard this past weekend that Canada will be moving out, that there is a home for most of the substandard syrup. Where is it going and what products can they put this stuff into in order to utilize it?

[n8hutch]

While it's easy to compare the Maple Industry to the Dairy Industry The problems with each really are very Different.

I grew up on A dairy Farm & I remember Dumping our Milk because Agrimark was paying squat. It was really a scary time & in the end the Bank got the farm & some sucker got the Holsteins.

The Bulk price of Maple is Falling today because of the week Canadian Dollar. It is not falling from a lack of Demand or market saturation. You can still sell your bulk syrup even today. Maybe it's not as easy as it was a few years ago.

There's always going to be uncertainty in farming. You just got to keep working hard & you have to really want it.

[unc23win]

While it's easy to compare the Maple Industry to the Dairy Industry The problems with each really are very Different.

The Bulk price of Maple is Falling today because of the week Canadian Dollar. It is not falling from a lack of Demand or market saturation. You can still sell your bulk syrup even today. Maybe it's not as easy as it was a few years ago.

There's always going to be uncertainty in farming. You just got to keep working hard & you have to really want it.Couuldn't agree more great point.

[SWEETER CREATIONS]

Just a thought here , have we as producers become greedy ? More taps = more syrup , more syrup = more money. ?????

[BreezyHill]

While it's easy to compare the Maple Industry to the Dairy Industry The problems with each really are very Different.

I grew up on A dairy Farm & I remember Dumping our Milk because Agrimark was paying squat. It was really a scary time & in the end the Bank got the farm & some sucker got the Holsteins.


Sorry you cant see the similarities past the differences.

One being how the large producers will increase production units to utilize or maximize production equipment?

Another being how the changes of market price structure has the most the effect on the small producer more rapidly than large producers?

Ever notice how the small producers tend to make due with older equipment, less costly equipment, do most of the maintance on the premises themselves, build infrastructure themselves... as much as possible? Both rely on living breathing producers for their product. Mistreat your producer and they will reduce production, weather water a

What happens when NFO told producers to dump milk for a day or even for a week? The discarding of a few of the producers in the country dumping 1 365th of a years production didn't even cause a repel in the milk market...what would be the response to the same 1/10th% of producers in the Maple Industry dumping 1 365th of their production. It would make the news in some areas but in the price structure not even see a repel. When farmers went to Albany to dump their days milk on the steps of the Capital it was 3 farms out off over 1000. Made the news but didn't have the affect many thought it would.

Farming is the first legal form of gabbling; legal all across the world. Marketing is marketing all across the world.

There is so much similarity in business when one looks past the outer layers of the structure of the businesses and into the soul of supply and demand, reserves, exchange rates, and lets not over look the handful of main buyers and the direct marketing to consumers by many producers.

Both industries rely on a living breathing structure to produce a sellable product, weather, water, and nutrients are directly related to production. Today all across the country you can find farmers that produce the same way it was done in their respective industry as it was done 50 years ago and vacuum and VFDs are the latest ways to increase production and save energy for the farmers.

Yes they are very different industries but if you look closely you can learn so much from each other.

I was very lucky to attend classes as part of a grant that included Professors from Siena, University of Albany, Sage and another college I don't recall in the area.

It was a very enlightening 4 months.

Ben

[mellondome]

If we truely want maple and milk to feel the same, maybe maple should be traded on futures...so that is value is no longer dictated by the federation with currancy exchange issues... but rather by wall street traders.
Any yes, milk is "in the tank" right now because it was really high last year. Prompting those that could afford to expand to do so ( and make profit at the same time).

This seesaw effect is what the federation was created to buffer.

In the end, if you want more than bulk rate for your product, market it. Sell it to the consumer.

[n8hutch]

Breezy you be sure to let us know when the government starts buying out Maple operations and paying large land owners not to tap their trees. Oh and when there's equipment for sale for 10 cents on the dollar and land available for sale or rent for practically nothing.

Yes production has increased because of modern equipment but I am pretty sure you won't see large maple farms popping up in Florida &California.weather has a much larger effect on maple then dairy.

And maybe you should clean up your writing a little bit, sayingthings like sorry or enlightened doesn't make your points any better, it just makes you sound like a Jerk

[GeneralStark]

Sorry you cant see the similarities past the differences.

One being how the large producers will increase production units to utilize or maximize production equipment?

Another being how the changes of market price structure has the most the effect on the small producer more rapidly than large producers?

