Help!! No Fire

[325abn]

Well I have everything put together, the fuel system is well bled, sounds like everthing is running ok but yet no fire :cry: :cry:

When I first put power to the burner it fired off but the fire went out so I bled the line a tad bit more and tried again and no fire.

I continued to put power to it but it wont fire even after running for a minute or so. A few times it fired but did not take off.

Any thought or ideas?

Does anyone know how a normal home furnace burner (Beckett) should be wired when not useing a thermostat? I did not touch the wires since I bought the rig, I do have a orange and a black wire that are not connected to anything. I am not sure if they were hooked to anything prior.

How long after putting power to the burner should if fire?

[royalmaple]

I'm not a burner tech, but here is something you may want to check.

The thermostat wires either need to go a thermostat, or you loop them together so the unit is calling for heat all the time.

The blower should start right up when you throw the switch, but the actual firing will take place maybe 20 seconds or almost instantly after the unit kicks on.

I'd trace out the thermostat wires first.

If the unit shut off prematurely you may have to push down on the reset button, like a circuit breaker on the burner.

[325abn]

OK so the thermostat wires need to be a dead short. I will go out and try that.

Thanks.

I found the wiring diagram online but my thermostat wire are not shorted.

Thanks :D :D

[Fred Henderson]

sounds like your electros are not firing. Those are the 2 little pointed metal points just above and in front of the nozzle. There has to be a constant spark between them. When the fire stopped the first time was the motor still running?

[brookledge]

Another thing to check is the photo eye in side. If the flame does not ignite it will shut it down so that the oil doesn't continue to flow.
But yiur problem seems like the thermostat wire.
Keith

[802maple]

Your transformer could be burnt out also or you could have a loose connection on it.

[Sugarmaker]

325abn,
Not a oil guy, but sounds like if it fired the first time you are not to far off.
You mentioned air in the line. I would double check that. Several areas that are general tune up things have been mentioned. Electrode distance. Constant spark between electrodes? Call your local furnace man and have him take a look. Should fire within seconds of oil being pumped through. If you have oil then maybe electrical :?:

Chris

[325abn]

Darn!!

All the wiring is now correct too include the thermostat being shorted. But still no fire. I know I am getting fuel because I can see it when i flip the transformer up.

I dont think the igniter is working. Should there be continuity between the electrode as measured at the spot where the tranformer makes contact? Because I have an open there.

[325abn]

sounds like your electros are not firing. Those are the 2 little pointed metal points just above and in front of the nozzle. There has to be a constant spark between them. When the fire stopped the first time was the motor still running?

Yes I believe the motor stayed running.

[802maple]

If the motor is running then it is most likely something to do with your electrodes or transformer. I'm assuming this is a used burner and it is not uncommon for transformers to brake down just like that. Does the burner seem to be pumping in fuel? if it is then something is wrong in the transformer or electrode area, just don't check to see if it is pumping fuel until you turn the burner off

[Fred Henderson]

When you do get it going remember that there is a lot of unburned fuel in there so when it does light off open any inspection door that you have to give as much air as you can. Those electrodes have to have constant ignition. In other words there has to be a spark across them while the burner is on.If the transformer has the springs that touch a couple of flat metal strips the strips might be dirty or there is no contact between spring and strip. Some trouble shooting things to check, are igniters properly adjusted, do you have constant ignition, is the tranformer putting out the right amount of volts( secondary).

[325abn]

I cleaned the transformer springs and the spring contacts the electrodes seem to be adjusted correctly I am getting fuel.

But still no FIRE!

I am convinced I have a bad tramformer. I just happen to have a spare furnace down cellar that I will pull parts of in the AM!

[Fred Henderson]

To test the transformer hold a screwdrive across the springs. You should be able to draw about a 3/4" arc.

