Lifters or ladders

[cropseyvillemark]

I'm looking for input. I have a low spot with 160-180 taps. It is a 38' lift to the mainline. While looking at others photos,it seems easy enough to use star ladders or two pipe ladders. My apprehension with these set-ups is base on me not being able to get my head around how vac. is transferred beyond them. How does the vertical column of sap in a ladder differ from a full pipe at a sag in the mainline? I can see how vac gets transferred with a lifter,but I am a little nervous about the mechanics of them after reading other posts. I have 2 of them that I bought used for another spot that never got done.

[BreezyHill]

Mark, The issue with a pool of sap in a main is that you are having to pull a horizontal column of sap in a large tube that is more interested in rolling like a wave in the tube pushed by a bubble of gas. The gas is lighter and travels to the top of the tube while gravity holds the sap to the bottom of the tube and pulls it back to the low spot.
Ladders, you have a vertical column of sap being pulled up a tub on a bubble of air. Sap can be lifted about 12" for every inch of vac. As the pump is pulling on the pool gases can build up behind the pool and rush to the pump when the pool waves again. The gases go to the pump but the sap goes back to the pool area until the pool is large enough to flow past the pool. The ladder is a continues flow of sap and gases to the pump with little to no slow down like in a pool and very little back flow...this is called slippage. Slippage is from friction of the sap on the tubing wall.

Vacuum is simple. A pump removes all air from an enclosed system of tubing, pulling gases and sap toward the pump which is the point of lowest vac, from the taps.

Ladders are simple. I have 8 last season and 2 more for this season. Tallest ladder is 18' shortest is 6' or so. I would split your rise into 3 lifts of 12,12,& 13, provided you have sufficient vac levels.

How much va are you running?

Ben

[cropseyvillemark]

I am at 20-22" on a Delaval 75.

[BreezyHill]

That is my favorite pump. Do you have a vac regulator on it? Mine runs right around 27"

I am only about 20-30 minutes from you if you want to see my ladders.

I am a little concerned about your vac level...there could be leaks in the lines that you have not found or it could be the 75 needs a freshening up.

You can still run those three ladders with those readings, the issue will be adding another 180 taps onto your present system and where the vac level will end up at after you have them on the system.

Can you post or pm some pics of your system so I can figure where the issue is. I also have a vac and cfm tester that I could swing by and check the pump to see if it is the pump some time.

Ben

[GeneralStark]

With two lifters (I assume you are speaking about the tank style lifter) you could probably lift that distance with one after another, but one wouldn't do it. As Breezy said, 1'/inch of vac. Sap lifters also require some cfm as they are basically introducing a leak to the tank to get the bubbles to carry the sap up hill. If you have the lifters and the cfms to run them, that could be a good option for you.

Pumping sap from the low spot and sloping your mains to there will be the best option if you are looking to maintain high production. Ladders freeze and in the time it takes them to thaw, which is generally longer than sloped lines, the taps beyond aren't producing. On marginal days when sloped lines may thaw, your ladders may not. If it is a warm area, it may not be a major loss, but it's a loss. Ladders also create a reduction in your vac. levels through them.

[unc23win]

If you have the lifters I would go with them that's what they are designed to do set them up like the diagram in the CDL catalog I think its page 49. You can see the catalog @ www.cdlusa.net

I agree with the General you will have to decide if it is worth it, but you definitely don't want to take cfms away from your other taps.

[BreezyHill]

As Breezy said, 1'/inch of vac. Sap lifters also require some cfm as they are basically introducing a leak to the tank to get the bubbles to carry the sap up hill.

Pumping sap from the low spot and sloping your mains to there will be the best option if you are looking to maintain high production. Ladders freeze and you lose vac. through them. When they are frozen they aren't producing. If it is a warm area, it may not be a major loss, but it's a loss.

I have to totally disagree with ladders are not a tool for high production operations, but maybe .5 gallons syrup per tap is not considered high production any longer.

Sap does freeze but so will a pump if it is not drained prior to freezing temperatures reaching the sap in it or a tank.

Ladders are always positioned to catch sun as soon as possible and will start to thaw at 30 degrees with the vac pump running, has been my experience over the years. It is so much quicker to thaw a 5/16 riser line than a larger line of a pump due to thermal mass.

The bubbles that many use to lift sap in their ladders are produced by the trees and some also comes from system leaks that already exists.

My system is tight enough to need extra air inject into the system to speed the sap thru the ladders. The size of the leak I use is far less than a 28 gauge needle opening. If you added all the injectors together they will add up to less than .1 cfm. My Cfm tester will only go down to .2 cfm and I am unable to get all the injectors together to produce a reading on it.

One should also note that ladders will lift slush far better than a pump can pump slush. Slush will plug the screens on most pumps; while I have seen the ladder line moving slush for as much as 30 minutes before it freezes up.

Our operation used pumps for a couple of years and went back to ladders as they suited our operation far better and were less costly to maintain and operate; but we had to run power 200' to a pump station and ran the pump on electricity off the grid. If one has solar powered pump and the power can be produced for next to nothing then by all means use a pump; but the sheer cost of energy and visiting a pump to drain it and start it twice a day is not in my schedule so it is not an option for my operation.

Form my experience of doing things both ways, ladders are more flexible, less problematic, and less costly than pumps for elevating sap in the bush.

Ben

[unc23win]

Breezy I believe that General was talking about that he should use the lift, which he said he has 2 of actual lifts (that use tanks) made to lift sap that he bought used if I read right. I understand that you are a ladder person, but why would he go to the trouble of setting up ladders when he can install the lifts he already has? I sure wouldn't that's for sure.

I also think that General was talking about the lift being the way to go because the leak is controlled by the tank. Correct me if I am wrong General.