Ever notice how the small producers tend to make due with older equipment, less costly equipment, do most of the maintance on the premises themselves, build infrastructure themselves... as much as possible? Both rely on living breathing producers for their product. Mistreat your producer and they will reduce production, weather water a

What happens when NFO told producers to dump milk for a day or even for a week? The discarding of a few of the producers in the country dumping 1 365th of a years production didn't even cause a repel in the milk market...what would be the response to the same 1/10th% of producers in the Maple Industry dumping 1 365th of their production. It would make the news in some areas but in the price structure not even see a repel. When farmers went to Albany to dump their days milk on the steps of the Capital it was 3 farms out off over 1000. Made the news but didn't have the affect many thought it would.

Farming is the first legal form of gabbling; legal all across the world. Marketing is marketing all across the world.

There is so much similarity in business when one looks past the outer layers of the structure of the businesses and into the soul of supply and demand, reserves, exchange rates, and lets not over look the handful of main buyers and the direct marketing to consumers by many producers.

Both industries rely on a living breathing structure to produce a sellable product, weather, water, and nutrients are directly related to production. Today all across the country you can find farmers that produce the same way it was done in their respective industry as it was done 50 years ago and vacuum and VFDs are the latest ways to increase production and save energy for the farmers.

Yes they are very different industries but if you look closely you can learn so much from each other.

I was very lucky to attend classes as part of a grant that included Professors from Siena, University of Albany, Sage and another college I don't recall in the area.

It was a very enlightening 4 months.

Ben

Great. You know more about dairy than the rest of us thanks to your "enlightening" class. The title thread is "2015 Bulk Pricing" and that's bulk maple syrup in case you forgot.

Perhaps it is time for a new thread regarding 2016 pricing but until then, as the OP, I am going to have to ask that we keep it ON topic.

[PATheron]

I guess my thought on the bulk price is that it is going to be lower and we cant do anything about it really so we will just have to run our businesses accordingly. I think the only thing that we can do as producers that could help maybe a little is not to make any mersh. That will take that out of the supply. On a bad year a lot of that can be made that helps keep the packers with more syrup that they can be fed into the supply that can keep our price down. I think we are lucky that the federation exists or our syrup really would be worth nothing. We cant help that the us dollar is strong against the Canadian dollar. That is bringing our price down 25%. Cant do anything about that. Just have to run lean and deal with it. Make sure we do a good job on what we can control. Make sure we get all the good sap we can get. No down time with equipment when good sap is running. Just don't miss anything that can be gotten and try to keep our costs down and wait for oil to go back up so that the Canadian dollar gets closer to ours. Theron

[PATheron]

Ive never taken any classes anywhere and I don't know anything about pricing structures and frankly I don't even understand anything Breezy said. My business strategy is simple. Hook up all the maple trees I possably can that I can keep around 25 inches of vacuum on that I can more or less do myself. Make sure when I add all my expenses up that they are a good bit less than my gross syrup sales and repeat next year. That's my business strategy. Theron

[unc23win]

Just a thought here , have we as producers become greedy ? More taps = more syrup , more syrup = more money. ?????

In some cases I would say yes. For some it is as simple as some one said a desire to make the same amount of profit and for others it is a desire to expand and make more. However bulk pricing is really far more dependent on the Canadian dollar. Since Canada out produces the US by making about 4 times as much syrup they pretty much control the bulk price. If a bulk seller asks too much the buyer can go to Canada and pay less. Another key factor is the Reserve that is controlled by the Federation the amount in reserve will change from year to year depending on the production and the demand for product.

[WESTMAPLES]

im with PAtheron i also like to keep it simple and make great syrup

[BreezyHill]

Great. You know more about dairy than the rest of us thanks to your "enlightening" class. The title thread is "2015 Bulk Pricing" and that's bulk maple syrup in case you forgot.

Perhaps it is time for a new thread regarding 2016 pricing but until then, as the OP, I am going to have to ask that we keep it ON topic.

It never fails to shock me how there are people in this world that will not learn from other business, You cant tell me how a break even point is not relative to the Maple Pricing...are you truly that blind that you think that the industry of maple is not going down the road that dairy has traveled? You do realize it was those small producers that are the first to be swallowed up in the wake of the large producers...OMG that was a boating term wasn't it? Guess that is off topic to right?

Why is it that you jump on your soapbox and only want a discussion to only be in a parameter that you set? That is how a Socialist speaks.

You do realize that when you go on these tirades' that you appear to be jealous of all those that use business models to make business decisions and there comes a time to learn that the point of view of another can be helpful in growing.

