Sap leaking from taps

[Mr. Red Maple]

Hey I was just wondering if anyone knew how to reduce the amount off so that leaks from the tree. I have always had the problem of sap leaking between the tap and the tree and I was wondering if you guys had any tips to stop that. Thanks Mr. red Maple

[Sunday Rock Maple]

What size and type are your taps, what type and size bit, what do you use for a drill and how do you drive the bit in?

[BreezyHill]

If you are using the correct size drill bit and the hole is straight and round there should be no sap leaking around the hole.

The price of a sap tapping bit is well worth every penny. They cut a clean hole and take the majority of the sawdust out the hole.

The other possibility is you are splitting he tree when you are seating the tap.

You want to hear a solid seat sound but not one strike more or the tree will split.

[Mr. Red Maple]

I am using a 5/16 bit with 5/16 taps and it's just the bit you would get at a hardware store. Should I scrape the bark around the area if where I want to tap if it is really un even?

[unc23win]

It is not uncommon for some taps to leak when you first tap them they should quit once they seal, which I am pretty sure happens when the wood gets wet around them. Some spouts seat a little different, but as long as you drill straight and don't split the wood they most likely will be fine. your not the only one who has experienced this same issue. There actually is a very good video by Glenn Goodrich on the Lapierre here http://www.sugaringequipment.elapierre.com/default_en.asp?no=113#video

[mellondome]

What are you tapping with? Gas drill? Cordless?
Any wobble of the drill will egg shape the hole and cause leaks as well

[morningstarfarm]

Spend the extra few bucks for a tapping bit...will be the best money you spend...then make sure your holes are straight

[BreezyHill]

I am using a 5/16 bit with 5/16 taps and it's just the bit you would get at a hardware store. Should I scrape the bark around the area if where I want to tap if it is really un even?

No, If you scrape to much and get down past the outer bark you can have a weep from that.

I use a 12 Volt drill gun for tapping. The weight is perfect to balance and use low speed not high.

Use the hardware bit for dry wood. You wil notice a difference on the first hole. Then you will treat that bit as if it were gold.

And if you find your son using it for a school project you will spin a bearing ...Been There Done That! Not my finest moment but he bough me a new bit to replace it.

Now they never leave the sugar house.

[Moser's Maple]

use low speed not high. .

I thought it was recommended to tap on high speed to prevent less wobble when drilling the hole? Trying to put my fingers on the source

[spud]

I tap high speed with new bits every year. A quick in and out and make it straight. The more time you spend going in and out of a tap hole the more problems you will have. I have found that Red Maples split more often so just seat your spout gently. No sap should be dripping around your tap holes ever.

Spud

[PATheron]

Ive noticed lots of times when I tap that the tree looks wet around the hole right after I tap but then it soon goes away. Especially on smooth bark smaller trees. I first thought maybe I was messing up and a mainline was froze backing up the sap but its happened often enough that I kind of layed it up to maybe kind of like a bruising or something when you tap. Sounds nuts but don't know why. Soon goes away and has no real adverse affect. I use only the best bits and drill on high speed and I think I pretty much have the hang of proper tapping. I don't know why it does it. I never see any drips though or vacuum leaks associated. Maybe that's what he sees. Theron

[unc23win]

I thought it was recommended to tap on high speed to prevent less wobble when drilling the hole? Trying to put my fingers on the source

Jake Glen Goodrich (in seminar on Lapierre Video) says tap at least 2000 rpms and same speed all the way in and out. He says if the drill has 2 speeds use highest if it has 3 speeds use middle.

I think he is seeing exactly what Theron is talking about more of wet spot. I have had this in the past after tapping and in a day or so its gone.

[GeneralStark]

Higher rpms are better for a straight and true hole. If you use a stop on the bit, and support the drill with two hands, perhaps even leaning your elbow on the tree, and of course use a tapping bit you should end up with a clean hole that won't leak. As other suggested, be careful with red maples to not drive the spout too hard.