A lot of people pump sap many different ways over great distances with no problems at all it is merely a suggestion that might be the right one you never know. There is more than one way to collect sap. Releasers with self contained pumps are becoming very popular because they can be used in many ways and still run high vacuum. Instead of getting offended or ramming your idea through to everyone realize there is more than one way to do it and your not the only one with experience. You might even learn something. I know I for one have learned a lot from some trader friends.

In my opinion lifts and ladders are great ways to get more sap, but for me it has to be a lot of sap for it to be worth introducing a leak that could hinder the rest of the taps. Say for instance adding 180 taps on a ladder versus 1500 already now if it was the other way around adding 1500 on ladder versus 180 already well yea probably worth it.

[BreezyHill]

Pumping sap from the low spot and sloping your mains to there will be the best option if you are looking to maintain high production. Ladders freeze and you lose vac. through them. When they are frozen they aren't producing. If it is a warm area, it may not be a major loss, but it's a loss.

UW, Correct me if I am reading this wrong but I take this to say that ladders freeze and you loose vac with a ladder. I would hate for a person to think that a diaphragm pump or other pump will not freeze when the temps dip below 32 degrees and are still able to transfer vacuum.

My other point is that if a person is to slope lines to another location and use a releaser and pump the sap to the sugar house or to another main on vac then you are loosing cfms thru the releaser which can be more than the tenth or less of a cubic foot per minute I am losing running 5 injectors on eight ladders.

I like your point of not worth gathering another 10% of your tap count if your are going to loose an equal amount from your current production...Great Point. But my experience has not been that way. My system has all the lines from the bush coming into a single glass manifold with each line having its own glass tee. I have seen that there are times that the ladder system line is running several times more gpm than the gravity lines on fewer taps; but this is due to the trees of the ladder lines are protected from wind and are in a naturally warm area during the daytime. Who ever I must say that this is also a colder area during the night since cold air settles into the lower sections of the bush and travels down the brook valley.

There is a way around the ladder freezing issue and that is to design in a check valve onto a catch tank and allow the ladder to drain as soon as vac is lost to the system or to the line at the base of the ladder. The CDL Lift tanks are fitted with a dump trap. The gallons of sap that are lost are minimal but I hate to not know how much harvested product was actually lost...so I will be setting a small tank that I will have a line off of a riser that can be stuck into the tank and empty it after the gallonage is measured, when I am checking for leaks.

I Totally Agree with your point that there are as many different ways to pump sap as there are producers and that every producer needs to weigh the options of each harvest tool for their system... the best place to get information is from those that have used the tools and have had success using them and to weigh in those that have had a failure and realize the reason for the failure. To say a truck is junk when the owner never changed the oil is not far to the manufacturer of the truck; as it is not far to only look at the trucks that are still running 10 years latter. One needs to look at the failed unit and ascertain why the failure occurred before condemning the unit.

Point in case: I have one ladder that gave me fits last season. Its is the fifth in a series of 7. It took me nearly all last season to discover the problem why #5 would have sap pool in the risers and loose vac level when #4 was fine and #6 & #7 were still running just fine until the pool of sap grew to a point that it flooded about 75 feet of the main feeding #5. In the end it was my own stupid mistake. Some how several of the risers had become plugged with wood chips from the tap holes.

If I had this ladder as my only experience I would never use a ladder; but I knew how well they work and how to set them up to get vac thru them; so I was forced to scrutinize the unit until I could discover the reason for the failure. The other most common reason a ladder fails seems to me to be to tight of a vac system. Producers that are constantly checking their lines seem to not like ladders quite often. I theorize that their systems have much lass bubbles in them due to well installed connections and well seated taps, that the supply of sap to the ladder is accompanied by far less bubbles and is lifted more slowly up the ladder.
I totally understand how hard it is to spend numerous hours to get your system so that it is air tight and how difficult it can be to wrap ones mind around adding tiny little bubbles to the system even when it will reap tremendous benefits.

This is nearly as difficult as it is to add water to syrup; but when the density is to high you are giving product away and losing money.

So I am curious as to how much experience you and GS have working with ladders and lifts?

Thanks
Ben

[unc23win]

I understand that you are a ladder person, but why would he go to the trouble of setting up ladders when he can install the lifts he already has? I sure wouldn't that's for sure.

I have a single line lift for 50ish taps after looking at all options and talking to many producers its simple and easy and doesn't use an introduced leak. 50 taps is not worth lowering cfms on the rest to me. The advice I was given was set it up and forget about it and take what you can get, which I think is excellent advice. I could always build a little outhouse to house a releaser and use a pump as it is right by the house, but it would take a few years for 50 taps to be worth it.

[BreezyHill]

50 taps is not worth lowering cfms on the rest to me. The advice I was given was set it up and forget about it and take what you can get, which I think is excellent advice.

Now I understand. Thanks

I am one of those that goes out and checks for leaks at least three times a week. I am of the theory that once it is installed and working you make all efforts necessary to improve the design and efficiency to harvest the most you can from your investment in equipment and property.

Depending on how ones system is setup the ladder will have absolutely no affect on vacuum. All my mains connect to manifolds connected to the releaser and have ample cfms supplied to have no negative affects on any other mains in the bush.

Since I use an electric releaser I have plenty of cfms to over come a minuet 0.1 cfm. Shucks that is the cfms needed for 10 taps... to bring 250 to the sugar house with no trucking, no extra tanks, no filling remote gas tanks, and no laying hundreds of dollars of electrical lines in the woods that costs a bunch; and this season it will bring another 250 taps with the inclusion of 2 12' ladders and 1 injector, and another 200 to the on ladder up on the current ladder system, with no additional ladders on that mains.

From my perspective the goal for your 50 taps should be to bring you in another 25 gallons of syrup. If they aren't, they are a drag on your production average and need some TLC to get tem up to par.