Theron the point is: The pains that the Maple Industry is feeling now is a high production point and exchange rate. There will be large producers that come onto the scene and the affect will be that production amounts will increase. When the price of bulk goes down large producers will eventually cut back but usually it is after many of the small producers have stopped producing. Then the price will go up and more producers will enter the market.
We have seen the high times and now we will see the low times. So in order to survive the low times a producer needs to do exactly as you said: add up all your number and stay in the black ink. If this means not expanding to limit costs then do so. If it means expanding a bit to maximize your RO, evaporator or time, then do so. If you can sell sap and make more $$$ then do that. If you are going to stay in the market you need to be proactive in your management tactics.

Break even point is the point at witch the Black Ink turns Red. Every producer should know this point for their operation. Take all your bills from last season and divide that amount by your average production.

Prior to a season you can take the current bulk price and multiply that by your average production to see if it is worthwhile to even start.

So if you have a bush that averages .3 gallons at a round number of 11#/ gallon per tap you produce 3.3# of syrup/ tap and you have 750 taps you produce an average of 2475# of syrup anuually. Take $2.30 x your 2475# and you have $5692.50 in projected revenue. IF you have fixed liabilities like RO or evap payments then you need have to figure what you can do to cover those... easiest thing is to increase your average production thru management the other is to increase tap counts; but realize this will increase expenses. But if you can case out these expenses then this is a logical choice.

Do realize that if this is a good season then the chance of a lower bulk price after the season is likely unless there is something to change the exchange rate to overcome the reserves and new product.

[jmayerl]

So if you have a bush that averages .3 gallons at a round number of 11#/ gallon per tap you produce 3.3# of syrup/ tap and you have 750 taps you produce an average of 2475# of syrup anuually. Take $2.30 x your 2475# and you have $5692.50 in projected revenue. IF you have fixed liabilities like RO or evap payments then you need have to figure what you can do to cover those... easiest thing is to increase your average production thru management the other is to increase tap counts; but realize this will increase expenses. But if you can case out these expenses then this is a logical choice.[/QUOTE]

Here is the point I see as so silly. Why would you ever base a business off something so silly as selling bulk syrup when the retail price is so much higher. Take those 750 taps and sell that syrup in retail 12oz bottles and we are now at 2375 bottles(that's the amount of 12oz bottles I can fill from 2475#) sell the bottles for $6, subtract $.80 for bottle and label and that syrup is now worth $12,350 for some very simple bottling and marketing.

[unc23win]

It never fails to shock me how there are people in this world that will not learn from other business, You cant tell me how a break even point is not relative to the Maple Pricing...are you truly that blind that you think that the industry of maple is not going down the road that dairy has traveled? You do realize it was those small producers that are the first to be swallowed up in the wake of the large producers...OMG that was a boating term wasn't it? Guess that is off topic to right?

Why is it that you jump on your soapbox and only want a discussion to only be in a parameter that you set? That is how a Socialist speaks.

You do realize that when you go on these tirades' that you appear to be jealous of all those that use business models to make business decisions and there comes a time to learn that the point of view of another can be helpful in growing.

Theron the point is: The pains that the Maple Industry is feeling now is a high production point and exchange rate. There will be large producers that come onto the scene and the affect will be that production amounts will increase. When the price of bulk goes down large producers will eventually cut back but usually it is after many of the small producers have stopped producing. Then the price will go up and more producers will enter the market.
We have seen the high times and now we will see the low times. So in order to survive the low times a producer needs to do exactly as you said: add up all your number and stay in the black ink. If this means not expanding to limit costs then do so. If it means expanding a bit to maximize your RO, evaporator or time, then do so. If you can sell sap and make more $$$ then do that. If you are going to stay in the market you need to be proactive in your management tactics.

Break even point is the point at witch the Black Ink turns Red. Every producer should know this point for their operation. Take all your bills from last season and divide that amount by your average production.

Prior to a season you can take the current bulk price and multiply that by your average production to see if it is worthwhile to even start.

So if you have a bush that averages .3 gallons at a round number of 11#/ gallon per tap you produce 3.3# of syrup/ tap and you have 750 taps you produce an average of 2475# of syrup anuually. Take $2.30 x your 2475# and you have $5692.50 in projected revenue. IF you have fixed liabilities like RO or evap payments then you need have to figure what you can do to cover those... easiest thing is to increase your average production thru management the other is to increase tap counts; but realize this will increase expenses. But if you can case out these expenses then this is a logical choice.

Do realize that if this is a good season then the chance of a lower bulk price after the season is likely unless there is something to change the exchange rate to overcome the reserves and new product.

You assume you are the only one with any business other than maple and you assume you know more about business than any of the rest of us as they ignorance is bliss. You are the one that goes on tirades and gets on a soap box more than a politician because you feel the need to educate us or take the topic away from the original purpose. Reminds me of a few college classes that I had that didn't teach me **** thing.