I too find that for a day or two after tapping a tree when the sap is running, there may be a wet spot around the taphole. A perpetual leak is different.

[buckeye gold]

Like most I had split and leaking taps when I started, but rarely see more than a wet spot around a tap now. what i learned was get the drill up to RPM before you push . I don't stick my drill to the tree and push until it is running. It's all one motion continuous in and out. I may run my bit back in once to clean, but that's it. I usually cut a small green twig and and fray the end and swab out the hole with that. I used to split some trees because I carried a framing hammer to set taps. I now have what is almost a toy or tack hammer and when the tap seats that little hammer will bounce off that tap like a spring. It takes away the variance of listening for the proper thud. I'm sure there are better ways, but for a small hobby guy I think I do pretty well.

[BreezyHill]

I thought it was recommended to tap on high speed to prevent less wobble when drilling the hole? Trying to put my fingers on the source

On The older guns you had t use high to get to a speed that would provide a good clean hole by removing debris. The issue with high on the new guns that do 20,000 rpm and more is that you actually have a much higher chance of wobble and walking of a bit. The other issue is the high speed creates a large amount of friction on the wood as you are coming out of the hole and causes to things to occur: heating of the woods capillary cores and the grinding affect of the wood chips.

CDL's & Brandon Precision tappers have a specialized Dewalt Drill that is a 12K high speed, to reduce damage to the hole. Due to the design of the unit, to set against the tree, to make a consistent hole; the unit is supported by the tree. So as long as the operator holds the unit in place high speed will not wobble a straight bit and the spring loaded head removes the bit in a rapid cleaning stroke and the cool run bit protects the hoe.



If we think of the speed of: the bit brace...60 rpm on a fit person.
The gas drill we used had a top speed of 3000 Rpm at full throttle and stopped rotating when the bit was not depressed to illuminate the grinding of the chips.
Then we have the latest tapping bit with the fluted spirals to reduce friction on the hole wall.

I recall at a seminar many years back; the answer to why not use a fostner bit...the smooth body of the cutting circumference wood sear the holes edge and greatly reduce sap flow. The speed of the gas units was designed to make a cool, chip free hole, when using the tapping bit made for the unit. The manufacture also added that a rapid bit speed could make poorer holes from excessive bit wobble.

When I am tapping I oftern do set to high speed but only depress the trigger part way to keep speed low and high out of the tree for a moment to cast off all debris.

I was most impressed by a specialists comment: "Treat the hole well and it will treat you well."

[unc23win]

The issue with high on the new guns that do 20,000 rpm and more is that you actually have a much higher chance of wobble and walking of a bit.

20,000 RPM? Is this typo by chance? Is that a cordless drill? From what I have seen of Bosch, Makita, DeWalt the fastest is like 2200 RPMs. Glenn Goodrich in his Lapierre seminar recommended 2,000 rpms.

[GeneralStark]

Got to be a typo, or else Breezy Hill has access to some serious cordless drills. :o

The last time I had my hands on a precision tapper, which is an awesome concept, it was coupled with a typical Dewalt cordless. Perhaps that has changed, but the bit was not spinning at 12,000rpm. Now they are actually selling it as a separate unit to adapt to your own drill.

Another worthwhile investment is a real tapping mallet. I have been using the one made by Loac for a few years now and really like it. I also really like their spout puller.

[maple flats]

Only use tapping bits, never a wood boring or metal boring one from a hardware store. They ARE different and they cut cleaner holes. I use 2 speed cordless drills and only use high speed. Be careful not to wobble the drill. Then tap in with a light tap. I use 7" lineman's pliers, using the flat side to hammer, usually 3-4 gentle taps, then the sound changes, don't tap anymore. You can also use a light wt hammer like a tack hammer, or a tapping hammer with a nylon head.