But, I am in this for a profit and since you cant cull low producing taps, by sending them to market, you just have to fine tune the system.

Every tap helps put a child thru college...next year there will be two and the year after that the third will be there also. Education and taxes are where my profits go; so pardon my desire for top production, for my ends justify the means.

I do respect your position to accept what you get from those taps; but feel that most people are looking for the most they can get from every tap as I do.

Thanks for the explanation of your point of view.

Ben

Ben

[GeneralStark]

I edited my first post to clarify my point about ladders freezing, and taking time to thaw, thus reducing productivity. I have used ladders in the past, and now I use a sap lifter for about 175 taps on a flat slope around the sugarhouse.

I don't really see the point in debating this subject. We'll just have to agree to disagree regarding production levels using ladders.

[unc23win]

I don't really see the point in debating this subject. We'll just have to agree to disagree regarding production levels using ladders.

I agree with GeneralStark.

Although I must say I don't really feel it is necessary for Breezy to allude to the fact that my system is not up to par or that I don't strive for the most or that I don't check for leaks or that I don't have ample cfms. I know I never said that ladders suck what I said was if I had a lift sitting around I would use it and I also said there are lots ways to collect sap.

[cropseyvillemark]

Ben,I do have the pump regulated to that vac level. I am running it stock with just a fan blowing on it. I seam to generate plenty of exhaust vapor now, kind of afraid to let it run much hotter.

[BreezyHill]

I don't really see the point in debating this subject. We'll just have to agree to disagree regarding production levels using ladders.

Thanks for the clarification in the edit.

The reason to debate a subject is for clarity of a persons point of view, and explanation of where that point is based.

Yes you will loose vac thru any lifting apparatus due to there is not a clear path for gases to transfer across the top of the sap flow. When ladders are sized properly this lose can be minimized to less than an inch per ladder. On my system there is only a measurable lose of vac after the 3rd ladder. This was corrected with the addition of a dry line to this ladder to provide additional cfms past the ladder thru a single large riser. This large riser demonstrate the length of time that a large riser takes to thaw in the am. The large riser which is the same size as a lifter would use took between 45 and 60 minutes longer than the small 5/16 ladder risers. The larger thermal mass of the large line takes more time to thaw thus limiting the time of vac to the lines.

I actually took the time to watch the freezing of the line one night to try and figure a better fix. On every lifter their is sap that is left on the walls of the tubing, called slippage. This slippage stops moving up for a moment and freezes to the tubing wall. Smaller risers have less slippage due to how fast a small bubble lifts a large column of sap, thus there is far less slippage and they didn't freeze until slush formed in the main line. The large riser finally stopped work at this time also but the tubing was reduced to nearly the same size as the small riser with ice. The larger the line the larger the bubble needs to be to raise the column of sap. Larger bubbles correlate to more air injected.

While our operation has used ladders since the 1970's it has only been the last two seasons that I have made great advances in their efficiency from design change and am happy to share what I have learned with all; because it is from advances in production that our industry will survive and prosper.

Ben

[Moser's Maple]

I am not expressing any opinion here. Only thing I can say if you have a way of doing something different or even better.... Words can be read but pictures say a 1000 words and a lot can be gained from pictures.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

10255
I went from stars to this, my opionion this system works better for me

[cropseyvillemark]

Jake, I agree completely with you about photos. I find yours very helpful...Thank you

[cropseyvillemark]

The Ogden system looks interesting. I'm confused about what is happening at the bottom. Is it 2 mains coming from different directions plus a drain? Thanks for everyones input.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

3 mainlines coming in with 4 pipes lifting

[noreast maple]

10255
I went from stars to this, my opionion this system works better for me How does this work, fairly fast moving sap or does it slow it down a bit? just currious. Also do you loose any vac beyound the ladder ? if you do , about how much?

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

How does this work, fairly fast moving sap or does it slow it down a bit? just currious. Also do you loose any vac beyound the ladder ? if you do , about how much?

sap goes thru pretty fast, on a heavy run it will lose at the most 2 inches, before the lift i 23 inches and behind it 21.this lift has 310 taps on it. I have another lift 300 feet further in the woods and on a heavy run it will be as low as 15"

[Sunday Rock Maple]

before the lift i 23 inches and behind it 21.this lift has 310 taps on it. I have another lift 300 feet further in the woods and on a heavy run it will be as low as 15"

This is an excellent example of why I come to the Mapletrader and of the value it has been to our operation. We have a two pipe ladder very similar to this with about 350 taps on it, a second with about 250, a third with about 150 and a fourth with about 75. Our bush is very flat and these are all separate low points and on strong runs we have lost up to 6" of vacuum at the ladders. I think we're gonna give this dry line with a chamber set up a try as it's simple and can be done without a lot of capital (we were thinking of buying reverse slope releasers as a solution prior to reading this post).

Thanks Ogden!

[unc23win]

I am no expert on lifts, but have either of you tried using a whip like in the picture to get the vacuum past the lift? In Ogdens the whip would be off the dry line before the manifold then down to the line or lines past the lift. From the sounds of it you both have quite a few taps on each lift, which results in quite a bit of sap that can choke the vacuum off past the lift. The lower part of this whip could be a little too close to the lift, but its only 50 taps and gets quite a bit of sun. Time will tell.

10272

[ldick]

I am no expert on lifts, but have either of you tried using a whip like in the picture to get the vacuum past the lift? In Ogdens the whip would be off the dry line before the manifold then down to the line or lines past the lift. From the sounds of it you both have quite a few taps on each lift, which results in quite a bit of sap that can choke the vacuum off past the lift. The lower part of this whip could be a little too close to the lift, but its only 50 taps and gets quite a bit of sun. Time will tell.