Comparing maple to dairy has done nothing for this thread except get it off topic. Dairy is dairy and maple is maple (I have knowledge of dairy, but keep it off this thread) and I agree that this thread is to discuss the current bulk price and share knowledge about bulk pricing not oil, fruit, dairy, or any other industry.

In my opinion the small producers or any for that matter that manage to market and sell their syrup all at retail price bulk prices will take longer to have an affect, but that is another topic.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Some of us do not have the luxury of living where we can sell all those 12 oz bottles at those prices or even sell them at all. It takes a great deal of time and energy to retail syrup. There is much more to it than putting it in a bottle and waiting for customers. I retail and wholesale bout 10k of jugged syrup, candy and cream each year but I get most of my$'s from the bulk market. Do I wish I sold more retail? Hell yes, and I am gradually building that market. It will help to cushion the fluctuations in the bulk price. Just remember that the retail price can fall too. If all I get is $20/gallon in a drum, what is to prevent me from saturating your market with $30/gallon syrup in a jug?

[mellondome]

Wonder how much syrup the federation acquires for free through confiscation of non member producers crop? And how this free syrup effects the bulk price?

[GeneralStark]

It never fails to shock me how there are people in this world that will not learn from other business, You cant tell me how a break even point is not relative to the Maple Pricing...are you truly that blind that you think that the industry of maple is not going down the road that dairy has traveled? You do realize it was those small producers that are the first to be swallowed up in the wake of the large producers...OMG that was a boating term wasn't it? Guess that is off topic to right?

If you want to start a thread about the similarities between maple and dairy, or how maple is going down the same road as you say, or what it is like to put iodine on a cow's teets, go for it. This is not that thread however and is instead about bulk maple syrup pricing. I and many others here could care less about dairy. Get it?


Why is it that you jump on your soapbox and only want a discussion to only be in a parameter that you set? That is how a Socialist speaks.

The number one rule in the forum rules thread, which I suspect you have never read, is to keep the thread on topic. I started this thread so I have every right to attempt to do so. I assume that you are using the term socialist in a derogatory sense as frankly you don't really know a thing about me or my politics and that's how we'll keep it. I don't see anyone else in this thread resorting to using derogatory terms towards other members, do you?


You do realize that when you go on these tirades' that you appear to be jealous of all those that use business models to make business decisions and there comes a time to learn that the point of view of another can be helpful in growing.

Asking someone to stay on topic in a thread is not going on a tirade. You don't know a thing about my business model but I can assure you it is successful. Bulk pricing really only relates to me as I do buy some sap and I use the pricing system based on bulk syrup prices. Otherwise producing for bulk is of no interest to me as it does not make sense with my business model. I do find it interesting however and that is why I started the thread. I learn from others' points of view all the time, especially when they act in a respectful manner that is inclusive of others' perspectives. Generally when you provide advice or your point of view it seems to me it comes across in a lecturing and condescending way. Suggesting that I am jealous in attempting to keep a thread I started on topic is one example of this.

[GeneralStark]

Some of us do not have the luxury of living where we can sell all those 12 oz bottles at those prices or even sell them at all. It takes a great deal of time and energy to retail syrup. There is much more to it than putting it in a bottle and waiting for customers. I retail and wholesale bout 10k of jugged syrup, candy and cream each year but I get most of my$'s from the bulk market. Do I wish I sold more retail? Hell yes, and I am gradually building that market. It will help to cushion the fluctuations in the bulk price. Just remember that the retail price can fall too. If all I get is $20/gallon in a drum, what is to prevent me from saturating your market with $30/gallon syrup in a jug?

I often wonder why we don't see more producers selling syrup in jugs at super cheap prices that are still higher than bulk. It does actually happen in parts of VT and I often see people selling gals. at $35-40. I suspect the time required is the big factor, and I also suspect that the market is already pretty saturated with everyone and their brother being a sugarmaker in VT.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr tim.....if i wanted to be "extreamly cost efficiant",,,,,,,,i would go to .gov and get a grant for a new r.o and evaporator on the tax payers dime,,,,,

No offense taken. Be my guest and try to get some free government money. I think you'll find that there is not a lot of $ out there to expand operations and add taps. The federal grants that were given out were for energy efficiency. I really am not sure where people got the idea that the government is giving out free money to people to get into sugaring. As far as I know, it hasn't happened, but we sure do get calls from folks with some regularity looking for it.