[cheesegenie]

Years back I had to keep about 10 old furnaces running in my
greehouses. You likely will have to bypass the relay, because they
kick out if there is no ignition ,a safety thing. I have seen all the
problems listed above by the other guys. Most common problem I
had when no fire, was dirty nozzles. If they are dirty the spray pattern
doesn't meet the arc,hard to clean,I always kept spare nozzles.
Watch that oil build up, might have to burn it out manually. Another
important thing is the air inlet on the burner. It should have a screw
or spring on the band , just adjust it a bit one way or the other untill
the flame is clean.

[325abn]

To test the transformer hold a screwdrive across the springs. You should be able to draw about a 3/4" arc.

So I just need to jump across the transformers contact springs with a screwdriver while the unit has power and is running and I should see a arc? Have you done this before?

[Fred Henderson]

Yes I have done it hundreds of times. Just be sure that you have a good plastic handle on the driver. If in doubt use a piece of electrical wire. The burner does not need to even be running. All that it needs is 110 volts to the transformer only.

[325abn]

Yes I have done it hundreds of times. Just be sure that you have a good plastic handle on the driver. If in doubt use a piece of electrical wire. The burner does not need to even be running. All that it needs is 110 volts to the transformer only.

Thanks Fred!! This is why this is such a great site!
I am on my way out to check the transformer.

Test the secondary voltage with a high voltage tester (see Figure 7-15). Attach thealligator clip of the tester to the transformer case. Turn on the power to the transformerand touch the high voltage terminal with the tester probe. The neon bulb on the testerwill glow. Turn the tester dial until the bulb goes out. Read the high voltage outputof the transformer by multiplying the dial setting by 100. Each high voltage termi-nal should deliver 5,000 volts. ]This can also be done by touching a well-insulatedscrewdriver blade to the two terminals and gradually increasing the gap betweenthe screwdriver and one of the terminals while still in contact with the other termi-nal. A good transformer can produce an active spark 3/4″ long. Be sure to use a dryscrewdriver that has a solid plastic handle (see Figure 7-16). Do not use a screwdriverthat has a shank that extends through the handle and sticks out of the end.8.[/b]

[802maple]

Yes I have also done this. You don't have to make contact with both of them, just get within a 1/8th inch or so. Preferrably it is best to not make contact. then keep seperating the distance slowly, if it doesn't make it to 3/4 of an inch it is very weak. A good transformer will go to a inch plus. Remember to use a insulated srewdriver because you are dealing with some serius voltage

[325abn]

Well I got fire sort-of.

I took the burner off changed the nozzel it was quite clogged. I inspected the electrodes and the gap. I cleaned the porcilin and they both look good no cracks etc.

The nozzel was very clogged and after seeing this I was sure this was the issue. So I put it all back together and was expecting it to take right off. Well that did not happen.

So have the unit running and I check to make sure the line is bled well and it is. I am hearing some "buzzing" and I just lift the transformer and that is the source of the buzzing. The buzzing is an arc from the transformer to the electrodes. Should this be happening??

As I am lowering the the tranformer the burner lights off and I have FIRE!! I had to unplug the burner because I had no h2o in the pan. Thinking I have solved the issue I put some water into the pan and plug the burner in.

Then I get the same buzzing and again I lift the transformer and this time I see the fuel light off back by the tranformer springs. So I let it go and it burns for a few minutes then goes out.

What would be causing the arc at the springs and not at the end of the electrods?

[Fred Henderson]

Arcing is caused by not having a good contact. Just like the screwdriver test. Unless you have a cracked electrode that you can not see the crack in it. Are the springs in good contact with the transformer?

[325abn]

This thing has kicked my *** this weekend and its still not working.

For some reason I lost my prime on the pump and now I cant get the thing to bleed good. I bet I bled off a gal of fuel yet I am still getting air! I have plenty of fuel in the tank and I get good flow from the vent on the filter What could cause this? :x :x

So at this point I had had-it and was ready to call it a day and go watch Football. So I emptied and pulled my pan again and it is clear that the electrodes are shorted out on the round fan looking thinggy that is at the end by the nozzel. How is this soposed to set up?

At this point I think I may just go ahead and pull the whole burner off my spare furnace and use that.