10272

I was wondering the same thing. Seems like a good idea but not sure how it might work in practice?

[unc23win]

The whip will provide vacuum I modeled mine after others mine is only 50 taps and all 1" line so I shouldn't have to worry about choking off vacuum. You should not have to loose 6" for a lift thus the purpose of a whip.

[rhwells2003]

I am no expert on lifts, but have either of you tried using a whip like in the picture to get the vacuum past the lift? In Ogdens the whip would be off the dry line before the manifold then down to the line or lines past the lift. From the sounds of it you both have quite a few taps on each lift, which results in quite a bit of sap that can choke the vacuum off past the lift. The lower part of this whip could be a little too close to the lift, but its only 50 taps and gets quite a bit of sun. Time will tell.

10272

Ok I guess I'm confused and this will show my lack of experience in this, but I'm extremely interested b/c I have two sections (1 with 40-50 taps, the other with 20-30 taps) that I was going to set-up next year with some sort of ladder. how does this "ladder" with 1" pipe work? I understand the star set-ups with several 5/16" lines and the sap traveling up the 5/16 on gas bubbles. But isn't the 1" line to big to carry gas bubbles and sap?

[unc23win]

Like I said I am no expert this is new for me for 15, but both methods work. The single or dual line is suppose to work about the same and the 5/16" spider fittings although the diameter of the pipe is different. With bigger pipe from what I have been told there is some slippage of sap, but it does work. I talked to quite a few people who use some sort of lift or ladder such as single or double pipes or 5/16" spider fittings. I decided to try the single pipe because it is relatively easy to set up and if it produces the same results Why do more work? I also asked a trader with more experience with line lifts about maybe necking the pipe down and he said he didn't think it would matter. Either way a whip will help get better vacuum beyond the lift and the goal is to maintain the same level if possible.

[BreezyHill]

Ok I guess I'm confused and this will show my lack of experience in this, but I'm extremely interested b/c I have two sections (1 with 40-50 taps, the other with 20-30 taps) that I was going to set-up next year with some sort of ladder. how does this "ladder" with 1" pipe work? I understand the star set-ups with several 5/16" lines and the sap traveling up the 5/16 on gas bubbles. But isn't the 1" line to big to carry gas bubbles and sap?

I have had ladders in our operation for over 30 years. Last year I tried some tests with 1" lines and was...less than satisfied.

You are totally correct that it takes more air to lift in a 1" than 5/16" risers due to the simple size difference. Then you factor in the amount of sap that slips down the tube around the bubbles and ...in my opinion the 1" risers do not work anywhere.

That being said I will be trying 1/2" risers to see if I can get them to function efficiently.

This season I will be adding another 450taps to my ladders.

On my main ladder line there are 7 consecutive ladders over the length of the approximate 1200'. During peak flow the lowest I have seen the vac get to was 24" with 29"at the sugar house. I do design mine different than many people and the sap flies thru the lines.

send me a pm if you need some assistance in design.

Ben

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

I am no expert on lifts, but have either of you tried using a whip like in the picture to get the vacuum past the lift? In Ogdens the whip would be off the dry line before the manifold then down to the line or lines past the lift. From the sounds of it you both have quite a few taps on each lift, which results in quite a bit of sap that can choke the vacuum off past the lift. The lower part of this whip could be a little too close to the lift, but its only 50 taps and gets quite a bit of sun. Time will tell.

10272 I cant understand how the whip will work any better. If you add another line it wont lift anything untill the first line is full.

[unc23win]

Right the whip won't help lift it is to help maintain vacuum past the lift whether you use the stars or line lifts, so you don't go from 23" to 15". Like I said I am no expert, but I have talked to many people so I am trying it this way.

[markct]

The whip will simply be another tube to lift sap. It takes energy to lift sap and in our case energy is vacuum, cant get something for nothing

[Super Sapper]

Won't the whip take the gas bubbles out before the lift? If so you will have nothing to lift the sap unless you add a bleeder.

[markct]

I think it will simply make the vac level equal thus no pressure difference to push the sap up.

[BreezyHill]

IF trying to lift sap in an angled line, failure is in the cards. The sap will not lift in a line much larger than the 5/16 that does not travel vertically. The bubble will slip by and the sap will be pulled down by gravity.

The use of a whip style connection would only work for vacuum transferal and this needs to be done very carefully as you will be removing the natural bubbles of the line and need to inject more air to the system to get efficiency in the risers.
There is a formula as to how far from the riser to where the whip should enter the feeder mainline. It is under further refinement, but an early version can be found from your CDL dealer.
Ladders are rather complex to design and take a little time to get to work well. NO disrespect intended but; a small number of taps on a ladder is easy to accomplish larger numbers are much more complex and use the same principals as small numbers how ever they require more attention to detail.

I am happy to share what has worked on our farm since the 1970's, but please relize that I am always looking for improvement and willing to try new ideas.

I do have a dry line on part of my 7 ladder series mainline and will be extending it when the weather cooperates. I don't like being nearly 20' in the air on a ladder without gloves in single digits. When I say dry line it is an additional line that has ladders to conduct what ever sap enters that system when the other line floods in order to maintain my vacuum level of 28+" to the last tap of that mainline after ladder #7. Last season I started to drop vac level after ladder #3 and it affected ladder #5 the most. So I am forced to extend the dry line past #3. In the future I will be adding an additional colored wet line to this system to have cooler sap during end of season as the colored lines do run cooler and easier to see what the flow is doing.

I will be trying a whip connection that will easily be capped off if it fails and an extension to the next ladder in line will be made. I have plenty of pump(s) to handle the tiny additional amount of air to inject if the whip pulls all the bubbles off prior to the next ladder in the line.

My retubing of our bush is a work in progress. I will be tapping sections of the bush that have finally reach tapping size.