[ennismaple]

I do feel the pain of our US brothers due to the dropping bulk price south of the border. I know many of you have spent considerable time and money to invest in your maple business in recent years but are now getting 30% less for your bulk syrup. To me - this highlights the importance of having a diverse customer base where you sell in retail, wholesale and in bulk.

I can say that we Canucks are not immune to the effects of the weak Loonie. The resin for plastic jugs and tubing is priced in $US. Our CV's come from the States so we're paying 40% more for those than we did 2 years ago. Many suppliers are switching to glass bottles coming from Europe or Asia because while our dollar is weak vs the greenback it hasn't lost nearly as much ground to other currencies.

On the plus side for Americans - your strong dollar will mean your vacation to Canada next summer will be a lot cheaper! My Aunt and Uncle run a rental cottage business with most of their customers coming from PA and NY and their vacancy rates fluctuate with the exchange rate between our dollars.

[DrTimPerkins]

I think the only thing that we can do as producers that could help maybe a little is not to make any mersh. That will take that out of the supply. On a bad year a lot of that can be made that helps keep the packers with more syrup that they can be fed into the supply that can keep our price down.

Some amount of commercial/substandard syrup is required in the market, and packers will buy some of it to meet those needs. Because of the volumes they deal with, they can always blend in a little of this to lessen the off-flavor. There is no doubt there is more of it being made currently however.

I disagree with the idea of making more substandard syrup in low production years. This sort of goes hand-in-hand with there being poor quality/poor flavor maple syrup out in the marketplace during poor years. That is just plain wrong. Bad syrup should NOT make it to the consumer whether it is a good year or a poor year.

The problem is the idea of not making as much low-grade syrup it that while it is fairly easy for the small producer to just stop making syrup when it is no longer worth it for their marketing strategy (because they have no place to sell it anyhow). However for the bulk producer, many of their costs are already fixed, so keeping the RO and evaporator running for a bit longer make very little difference on the expense side of the equation, but can add a little on the income side, so they keep making it as long as they can get it through the RO and filter press.

[spud]

The problem is the idea of not making as much low-grade syrup it that while it is fairly easy for the small producer to just stop making syrup when it is no longer worth it for their marketing strategy (because they have no place to sell it anyhow). However for the bulk producer, many of their costs are already fixed, so keeping the RO and evaporator running for a bit longer make very little difference on the expense side of the equation, but can add a little on the income side, so they keep making it as long as they can get it through the RO and filter press.[/QUOTE]

Dr. Tim I fall into this category also as a sap seller. I sell my sap to a very large producer and they will continue making syrup until it stops going through the filter press. Even on end of season sap I get .22 cents a gallon. The last week of sap run for me still gets me 4500 gallons per day on average. Thats over $6000 for me and all I had to do was keep the pumps running. The packers tend to buy the poor syrup from the big producers because it's the only way their going to get all the good syrup from them. If you want the good then you better take the bad. I have been told that the packers make just as much money on the poor syrup as they do on the good stuff. I'm not sure if this is true but this is what I heard.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

The irony of this whole conversation (and I hope I am not taking this too far off topic) is that producers in the US think/believe they are operating in a totally capitalistic regime, where supply and demand and prices will balance out. Given the large Quebec/Federation influence on maple pricing and the presence of the strategic reserve, they most certainly are not. I didn't hear a lot of people in the US complaining about bulk prices when the Federation negotiated higher prices with their buyers, and when the Canadian $ was stronger. Those benefits came from a very socialistic system (Canadian Government, Provincial Government, and the Federation), but US producers sure benefitted from that system, and US expansion rose based upon that benefit.

Now this does stray a bit from the topic (my apologies), and maybe after this post we can start a new thread to further discuss this issue, but everyone in the US should realize that Quebec producers also pay C$0.12 per pound to the Federation for: promotion and marketing, research, quality control, administration, and inventory maintenance. In this US, most of these types of things are borne by each individual producers (if they retail themselves) or packers (for bulk producers). What gets largely lost in the shuffle is the research piece. In Quebec, C$0.0093 (or a little less than one cent per pound) goes to research focusing on maple syrup and maple production. This is NOT voluntary....it is a required contribution. For 2015 it will generate close to a million $ Canadian for maple research.

