3000 ft. of main line.

[PACMAN]

Im going to be putting in a new wet dry system after sugaring season,and the total length of the vac and wet lines will be 3000 ft. The total taps on this system will be 6000 or maybe a little over. What I was wondering is, Do I need to start out with 1 1/2 for the vac line and then use 1 1/4 for the wet line for 1000 ft. Then can I drop down to 1 1/4 for the vac line and 1 in. for the wet line for 1000 ft. and for the last 1000 ft. use 1 in. for vac and 3/4 for the wet. any input would be helpful thanks

[unc23win]

If you are talking about that many taps and that much line I would suggest getting a book such as The New York State Maple Tubing and Vacuum System Notebook published by Cornell University found here under publicatios http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/ it will link to pay for it through the Cornell link. Another great book is the North American Maple Syrup Producers Manual sold by The Maple Guys and other dealers and Amazon there are 2 editions so get the newer one. You may also like The Sugarmakers Companion by Mike Farrell.

Although you would probably get a lot of suggestions I think it is better to have a guide since you are talking about next season you have lots of time to plan.

[spud]

Im going to be putting in a new wet dry system after sugaring season,and the total length of the vac and wet lines will be 3000 ft. The total taps on this system will be 6000 or maybe a little over. What I was wondering is, Do I need to start out with 1 1/2 for the vac line and then use 1 1/4 for the wet line for 1000 ft. Then can I drop down to 1 1/4 for the vac line and 1 in. for the wet line for 1000 ft. and for the last 1000 ft. use 1 in. for vac and 3/4 for the wet. any input would be helpful thanks

If you're running 3000 feet I would strongly suggest 1 1/2 wet/dry for the first 2000 feet and then 1 1/4 wet/dry after that. I personally would run 1 1/2 all the way because it really is not going to cost that much more. Vacuum transfer and high CFMs is what you want to the far section of your woods. This will give you max sap per tap. Try not to exceed 200 taps on any mainline.

Spud

[GeneralStark]

Great advice so far. One other thing to think about is how your system will be laid out. Slope is certainly a factor as well. If you map out the woods and determine where you have higher or lower density, you will have a better sense of pipe layout and sizing. For instance, if you have 4000 taps 3000ft out, you may want to run larger pipe the whole way, but if you have 4000 taps 1000ft out, you may not need to run as large a pipe. Boosters and manifolds can be used wisely as well to effectively distribute CFMs throughout the system. You can also break up the system into areas depending upon the acreage and shape of the lot(s). It all really depends upon your budget and how much you want to be able to produce.

This thread could give you some ideas:

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?24005-Insights-From-A-Pro-Tubing-Install/page3&highlight=insights

[BreezyHill]

The charts from Cornell will/should have a work sheet that is what you need to calculate out your tubing needs. You will need to know your tap counts over the distance of the installation to get an accurate design. If you have more taps to the distal end of the mains the calculation sheets will have you running the 1.5 for a longer distance than if your proximal part of the bush is more ladened with taps.

I plugged some numbers in to a spread sheet(ss), I made and I you will need to do some serious design of the system. Your distances of 1000' will transfer about 16 cfm on a 1.5" main but the charts list a dry line carry capacity for 1.5" at 1000' to be 1620. On a 2% grade your gallons per hour capacity is about 750 but the peak flow of 6000 taps will be in the 1200 gph area. While a 2" line will have gph of just under 1400 and a dry line capacity of 2880.

So now I am wondering if you meant 600 and not 6000 taps...the tap density to reach 6000 taps in 3000 feet is pretty high?

[tuckermtn]

I thought the same thing Breezy - I have a wet-dry system with approx 3000ft in length and it has about 400 taps on it...but of course I live in a county where 1% of the trees are sugar maples...

[Moser's Maple]

I think you guys are missing that he said the wet/dry is 3000ft. he could have main line laterals going another 1000 ft off wet dry every 75ft up the length of the wet/dry system.

now to you vacuum gurus.....would he want to have a booster or a couple boosters help maintain and stabilize the vacuum somewhere in the 3000ft of wet/dry??? just a question

[PACMAN]

Have the producers manual and my lats will be 1000 ft long and the slope is 5 to 10 degrees depending where you are. Im thinking on doing 3000 taps maybe cause Im thinking it will cost more than im going to have. That way I can make money to spend it LOL. What do you all think all input is welcome.

[BreezyHill]

I would rather see a manifold between the wet and dry lines to act as a balance tank if made of 3" pvc. Inexpensive, functional and separates sap from gases while equalizing the flow to the wet line. It will equalize the vacuum if there are surges from the lateral connected to it; but if the system is designed and sloped well then there really should not be surges; but in the real world there are surges and if a manifold can spread out a surge to equal flow then we will get more vac to the furthest tap.

The reason for the 3" is to act as a reservoir for vacuum and to allow sap to fill the wet line to capacity by filling ebbs in the flow during peak flow. A 12" section of 3" will hold the same as 108' of 1" tubing. By filling the manifold prior to allowing any sap into the dry line you will maximize cfm transfer in the dry line system by maximizing the capacity of the wet line. If a producer can tap and thread ports on the sidewall of the 3" this will work best for lateral connection but thru a tee at the top will also work...just not as well.

[spud]

[QUOTE=Moser's Maple;263465]I think you guys are missing that he said the wet/dry is 3000ft. he could have main line laterals going another 1000 ft off wet dry every 75ft up the length of the wet/dry system.

now to you vacuum gurus.....would he want to have a booster or a couple boosters help maintain and stabilize the vacuum somewhere in the 3000ft of wet/dry??? just a question.