Ben

[Super Sapper]

Ladders and lifts are essentially air lift pumps. An air lift pump can work without vacuum. We have used them at work in the past. The rising air bubble pushes the liquid up and out. If you take out the air (gas) before the lift it will have nothing to push the sap.

[rhwells2003]

Ben I tried to send you a PM but your box is full so it wont allow it.

so my situation I'm probably going to add 80 or so taps from two different sections. One section of 50 or so taps will need to be lifted 8-10' to go up over my driveway, but will be close to my releaser so should have good vac. My other section of 20-30 taps also needs to go up about 8-10' but that will be to get to the end of an existing 1" main, and this area is probably 1000' from the releaser. I will say that there's probably only going to be 100 taps prior to that ladder so it should have decent vac volume left in the pipe prior to the ladder.

My plan was just two star fittings with 5/16" lines. Thoughts? Will that work?

[ldick]

Sorry being from relatively flat country I am new to lifts and ladders. Is it possible to have both a wet and dry line upstream of a lift or ladder? I think that is basically what is being discussed here but not sure so thought I better ask.

[BreezyHill]

Ben I tried to send you a PM but your box is full so it wont allow it.

so my situation I'm probably going to add 80 or so taps from two different sections. One section of 50 or so taps will need to be lifted 8-10' to go up over my driveway, but will be close to my releaser so should have good vac. My other section of 20-30 taps also needs to go up about 8-10' but that will be to get to the end of an existing 1" main, and this area is probably 1000' from the releaser. I will say that there's probably only going to be 100 taps prior to that ladder so it should have decent vac volume left in the pipe prior to the ladder.

My plan was just two star fittings with 5/16" lines. Thoughts? Will that work?

If using a 3/4" the use of a single 6 way star will be equal in volume plus a little for friction losses.. On 1" it is 10.2 so 2 6 ways makes up for the added friction loss. I would look at getting to 13" over the driveway so that if you get a fed ex truck or large box truck in the yard you wont need to worry. If you have a feeder line to the ladder base at waist height of 3' then a 10' ladder will work out nice. On each riser I like to use 18-20 taps per 5/16 riser. When I run fewer I tend to run into flooding issues. If you don't inject air you can reduce this number to 12-15. I know a friend that likes 6 for his system.

I am a math/science person...if on paper it will work then it is just a matter of figuring it out.

Watch your ladder(s) and you will learn a bunch. Don't be afraid of experimenting. I did on many occasions and learned a lot.

One experiment was a y on a ladder that was flooding a lot. Ended up being chips in the star fitting...but I would pop off the cap on the Y to clear the riser. Then cap it and the ladder was fine for a while.

The earlier post about energy is very correct! We are using a pump to create a void for the sap to go to...or air...and the sap rides along for the trip up the riser. I have a vacuum tester and a hole about 1/8" is equal to 0.2 CFM. Two years ago I tried to see how large a hole I needed to inject air. A 28 ga hypo needle is way to big. I figure that all by injectors added together are around 0.15 CFM. So don't freak out over adding a 1/8" brass needle valve and cracking it open and letting it have a tiny bit of air.

Sorry about the inbox. A bunch of messages while I was on the road today. :(

Try the pm again please.

Ben

[BreezyHill]

10620
Gordon and others, Here is the pic of the injector. 1/8" brass needle valve. In this location it is used to clear a single riser and the mainline. This is the one that had the chips in it, injector is now else where and the y is capped. As an injector I simply adjust it by reading my vac gauge. I want the highest vac reading during peak flow. This can take as long as 10 minutes and I will check it for a couple of runs and then let it be. I have plenty f pump capacity but extra air injection will affect vac past the injection point, but a rapidly flowing ladder will positively affect vac readings as will a feeder line that does not have pooling. I find that a steady flow of sap to the ladders that does not fill the tubing has the best vac down the line. My injectors are opened to 1/2 turn and then turned down to 1/4 turn. If you open to 1/4 the seat is not separated evenly.

10621

This is ladder #3 in a series of 7. The 1" riser was for a dry line to get more vac to the system and the y onto the main was turned so that it would not take all of the air from the other risers. This 1" riser will be replaced with 4 1/2" risers for this season to see how much slippage is in a 1/2" line. If they work well here then #2 will get the same upgrade and ladder #1 will be last upgraded as it is shorter and doesn't seem to have the same issues at 12' that I do at 16 and 18'. When I build new ladders I don't go over 14', do to the difference those couple of feet make in efficiency. This summer#3 will also get an additional wet line that will be CDL blue to cool the sap in the end of seasons warm spells. Those risers seem to heat the sap more than running in the sloped lines. Its only a few degrees but it makes a difference. I still need the black to thaw the large 1" lines should they freeze next to the brook. Slush is easily pulled thru the sloped tubing but it packs in the top spiders and elbows.

I will also be extending the dry line further out the feeder line and y in as I have added two more 1" lateral mains to this line and another to the top of the ladder. The extension will y in from the top to just provide vac so the injector that feeds the base of ladder #3 will likely need to be adjusted to make up for the removal of all the air from the system. I will have a valve on the dry connection to see if it is helping or hindering the ladders.

The 4 - 1/2" risers will be connecting to a 2" pvc manifold to reduce slippage as much as possible.

The most important thing to remember is that not every bush is the same. They all need to be treated a little differently to get the most sap out of them.

Feel free to come and take a look at the way I have retubed the bush. I also have another bush to retube that will need a 50 foot elevation change over about a 45' run. Where I want to place the ladders is very steep and the feeder lines will be short. One may only be 6' long to feed from the top of a ladder to the bottom of the next and be at 2% slope. Steep ridge with 75 taps along a shelf at the bottom.

Hope this answered your question.