In the US, there is the North American Maple Syrup Council Research Fund, which comes from donations from several "Research Alliance" partners, and from voluntary donations through the "Penny per Container" program. Don't get me wrong here....UVM PMRC and other researchers have definitely benefitted from this source of funds and we do appreciate it, However over the past 10 yrs, a period which has seen tremendous growth in US syrup production and huge increases in yields for many producers, which have been achieved at least partly due to maple research and education, the average annual amount of research funding raised has been about $30k. The average from the first ten years of the program (1990-1999) was $29k. So if we calculate this out, we find that the average US producer contribution to research is $0.00095 per POUND of syrup, or 0.04% (4 HUNDREDTHS OF ONE PERCENT), or only about 10% of what the Canadian producer pays for maple industry research. This is WAY FAR less than a penny per container folks. If you wonder why there are fewer and fewer maple researchers and maple Extension people around now then there used to be.....this is a big part of the reason why. If the funding trend continues, the loss of maple research and outreach will certainly also continue. It is time for the maple industry to stand up a bit in this regard.

Instead, what we have is that research in the US is generally funded by government grants...and a considerable amount of marketing is also paid for by government (Specialty Crop Block Grants) to states to market maple.....which is.....in large part.....very socialistic (especially when you compare it to the maple industry funds raised in Quebec). At PMRC we spend probably 20-25% of our time figuring out how to raise funds to do research rather than actually doing the research. Personally....I'd much rather be spending my time doing the research.

I am NOT saying that we need to have a market order or a system like that in Quebec, but we (in the US) certainly could be doing a far better job funding research and cooperative marketing efforts than we are doing now.

My apologies....rant over.

[lakeview maple]

No need to apologize Dr Tim , good response and your right about the funding. We all should step up to the plate.

[PATheron]

Dr, You can rant and rave, I always like to click on the posts like that more than the other ones anyway because its more fun and interesting. When in doubt flip out. That's what I say. Theron

[spud]

Without you Dr. Tim I would be tapping Hemlock trees all hooked up to a shop vac. Thank you and all the good folks at PMRC.

Spud

[Parker]

Dr. Tim,,,,you know just what i mean when i talk about getting free money to improve my production,,,yes,,through an energy efficancy grant,,,i have a 1983? Sap bro's r.o (4 inch membranes and no recirc.) and a 5x16 wood fired evaporator..with a flat hood..if i applied for a grant given i have 5000 taps (with the potential for 8000?)i would get something like a new 1000gph r.o (id like an h2o please) and the latest and greatest 4x14 evaporator,,(leader max with steamaway please) ,and my end of the payment for 60+k of equipment would be the cost of the energy audit and mabey 10% of the equipment cost,,,,,,(and some kind od septic system for the permate i guess to save the frogs) please........lets not do the piviot and deflect......with this new processing equipment i would not have to boil for 12 to 20 hours (or more) to keep up with the sap,,,,and i could indeed add many more taps and still get some sleep.....i would not have to cut split and stack 50 + cords a year and could spend that time and energy in the woods adding taps..and vastly increase my production
This relates to bulk pricing because this program has massivily increased production. As stated demand has increased by 10% a year....how much has the us probuction increased by as a result of this program.. (10% mabey?) if that extra syrup was not on the market would the bulk price be higher?.i realize this is the new reality....just pointing it out.......
I like listing to diffrent opinions from the smartest guys out there because it helps me see the situation from diffrent prespctives........our industry is rapidly changing..........

[mellondome]

Syrup bulk price is not simple supply and demand. It is controlled by the federation ( maple cartel ) it only goes up or down when they want it to. It would take a massive increase in the USA to have any effect on their pricing.

Think of maple as a drug. You make it ...the cartel buys it from you. You don't dictate the price ... the cartel does. And it doesn't matter how much is being made or by how many...they are only going to pay you what they think is fair. And in the land of mounties... If you don't sell to them and try to sell around them, they confiscate your stash. Now here you are in America. Here you can try to sell your stuff your self on the street, or if you have too much, you sell to the dealers and wholesalers And guess what... they aren't going to pay you anymore than they would the cartel. Supply and demand doesn't trickle down from them to the producer as they control a vast inventory to supply from at their will. ( and they have police backing from their government )

If there is error in the layman's anology above, I will just go back to milking cows.

...

Well... cows don't like waiting. Off to tap the black and whites.

[Hop Kiln Road]

I just reread my January 2015 post (#35) and my comment for 2016 is ditto. US bulk prices will continue to drift down and US retail prices will continue to drift up in 2016. This obviously continues to be a risky environment for US bulk producers.

While the US is now clearly in a deflationary economy, our Canadian friends are in trouble. The US$ will continue to be very strong in relation to other currencies. Despite the weak C$, it is questionable whether the Canadians can successfully service their debt since their largest commodity exports are not in demand. China, with its weak and unreliable financial reporting and untenable political system, and the crisis ridden EU, will further aggravate the situation, ie, strengthen the US$.