[Fred Henderson]

The round "thingy" is there to make the air swirl for complete and better combustion. It could be that in the move to your place the burner had a rough trip. I am sorry but I do not have all the answers. The bleeding has to be a loose connection some place. How else could the air get in there. If the seal is bad on the pump air could get in that way, but I doubt that it is. Do you have a filter at the tank? Does the fuel line come out the bottom of the tank/ side of filter?

[maple flats]

Do not short the springs but rather contact one and slowly bring it closes to the second to get a spark. Make sure you use a good insulated handle and good dry leather gloves. Try looking thru the inspection port when you turn it on, do you see an arc created from one electrode to the other? If yes, is the arc in the right proximity to the fuel spray? If yes to both of these you likely need a new nozzle. If no arc get transformer checked. If it tests good you might need new electrodes. What temp is the environment you are firing in? If too cold you might need to run a 2 line system, supply and return. If I remember correctly the pump will have a port to connect a return line. This is sometimes needed if the tank is too far away, too low in relation to the burner or if the fuel is too cold. I used to putter with oil burners but never got so I could do it without re-hashing and studying it for a while.

[Fred Henderson]

If you think that your fuel is jelling due to being cold it is cheaper to just add some Power Service diesel fuel conditioner than run a second line. A second line is only needed if the tank is lower that the burner. It might save some sleep time by just having a burner man check it out.

[brookledge]

Another thought is the draft if it is too much or too little. I'd agree with Fred call your oil burner technician. He can tune it up to perfection. With the season in front of you you want it running at the highest efficiency. Alittle increasae in the efficiency over the entire sugaring season will save you more than the cost of the oil burner technician.
Keith

[Fred Henderson]

A good burner man can get 80% efficenty out of a burner, however 79% isn't too bad. Sometimes out just need to take a time out, then another look and you might just have it.

[Sugarmaker]

Man you guys are all over this one. I fired with oils for many years and when they work they are great. When they don't you need oil burner 101 because as mentioned above it could be several things, or a combination of several things. I know that the electrodes should not be shorting out on the housing.
Good luck,
Chris

[Father & Son]

325,
That round fan looking thingy like they said just makes a turbulant air flow so the fuel mixes with the air.

If your electrodes are shorting out on that it may be from being too close to them. On the side of the gun housing right beside where you disconnect the fuel line is a screw that adjusts how far the electrodes slide in when they are in place. This is a very specific distance and probably varies a little from one manufacturer to another. Like others have suggested, a furnace technician could come in and have this set up in no time.

Jim

[Fred Henderson]

Man you guys are all over this one. I fired with oils for many years and when they work they are great. When they don't you need oil burner 101 because as mentioned above it could be several things, or a combination of several things. I know that the electrodes should not be shorting out on the housing.
Good luck,
Chris


I really think that the burner had some rough handling when it was moved. But hey we are just trying to help the guy.

[mapleman3]

325, I am a licensed Oil guy. everything the guys have told you is pretty much on target... maybe too much info for you at this point... you really should buddy up with an oil tech, offer some syrup ! one thing I did to get by any air/bleeding/jelling problems is I set my burner as a 2 pipe. that is a supply to the burner and a return back to the tank. plus it helps return some oil that has been warmed back to the tank as it runs.

you have to be extreamly careful when you lift up and down the transformer, if it's running you make and break the flame but the oil still is pumping!! POOF big puff back. also you really should get a new nozzle, an oil guy can help you determine what pattern ans spray angle you need for your combustion chamber setup... it's NOT the same as a furnace...

He will be able to tune it to get the most efficient flame ... it should keep the chamber clean. many guys make the mistake and give it too much air to make the flame look real crisp like a jet ... but thats not always how it should be.

get a pro for the first setup.. watch him closely.. take notes and you'll be able to change the filter/nozzle and fire it up yourself in no time...