Ben

[ldick]

Sorry being from relatively flat country I am new to lifts and ladders. Is it possible to have both a wet and dry line upstream of a lift or ladder? I think that is basically what is being discussed here but not sure so thought I better ask.

Anyone have any thoughts about this?

[NTBugtraq]

So, this year I have purchased a vac pump called The Guzzler, model 669512 from CDL (page 37 of their catalog). It says it can do up to 400 taps (I have 175 this year), and up to 22”. Clearly not “High Vacuum”.
I have read people saying that they’ve run vacuum as low as 15” “effectively” (perhaps not as “efficiently” as possible, but cost of the pump is a serious consideration for me).
My bush is very up and down, with the lowest trees being perhaps 15’-20’ below the highest. I have the possibility of doubling the number of taps if I use ladders. There’s no way I am using anything electrical (way too expensive).

So, my questions are:


Can I do any ladders with this pump?
If I use 10 x 5’ ladders, is that less effective than 5 x 10’? IOWs, does every ladder lose hg, or is it more dependent on the height of the ladder?
Can I use a lift on a lateral?
I don’t have a lot of specifications on the vac I’ve bought, but its 1/8 hp, will it handle ladders and if so, is there a limit to what it can do? How do I determine the limit without actually testing it in the field?

[regor0]

I am no expert on lifts, but have either of you tried using a whip like in the picture to get the vacuum past the lift? In Ogdens the whip would be off the dry line before the manifold then down to the line or lines past the lift. From the sounds of it you both have quite a few taps on each lift, which results in quite a bit of sap that can choke the vacuum off past the lift. The lower part of this whip could be a little too close to the lift, but its only 50 taps and gets quite a bit of sun. Time will tell.

10272

How did you single pipe with whip sap ladder work?

[unc23win]

The lift portion worked with 1" but works better with 1/2". Some guys are making manifolds out of PVC and running 1/2" straight in the bottom.

[BreezyHill]

119711197211973Mine failed. Ladders of the height that I run are dependent on air bubbles in the sap stream to get a faster lift to the top and to the releaser. A whip style removes those air bubbles and the sap is left sitting at the lowest point...plugging or pooling in the line.

I have tried 1" & 3/4" single lifts and both exhibit similar pit falls.

For best results have the lift go straight up into a manifold. Elbows cause slippage and a curved tube at the top will cause separation of flow and major slippage. on a 5/16 the slippage is very minimal and curves work fine.

Since the feb 2015 post the results are in on our 1/2" risers and they worked superb. Thawed faster and ran longer than did the 5/16 ladder right next to it. I even have a pic of ice sickle forming and the ladder is still running. 2" manifold on top had the best results and the bottom conections were done with 1 x 1/2 x 1" tees in the tubing. 4 risers for a 1" line worked awesome.

The inserts are positioned in a fashion so that the fast moving sap will flow around the manifold to limit splashing and keep vac transfer to a maximum and allow good flow to the wet line on the manifold. Ladder Site #1 will have a black dry line to the top of the manifold and a blue wet line to try and keep sap temps in late season as low as possible.

I can get more pics if one needs.

Ben

[nymapleguy607]

119711197211973Mine failed. Ladders of the height that I run are dependent on air bubbles in the sap stream to get a faster lift to the top and to the releaser. A whip style removes those air bubbles and the sap is left sitting at the lowest point...plugging or pooling in the line.

I have tried 1" & 3/4" single lifts and both exhibit similar pit falls.

For best results have the lift go straight up into a manifold. Elbows cause slippage and a curved tube at the top will cause separation of flow and major slippage. on a 5/16 the slippage is very minimal and curves work fine.

Since the feb 2015 post the results are in on our 1/2" risers and they worked superb. Thawed faster and ran longer than did the 5/16 ladder right next to it. I even have a pic of ice sickle forming and the ladder is still running. 2" manifold on top had the best results and the bottom conections were done with 1 x 1/2 x 1" tees in the tubing. 4 risers for a 1" line worked awesome.

The inserts are positioned in a fashion so that the fast moving sap will flow around the manifold to limit splashing and keep vac transfer to a maximum and allow good flow to the wet line on the manifold. Ladder Site #1 will have a black dry line to the top of the manifold and a blue wet line to try and keep sap temps in late season as low as possible.

I can get more pics if one needs.

Ben

Ben, Could you post some more pictures of your lifter? I have a section of trees in a ravine I want to tap, I was going to use star ladders but I like your design better.

[regor0]

sap goes thru pretty fast, on a heavy run it will lose at the most 2 inches, before the lift i 23 inches and behind it 21.this lift has 310 taps on it. I have another lift 300 feet further in the woods and on a heavy run it will be as low as 15"

What size pipe are you using for your pipes going up?

[BreezyHill]

11974119751197611977

These are the top manifold pics. The 1" elbows were cut down to the pvc in the center for better flow and total drainage.

Be careful in threading the risers so that you get a good seal. I also use a gas & water thread seal dope to keep seal 100%.

I also dope the pvc caps and slide them on so that clean is easier.

I will edit in a pic of the bottom when I get a chance or add a reply with it.

To attach the manifold to the tree I used rapid tie from CDL. There may be an advantage to using a painted backing board and plumbers tape to secure the manifold at a preferred slope. It was a cold morning and the sap was flowing so I jumped in the bucket tractor bucket and had the wife raise me up and get it in place quickly. Took about 10 minutes to get in place.

It was all setup with the risers attached at the top so I only had to trim them to their bottom connection point.

I like to have some blue between the Tees on the bottom to see the flow to make adjusting the riser's flow easier.

If there is something else you need let me know.

Ben

[nymapleguy607]

Okay so let me see if I have this right..