[tbear]

Will the DSD tapping hammer from Maple Guys work with 7/16 metal spiles? Would it be worth getting one? Ted

[calvertbrothers]

I've had that wet stop around the tap as well. I asked an older gentlemen that did has done some studies with Cornell with his woods about that wetness around the tap. what he explained to me is that a hairlines cracks in the outer membrane of the tree. What causes this is either a dull bit, movement when starting the drilling proses, or your taping the taps in just a hair to much. But lose of sap is nothing. I was told not to worry about it.

[DrTimPerkins]

I've had that wet stop around the tap as well. ... I was told not to worry about it.

That is correct. There is often some slight amount of sap weeping around the taphole when tapping or during the first run. This is not an indication that anything is wrong, but rather is simply sap coming from the other edge of the wound. It is normal, but should stop within a day or two.

[dsaw]

I had a fair number of leaking taps after my significant other did the initial tapping when I wasn't around this year. I discovered a good way to fix them is to replace them with 7/16 taps (assuming you're using 5/16 taps). Of course, I'm now running low on 7/16 taps even though I don't want to be using them. I do appreciate the effort, so I know better then to bring it up and replaced them without mentioning it.

[eustis22]

I gotta be the worst driller ever. ALL my tapholes leak. I tried additonal hits with a small modelers hammer but the holes still weep. this year I went in with a slight angle but my hands gotta be unsteady

[DrTimPerkins]

I gotta be the worst driller ever. ALL my tapholes leak. I tried additonal hits with a small modelers hammer but the holes still weep. this year I went in with a slight angle but my hands gotta be unsteady

A small amount of sap weeping around the outside edge of the spout is normal for a few days. DON'T keep pounding them in.

[eustis22]

so it might not be me? Why does this happen?

[DrTimPerkins]

so it might not be me? Why does this happen?

It happens because you have cut a hole in the tree. It is perfectly normal that when you make a wound, sap flows out. Why should it only flow on the inside of the spout? The cut is actually on the outside edge of the spout, so it shouldn't be surprising that some amount of sap that will seep out from that area immediately after wounding or the first time the tree thaws out. However those cells will quickly dry out and stop flowing, but the fresh tissue that stays moist on the inside of the spout will continue to flow. Now if you keep pounding on that spout to get it to stop, then you WILL create a bigger wound (a crack) on the outside of the spout that extends above and below the hole, and this WILL leak more sap and/or be a vacuum leak that you can't stop. So it is best NOT to keep pounding the spouts in after they are properly set. Now a few days/week later when you're out checking for leaks you can tap them in a bit if they are still leaking (unless you've already driven them in too far) or have popped out (typically due to sap freezing in the taphole pushing the spout out), but again, the key thing is to TAP them in, not POUND them in.

[eustis22]

ok...just for the record, I didn't pound them in but gave them a few extra taps with this teeny tiny hammer smaller than a rockhound hammer.

Is there a way to check for cracks? I don't want to harm my trees thru ignorance.

[mapleguy]

Mine seep after I tap, but dry up within a week. Interesting though , I use 7/16 steel spiles for my buckets and they never leak.

[DrTimPerkins]

ok...just for the record, I didn't pound them in but gave them a few extra taps with this teeny tiny hammer smaller than a rockhound hammer.

I am not suggesting you did, but I'm hoping to prevent you (and others) from heading in that direction. Things are starting to get very busy, so I don't have as much time to write a carefully worded reply.


Is there a way to check for cracks? I don't want to harm my trees thru ignorance.

If the cracks are large enough you can see them, but often you can't until later in the summer when the healing is taking place. Your best option at this point is to just hope you didn't, and if not, then the weeping will stop in a few days or a week. if they were over-driven, the weeping could continue all season. If you're on gravity it won't make much difference. If on vacuum, they you'll have a leak. The usual tendency for people trying to fix leaks is to continue driving the spouts....if they already have cracks that usually only makes the problem worse.

[eustis22]

thank you. I appreciate your time.