Barring wars, disasters and politicians acting rationally, this is not a short term situation so you don't have to be Charles Darwin to know the answer. Be a low cost, debt free producer and continue to develop higher end and value added markets.

[bairdswift]

Barring wars, disasters and politicians acting rationally, this is not a short term situation so you don't have to be Charles Darwin to know the answer. Be a low cost, debt free producer and continue to develop higher end and value added markets

This ses it all!

[spud]

Barring wars, disasters and politicians acting rationally, this is not a short term situation so you don't have to be Charles Darwin to know the answer. Be a low cost, debt free producer and continue to develop higher end and value added markets

This ses it all!

This post is music to my ears. For years I have been telling Traders to watch their spending. Why buy a new evaporator when you can buy a near new one for a third of the price? The same would apply for a lot of equipment in the sugar house. Most of my sugaring friends are in such debt that i'm not sure they will ever make a profit. You can make 1 barrel or 500 barrels per season but if your just giving the money to your local maple dealer then whats the point. We have no say in what the bulk price will be from year to year. A bulk selling sugar maker should be setting up their operation knowing that the price could drop to $1.50LB. It's not Canada's fault if you don't show profit. It's a sugar makers foolish spending that will ruin him or her.

Spud

[PATheron]

In the future bulk syrup prices are going to get and stay very high. As the older producers slow down and the newer producers start being the majority production is going to go through the floor. If you don't believe me just go see what your teenage kid is doing right now. If they are like mine theyre looking at stupid crap on their I phone. Those guys aren't going to flood the market with anything. Theyre not going to wannnnnnnnnit. Theron

[jimsudz]

Hop Kiln Road nicely said!!!

[Jim Brown]

How true Theron ! How true!

jim

[BreezyHill]

Spud, your operation is uncommon to many operations. I am wondering if you would calculate your break even point(BEP). Then if others would be so kind as to calculate their BEP then we could do as you have recommended; and provide a reference, at what point an individual's operation is at in terms of potential for profitability or loss, relative to the bulk price.

Just posted a new thread for this.

[WESTMAPLES]

right on theron, those kids arent going to do anything but play with there games, lol next thing you know they will make a maple syrup producers game to play on there phone apps. ( im 29 and don`t have or need a smart phone ) i hear it all the time from people that i do work for that since i work with my hands and can make, fix, or make work just about anything, that 10 years from now ill be a millionaire because of the skills i have and use, because upcoming generations aren`t as hands on. so im going to completely agree with old going out ( ` sugar makers don`t die, they evaporate`) and new staring at there phones. markets should be better if we all can hang in there, to move on to better pricing.

[BreezyHill]

In the future bulk syrup prices are going to get and stay very high. As the older producers slow down and the newer producers start being the majority production is going to go through the floor. If you don't believe me just go see what your teenage kid is doing right now. If they are like mine theyre looking at stupid crap on their I phone. Those guys aren't going to flood the market with anything. Theyre not going to wannnnnnnnnit. Theron


Theoron, Though I agree with the statement on the majority of youth there is still a small fraction of the population that is driven and desires the "American Dream".
My 17 Yr old is sharpening a chain saw and has already mixed a truck load of feed for a new customer and is waiting for his girlfriend that has already fed her animals and cleaned their stalls and cages. 18 yr old is in the city driving a team of drafts, doing carnage rides for a friends business, the oldest 20 and is getting back from changing a tire for the ATV so we can get more wood in. His girl friend is also coming over to help, she's 19.

My wife and I have raised our kids with the motto of " Work hard and Play Harder!" They are not the average, but I have seen their friends and I have gained a glimmer of hope for the future. BUt it only takes a small percentage of the population to be farmers. Paintball, Snowmobiling, gold panning, horse riding and sports, showing cows is our fun...I know getting dragged by a 2000# cow is not fun but getting the Big Ribbons and just working with friends and family is reward enough.

Just look at this past year: The same number of acres of corn were planted as the historic max in the late 1940's, when the Ford 8N & 9N were using 2 row planters, but it was done by less than 2% of the number of farmers as were operating in 1948.

But in the words of my oldest..." Running these new machines is just like using our XBox360. That was after he came home from a day at his internship that a Brand new 1/2 Million dollor front end loader needed to be removed from a 8 axle trailer and it had no steering wheel. He had it off the trailer in short order his first week on the job.

If you need a look at the future, go to UVM, Morrisville, Cobleskill, Cornell University and talk to the kids in the Ag studies classes. Very impressive groups of youth that are; ready, willing, and acking to jump into Agriculture and make their mark and feed the world.