The 1" elbows on the manifold hook into the wet/dry line, There are 4, 1/2" lift lines, the bottoms just Tee into the lower line being lifted, ( I assume the tee is pointing up towards the manifold). The caps on the manifold are just sealed with pipe dope and not glued. So now my question is what is the 5th pipe nipple on the end near the cap for?

[BreezyHill]

Great question on the 5th nipple....that was a f up. I lost count when drilling holes and even installed it into the ladder. I tested it with the four and plugging off the 5th and it ran faster with no change in vac transfer. I latter rehooked and finished the season with it in to test vac transfer further down the line but found no noticeable difference.

When it stops raining I will put in a pic of the bottom as they do not come straight up. If you pull of the top you will get just air on the first one or even two and the ladder will pool.

[morningstarfarm]

I have several ladders I will have to use this year..thinking about trying the 1/2" lines..do you have a pic of how you did the bottom manifold? Also, do you use a controlled air leak?...thx

[cropseyvillemark]

Is there a prescribed distance between the stars when using more than 1?

[BreezyHill]

12263 Side view of the bottom manifold that I use.


12264 Looking down the main view to show how you will need to turn the riser feed fitting to balance the amount of sap and air in the line.

12265 This is an 18' ladder 1" feeder to 1" at the top. The 1" riser was an experiment that failed. I had the idea of adding a dry line to this ladder to see if it would work but it did not preform as desired. I also found out that 5/16 was much more efficient than a 1" riser with this experiment.

12266 This is my injector. 1/8" brass needle valve...sourced thru amazon or ebay...where ever the cheapest. Most are opened 1/4 turn to open the orifice and turned back to 1/8 turn or slightly less.

I only want enough injected air to speed the sap thru the ladder. Every ladder has an injector but not every injector is open. Adjust at peak flow and walk away.

Sorry for some reason the email notices are not coming thru lately to me.

Ben

[BreezyHill]

Is there a prescribed distance between the stars when using more than 1?

enough to put a section of blue tubing to see the flow is best. 4-6" worked well for me. Some were black if it was a shade issue at the base of the tree.

[lew]

Where exactly did you put the needle valves?

[BreezyHill]

I like it close enough I can see the flow of the ladder; but far enough that it will produce an even flow of bubbles. The closest is on the 18' ladder and enters thru a lateral's saddle at about 4' from the ladder. The furthest is 50' from ladder #2 that is 16' tall. 10' seems to be a good distance as you can watch the flow even on a cloudy day on the 1/2" risers. CDL semi rigid is great tubing for a spider style ladder as it is very easy to watch the flow and bubbles.

They all enter thru a saddle into the main line.

[lew]

I was thinking you would want them as close as possible to the riser so as to eliminate as much pooling as possible, not totally but a lot. I was thinking 6 inches or so. Is there a reason you are keeping them farther than this?

[BreezyHill]

If they are to close you notice that the air will not form bubbles; but a thin line of air that increases the amount of air needed to form the bubble.

IF you are set correctly in the amount of injection the pooling will end.

Pooling is a vac transfer killer. You want sap and bubble or best of all is sap flow on the bottom and pocket on top that the air rushes to the ladder and forces the sap up the riser quickly.

I have one line that I did not have the saddle in the right spot...to close...so I went another 10' and added a saddle and this worked much better.

[lew]

Thanks for the insight.

[cropseyvillemark]

So I opted for the star ladders. I'm happy about getting all of the sap out without dumping buckets. Not so happy about the amount of vac at the taps. I have 600' of wet/dry(1.25" & 1"). Then 4 ladders(3 10's and a12'). Then 2 500 ft 1" mains totaling 210 taps. all new tubing. I started w/2-6way stars on each. I would get 21-22" at the releaser and at the top of the 1st ladder, but only 10" after the last ladder and 10" at the end of each main. I added injectors,no difference. I added a 3rd star to each. Then I had 18-19" at the top and 12" at the bottom. not enough pump? or is this all that I should expect?

[mellondome]

Vacuum doesn't transfer well through liquid. Probably still need more star lifts.

[BreezyHill]

send me a pm, I think I am missing something in your design.

[PCFarms]

Hello all,

I have a question for my sap ladder, this last year was my first experience with one and I was some what disappointed with the results.

There are about 550 taps on the far side of the bush that I have to lift up a steep hill to get flowing down to the pump house, its about a 38' hill and I have two 20' sap ladders to get up and over (its pretty steep - 38' rise over about 100 feet). Each ladder has two 1/2" risers. At the base of the lower ladder, I have an injector/drain that I use to control the flow, its just a 3/4" valve. I would have it open the tinniest amount and that would work well - I had to find the optimum where not enough air would result in sap overwhelming the ladder and stalling it vs. letting in too much air. We run really strong vacuum in the bush around 27" (when I come back from leak checking and everything is tight). The best I got past the ladder was 12" and typically I was getting 7". I would really like to improve this for next year, ideally getting perfect vacuum up there as well. At the bottom of the ladder, I have two 3/4" mainlines and one 1" mainline and at the top I have 1 1/4" dry line and a 3/4" wet. There is no vacuum transfer from the top to the bottom

My first question is what I did wrong, and how can I make the current system work better?
I have a few ideas on why it wasn't working well - I dont have enough risers, the rise of 20' is too much for the ladder, I need a vacuum transfer line, or 1/2" is not the way to go, although some have had success with it. I am also worried that if I add a vacuum transfer line, not enough air would get into the ladder to move the sap.