Good Luck

[Fred Henderson]

Jim : That is some good information on burners. On your 2 pipe sysytem do they go into the top of the tank and how far off the bottom is the pickup line? Where did you put your filter, outside or at the burner? I would dare say that the nozzle would have to be 60drg on such a short unit. Also if it were hollow it would help with combustion.

[mapleman3]

My oil lines are both 3/8 inch the supply comes from the bottom of the tank where the filter is.. and it's outside the sugarhouse.. I have never had a problem with gelling. the return goes into the top of the tank at one of the top bungs...they have special plugs that go from 2" to 3/8" so an oil fitting (flared)will crew into it... the line just goes into there, I don't have it stick down into the tank. as far as the angle I don't remember, My burner is a carlin 301... more of a commercial... running 3gph. I can check on what my nozzle is. I do beleive it is a hollow... and good chance it is around 60deg.

[325abn]

Well after a week off and time to step back and "look" at the situation I have my rig up and running. It was a combanation of things that where not correct. I got a hard rolling boil in the flue pan it about 9 minutes but it is uneven with the hardest up front which makes since because that is where the bottom of the flues are closest to the brick/blanket so I am going to pull the pan and change some things.

After having these issues now I know the burner inside and out.

Here is a shot of the steam rolling out of the shed. I will be putting twoo 14 X 14 trailer vents into the roof to help get the steam out of the building.

Thanks for all the input.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/reagantrooper/Evaporator/Evaporator001.jpg

[Fred Henderson]

Good show. Did you find the problems yourself or did call in some outside help.

[royalmaple]

That is a pretty cute sap haulin buggy on the side of the photo :lol:

I am not sure if you can do this with that type of building, but see if you can unscrew a panel of the roof, then you can prop it up at the end and still leave the panel in its place just lifted up at the end and still under the ridge cap. That way you don't have to cut your roof and you're still out of the rain or snow, but you'll get good venting as well.

Worth a try before you cut the roofing.

[Russell Lampron]

Nice picture, you may need more than 2 vents when you get to realy making steam.

Russ

[325abn]

I found the issues myself with the advice from the HVAC guy at the Hospital I work at.

The main issue was the electrodes being dead shorted against the flame retention ring. Then the air inlets needed to be closed-up some and the oil tank was so full of crud it had everthing clogged up including the fuel pump screen.

I like the idea of unscrewing a panel I never even thought of doing that :oops: I am going to look into in tommorow.

[HanginAround]

LOL Royal, I was thinking the same thing... people talked lots about green or orange tractors... no one mentioned pink 8O :D At least he has a ROPS :D

Glad you got your burner straightened out 325, must feel great to see steam :)

[royalmaple]

When you install metal roofing you overlap one end, and underlap the other side. You will likely be able to unscrew the panel, and make the panel so that both sides of the loose panel are on top of the two adjacent panels still screwed down. That way you can raise and lower that loose panel. Then just make a 2x4 big enough to prop it up when boiling, and when you are done for the night take the 2x4 out and put a couple of screws in the end so it doesn't blow off.

If it snows or rains you're still in full production mode.

You can get fancy and play a tape of top gun soundtrack or something, when you open the missle silo's and let the steam rip. Just to get everyone in the spirit. :lol:

Highway to the danger zone.......

[oneoldsap]

Hey 325 if that filter gives you any more trouble take your oil out from the top and you dont need a filter just keep your pick up line a couple inches off the bottom. Sometimes fuel will jell in the filter when it wouldnt otherwise. you also might want to put a barometric damper in your smoke stack. They are not too pricey in the small sizes.

[325abn]

"At least he has a ROPS"

What is a ROPS? The cage tank?

Oneoldsap,
I do have a barameyric damper on the pipe you just cant see it in this pic. :D :D

[Russell Lampron]

ROP's is roll over protection, They are refering to the yellow cab on the pink buggy beside your shed. :lol:

Russ

[ibby458]

ROPS is Roll Over Protection System. The pink sap buggy off to the side looks like it has one.

I'd put a variable speed exhaust fan in the back wall instead of opening up the roof. That'll suck steam out no matter the weather conditions.