Then you have those that will need their thumb joints replaced at age 30 from gaming...have no life experience, desire, or any of what we all had as kids growing up. It truly does break my heart to see kids with tremendous potential, waste their skills and potential. So find a prodigy and educate them while they help you produce your gourmet product.

"Share your knowledge with a kid and you will live for ever." Henry Ford

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Ben,
Glad your family is doing so well!

[PATheron]

Ben- Sounds like you've got good kids. Mine are good too and Im proud of them. They help me with the maple year around and Im sure they will find their passions. They are always looking at those phones though. Be some funny video this, or cool truck that and come over here you've got to see this. I tell them I don't have time to be watching stuff on those phones all the time. Im probly wound too tight and they are normal. I try to take the time to look at it and tell them its cool. I was a kid too. Theron

[spud]

Spud, your operation is uncommon to many operations. I am wondering if you would calculate your break even point(BEP). Then if others would be so kind as to calculate their BEP then we could do as you have recommended; and provide a reference, at what point an individual's operation is at in terms of potential for profitability or loss, relative to the bulk price.

Just posted a new thread for this.

BreezyHill it sounds like you and your wife did a fine job raising your children. My hat is off to both of you. I do agree with what Theron is saying though. Although there are kids that work hard it appears far more would rather sit on their FAT behinds and do nothing. As of right now none of my 7 kids want anything to do with sugaring. There not lazy but they are not interested in sugaring. They help when I ask but I know they would rather be doing something else. My wife says it's my dream not theirs. My plan is to keep sugaring till my back cannot take it anymore and then call it quits. We have no interest in renting out our woods to anyone else when I am done. Once the kids are all out of school I plan to spend my winters in Hawaii.

Spud

[BreezyHill]

Spud, I think your are looking at it from a good aspect. If you force them to work past a point they start to resent it. But when they get older I am sure that one or more will surprise you and feel the itch that only sugaring can scratch. Mine all like the cows, one enjoys bottling, all tapping and laying lines, pretty much all like boiling, the wife hates it all. She will help all the time but she is not shy about letting you know she would rather do something else. LOL

I wish you a long time before your back demands less work. Mine was getting very bad then I found I had lime. All good now.

I know a guy that has a 3000 tap bush that he hates sugar so much he would just as soon clear cut it all than to go back to sugaring. He grew up sugaring and still wont even eat maple anything.

I will agree 100% there are a lot of lazy, good for I do not know what youth in the country. Worst part is they think they deserve everything handed to them Free Of Charge no less.

And worst yet they are not likely to be picking away at our supply reserves any time soon, with what they like to eat.

[DrTimPerkins]

Once the kids are all out of school I plan to spend my winters in Hawaii.

Just let me know when you get that guest room added on Spud. :lol:

I can sympathize with your kids though. I enjoyed/tolerated (depending on the day) farming as a kid, but had ZERO interest in cows. Was much more interested in the woods and trees, and feel very fortunate to have gotten back into sugaring in a round-about fashion. It's more important that you raise your kids with good manners, good values, and a good work-ethic than anything else.

My daughter learned from a very young age that the word "bored" was a 4-letter word in our house. I don't think I've heard her say it since she was about 4 yrs old. Her first cell phone was when she was 20 yrs old and in college, and only because the house she was living in didn't have a land-line.

[Hop Kiln Road]

A couple of bright comments on the darkest day of the year. Relax gentlemen, our kids and their technology will save us. Butt sitting while gaming and socially interacting on the phones is actually good for children, not so much for adults where it tends to lead to vice. As our education systems falter, more children are becoming self-taught, developing the real skills necessary in this evolving world since the old solutions, like the traditional forms of labor, communication or brick and mortar education, will not solve the new challenges.

Don't listen to the politicians competing for government pensions, technology is the antithesis of job creation. America's strengthen has always been unbridled ingenuity but coupled with the political will to socially adjust the resulting benefits.

[GeneralStark]

I have started a new 2016 bulk pricing thread because to say this one has gone off topic would be a major understatement.

[BAP]

I have started a new 2016 bulk pricing thread because to say this one has gone off topic would be a major understatement.
second that

[lakeview maple]

Exactly if it doesn't involve a I phone or computer desk there not going to hurt production. The idea of walking your lines to check for damage and squirrels and all the other hazards of sugar making will stop most of them in there tracks.
In the future bulk syrup prices are going to get and stay very high. As the older producers slow down and the newer producers start being the majority production is going to go through the floor. If you don't believe me just go see what your teenage kid is doing right now. If they are like mine theyre looking at stupid crap on their I phone. Those guys aren't going to flood the market with anything. Theyre not going to wannnnnnnnnit. Theron