My Second question is about how I could make 5/16" work with a slight modification to typical designs.
Right now, I am thinking to use 5/16s and stars to get it working. The rule of thumb is about 1 star per 50 for about 11 stars which is an enormous amount, but if it is what gets the job done then so be it. (Two ladder at 22 stars each - 44 altogether), I would add in a vacuum transfer line as well.
Understanding that the primary mechanism for sap ladders is air push sap up through the risers, I was thinking that I could place an injector into each 5/16 riser, this insures that all the injected air goes into the risers and not into the vacuum transfer line. I would install the injectors using a tee on each riser, from there the injectors would collect into another set of stars which would connect into a manifold on which I would put a valve to control air flow into the injectors. By doing this, I could really maximize the efficiency of the injected air and I could probably get away with far fewer stars - perhaps 4 or 5. Has anyone tried this before?

Ben, you mentioned that you have a CFM tester - what do you use? We have a rotameter that can measure vacuum pumps between 10 and 100 CFM, but it must be vertical to work - A little impractical for mainlines.

Thanks for your input,
Tony

[nymapleguy607]

I am not one to typically recommend buying a factory built option, but for the number of taps and the height you want to lift I would recommend going with one of CDL's sap lifters. The reason being it has a float to trip and lift the sap so you dont need the constant leak in the system.

[GeneralStark]

The fundamental question is what is your goal with those 550 taps? Are you just trying to grab some extra sap or do you want to maximize production?

There is no way you will achieve 27" after a series of ladder with that height of lift, regardless of what anyone tells you, so if that is actually your goal you may want to consider pumping the sap out of there. If you are willing to sacrifice a little vacuum, you could consider reverse slope releasers or sap lifters.

Or if you are happy with a moderate to considerable loss of vacuum (as you experienced) you could possibly modify your ladders to work more effectively.

Using air to move sap uphill will always be more inefficient than pumping it.

[Ontario Ian]

how far is your lifter from pump? do you have a vacuum gauge at the top of lifter? 2 half inch risers are not enough for 550 taps. vacuum transfer line will not work very well as sap will try to climb the line. I think you just need a couple more risers and try and keep each lift around 12' max. I also have better luck with the air injection a couple feet back from the lifter, I use a multi fitting with a 5/16 needle valve.

I lift 800 taps with 4-1inch risers, still getting some bugs out, my problem is not enough cfm at top of ladder (1500' from pump), running a new 1 1/4 wet/dry line to the lifter this fall will hopefully fix that.

hope this Helps

[BreezyHill]

Tony, In my experience with working with ladders for the last 4 decades is it is all in the design and setup.
Some will say they don't work but many also thought the world was flat at one time also.

My tallest ladder is 18' and I will not build another that is taller than 16'. In few seasons we will be going over a 50' cliff. This will be accomplished by using 4 ladders that will be connected to a 1" x 1" Wet/Dry line on the highest ladder thru a 2" pvc manifold. I only use 1/8" brass needle valves for injectors of micro bubbles and they need to be placed so that the bubbles are in the feeder line back at least 50' from the ladder. When located to close to the ladder the affect is large bubbles entering the ladder and blocking the sap flow to the ladder. This new setup will only need 1 injector as there will be no new taps entering the system between ladders.

I like a 2% slope to the feeder line so that it will drain to the ladder efficiently.

1/2" risers have worked the best for my and I have tried 5/16, 1/2, 3/4, & 1". 1/2" had the best efficiency of flow rate, thawed quickest in side by side trials, and ran the longest before freezing.

To have 10" or less after a ladder there has to be a pool of sap in the feeder line of the ladder or the ladder is stalled. The drain at the bottom of the ladder was a tool I used about 3 years ago and have removed from all 10 of my current ladders. I found they were a waste of time and a location that a fatal leak issue could occur at.

My CFM tester is a Delaval CFM tester. It is a pump tester that has a built in vac gauge. The rotameter would work if you could build a pvc tube adapter and instll a vac gauge and a valve to adjust the flow into the tube inorder to change the vac reading.14439

Remember that a ladder is applied science...if you apply a force at the wrong spot the science will fail.

Depending on your pump and distances we should be able to get you to 25 past the ladders. I do 24 after 7 ladders in series. Looking to better that with a new manifold install in the future.

I can get you going and you will be pleased at the results. If you search other ladder posts you will see other pics of my ladders and the manifolds I build. I cant build you one but happy to show the pics of how to do it. On the 1/2" risers there are a few tricks to get good balance on the risers but that will have to wait for another time.

I am currently limited by my nuro doc on my pc useage but I get a couple hours a day now. Got hit just over a month ago by a drunk that thought he could drive a car after drinking 25 beers in 8 hours. Our bush may be taking a back seat this season if I don't get the doc's approval. lifting only 20# by Dec 1 isn't going to cut it, but every day above the grass is a good day! But concussions are nothing to mess with.

Ben

[PCFarms]

Thanks for the responses, I think i will stick to the 1/2" risers and add a few more. How many would you put in for 550 taps?
In regards to the height of individual ladders - could I split my 20' ladders into two and keep them in the same location? So 10" and half way up I put in a manifold to split it up?

The ladder is about 1000' from the vacuum system, but the 1 1/4" dry should be fine for it.

Ben - hope you get better before the season! I cant imagine sitting it out :)

[BreezyHill]

Thanks! Has to listen to the nuro doc and limit pc use for a bit.

the length of the rise is the issue. The taller the rise of the ladder the more sap that clings to the side of the pipe and you lose efficiency.
The other killer is an elbow at the top. I build the manifold so that I use an insert into the off center of the bottom of the manifold. One in the center and the other 4 for a 1" feeder are staggered around the bottom 1/4 or so of the manifold. This way there is no sap pooling over the riser opening.

When the rapid flowing sap hits the elbow a good part of it will slide back down the riser. Adding more on top of the next bubble.

I have a glass ladder in the sugar house and have changed my manifold designs from learning from this ladder.

The amount of air that is needed to run a ladder is very small to non if you have a leak in the system.

Injected air expands tremendously when it gets into a high vacuum situation.

Send me a pm.

Ben