I am assuming he is running a 3000 foot wet/dry system with a total of 6000 taps. Jake I think we were thinking alike on this. In a span that long there could be 30+ mainlines on both sides of the wet/dry lines. If this is the case running 1 1/2 wet/dry might not be enough. If I had 6000 taps all coming in on one 3000 foot line I might want to run another 1 1/2 dry line just for better vacuum transfer. In my main woods of 6000 taps I have two wet/dry systems leaving the sugar house. Each system is around 2000 feet long. There are booster tanks every 1000 feet for a total of 4 boosters on two systems. Both systems are 1 1/2 inch wet/dry. I then installed a back-up wet line that is 1 1/4. By doing this it increased my production per tap and increased my CFMs to the far sections of the woods. Vacuum and CFM transfer are everything for top production. Spending a little more on 1 1/2 inch pipe will be well worth it in the end.

Spud

[BreezyHill]

Well I admire your for thought as this will be a costly expansion.

Well the slope is a plus, 5 degrees is about 10% slope and boosts your flow of the wet line of 1.5" to 1776 gph and peak on 3000 taps will be 600 gph...but if you are going to expand in the future then you will not want to have smaller than 1.5" due to the flow you will have down the road and the need for even more cfms.

Spud is spot on...cfms to the taps are the key to good production.

1000' laterals I would definitely put in a 3" manifold to maximize cfm and sap flow. On the proximal lines to the sugar house is where you will get the best sap flow results and at the distal laterals will be the best results for cfm transfer for any surges. This is primarily due to lineal vacuum flow as distance increase.

The other factor is the turbulence of sap flow on your higher slopes...10 degrees is a little over 17% slope. This will create issues and on a whip will force sap to the dry line and create surges in the wet line. Whips are great on limited slopes for separating sap and gases but I have had to remove mine on the steeper slope spot.

Remember if the dry line is carrying sap during peak flow you will have a negative impact on production due to the lack of cfm transferal.

This can mostly be derived from the Cornell Charts and the rest is from personal experience and prior training in vacuum theory and science.

Let me know if you need further assistance.

Ben

[PACMAN]

Ben, the main line will be at 5 degree slope. the lats are the ones that will be steaper in spots. I am going to use boosters, but I thought one would have to put them in on every lat. that would be put in. I was going to put a lat every 150 ft. with a vac. gauge on each booster to to find leeks.Do you have to put boosters or manifolds on every lat?

[unc23win]

Use booster/manifolds to connect your wet and dry line to your main lines. Valves and gauges on each will help you isolate leaks. This type of system works great and leaks can be found very fast.

[BreezyHill]

Ben, the main line will be at 5 degree slope. the lats are the ones that will be steaper in spots. I am going to use boosters, but I thought one would have to put them in on every lat. that would be put in. I was going to put a lat every 150 ft. with a vac. gauge on each booster to to find leeks.Do you have to put boosters or manifolds on every lat?

For best production yes, a manifold at each connection will pay dividends as will a gauge on each lateral after a ball valve. Close the ball valve and if the gauge drops quickly there is a leak. Slow and you don't have a large leak.

The issue with not putting a booster on each is you will have turbulence from the lat into the line. The turbulence will dramatically impact gpm flow rates. Since the next connection between the wet and dry would be at the next lat you would only have an issue after the point where the sap is getting into the dry line.

But since this will be more of a problem the closer you get to the sugar house; the more area of the bush you will be reducing the vac flow to by taking space in the dry line with sap.

We can do all the planning and all the calculations but if we are figuring the dry line for 2700 taps capacity at 1000 feet on 1.5", but we loose 20% capacity due to sap in it for 150' our taps at the far end will suffer a lack of desired vacuum since we are only able to supply enough vac for 2100 taps.

Sorry but I taught 4-h Horse bowl for 20 years...I cant just give an answer. I had to teach how the answer is arrived...did this with my sons and seems to have worked well.

So some quick math...if you could get an increase of only 1" of vac on half of the taps in the project you would be looking a 6% more sap every season. So 6% of .4 gallons per tap of syrup would be 36 gallons of syrup per year. And if you sold this for $25/ G = $900 increase in revenue per year so over the 20 year life time of the manifold you would have an extra $18,000. I think they are a great investment...especially when you think that the issue will be mostly at the point closest to the sugar house which will affect even more taps.

There will be a point in the system that you could use a 2" manifold; to save some $$$ on materials, but you wont have the capacity in the manifold to hold vac and/or sap storage for times of surges so are you saving $$$ in the check book and leaving $$$ of sap in the trees ??? I would say yes but you could always add them later.

I is easier thou to build it once and go as far with the project as the check book will allow. Been there... done that! I hate having the bank as a partner! Worse if having to answer to my accountant...we have been married 21 years now. LOL

[Moser's Maple]

I hate to say this because I'm a do it yourself kind of guy, but if were me I would seriously look into hiring a professional tubing installer on this. if even it's only for the mains. these guys have been doing this for a living and I think would listen to your ideas, have a plan of their own, and a happy medium could be reached. I hear great things about Jason Grossman, and Mike Bennett to name a couple off the top of my head

[PACMAN]

I have met Mike Bennett Nice guy and he does know his stuff. I think your right about getting Someone to at least look at it.