Help setting up gravity line, 50 taps at top of hill.

[Sandersyrup]

I have 50+ taps at the top of a 130' hill about 1,000 ft away from my tank. The bulk of the altitude drop happens mid way between the hill and my tank.

I would like to get a natural vacuum effect but would like to invest in the longest lasting most affordable setup.

I'm thinking about doing 5/16 drops to 5/16 laterals to 3/16 mainline to the tank.

I'm open to better ideas though.

Also my biggest issue is where exactly to buy 3/16 line? I surfed McMaster but could not identify the exact line i would need.

Sugaring season begins in 1 month for my area, need to get organized now.

[unc23win]

Dominion and Grimm and CDL both have 3/16 line and fittings. Online Bascoms has a 3/16 section now they sell CDL. Wallings Maple on here is a D&G dealer and he is using some himself.

[maple flats]

Buy the tubing and fittings from a CDL dealer. McMaster Carr will not have the right stuff. CDL supplies all you will need. I think you will be better off going all 3/16 from tap to the bottom of the drop. At that point it might be better to connect it to 5/16 so line friction on the lower flatter section does not hamper the nat. vacuum that can be generated in the steep part. I don't think you should tie more than 1 at 3/16 to a 5/16, CDL has the connectors too. Just go to CDL-USA and search for a dealer near you, or order online and have it shipped.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

If I am understanding your post correct, you are saying the greatest elevation change is halfway to your tank? if that is the case, I would run the 3/16" all the way from taps to tank. In other words, use 3/16" tubing for the whole installation. D&G and CDL both carry the tubing and fittings, so if you have a dealer for one of these companies in your area that stocks the accessories, that is your best bet. It will save you on shipping, which can get expensive if you are shipping rolls of tubing.
Neil

[Sandersyrup]

I just got my 3/16 setup ordered!

Ok so now I'm confused about how to set it up. I just ready that laterals can compete with each other and I want to avoid this. All 12 of my trees are about 20-30 feet apart In an orchard grid 3 rows of 4 trees. My plan was to run a 3/16 mainline down the middle of this bush and to the tank. Laterals would connect to the main. However reading that laterals can compete I'm concerned I would need to more carefully consider how and where they connect to the main. How do I prevent laterals from competing? Would it be better to have the main on the side of the bush and run all the laterals from one side? Or would it be better to just zig zag the main line to all the trees and skip laterals altogether.
Additionally the mainline needs to travel across an open field down the hill for about 700' , is it ok to let it sit on the ground or do I need to stake it in and elevate it? Entire setup will be removed each season due to cattle needing the field.


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[psparr]

If by mainline you mean 3/16 tubing, it is better to zig-zag and catch each tree with a drop. If you can zig and maintain a pretty even slope thats even better. Just remember the drop at the end of the run.

[DrTimPerkins]

My plan was to run a 3/16 mainline down the middle of this bush and to the tank. Laterals would connect to the main.

To make it a bit easier to discuss, let's get the terminology right. What you are (should be) using is 5/16" spouts with 3/16" tubing connectors. Each of these spouts connects to a 3/16" dropline that is about 30" long. Those droplines connect to 3/16" lateral lines with a tee connector. The lateral lines run from tree to tree and then down the hill to the tank, zig-sagging to pick up the trees as they go (just don't zig-zag back UP the hill, always down). Do NOT put y-fittings into the system, to split the tubing into branches as these tend to not work as well. You have NO actual mainline in this system (what you are calling "mainline" is actually the lateral line). I agree with all the previous responders in that you should use CDL or D&G maple equipment and NOT materials you'd get from McMaster or another supply company.

It will take some fiddling to ensure that your system is very tight (leak-free), and the system will only develop good natural vacuum if it is tight. Put a gauge at the top (and maybe half-way down) to be able to observe the vacuum level.

[Goggleeye]

Do NOT put y-fittings into the system, to split the tubing into branches as these tend to not work as well.
What is the reason they don't work as well? I have little choice due to topography (5%slope) to not use Y's, and they don't seem to cause me any trouble, but I don't really have much to compare. Is there a better option for systems that have to branch? Most of our runs are only 10-35 trees, as we don't have long enough hill slopes.

[Sandersyrup]

Thanks for the education Tim! I completely assumed the long line to the tank is called the mainline. I really don't have any way to learn this stuff accept through these forums, Its truly amazing how small or large, everyone can ask questions here and get educated. So thankful for the time everyone gives us.


What is the reason they don't work as well? I have little choice due to topography (5%slope) to not use Y's,..... Is there a better option for systems that have to branch?

This is also a question of mine. My trees are all in the same area with little slope between trees at the top of a hill overlooking the large downhill to the tank. I assumed using y connectors would be the only way to keep all the lines running downhill.

[DrTimPerkins]

I completely assumed the long line to the tank is called the mainline.

I assumed using y connectors would be the only way to keep all the lines running downhill.

In your case there is no true "mainline", just very long lateral lines. The lateral line should just zig-zag from tree to tree while generally heading downhill. Go around the tree to keep the lines from sagging and to keep tension on them. You can use other (non-crop) trees to zig-zag around as well to maintain tension. Just keep TSD in mind....tight, straight (as much as possible) and downhill.

If you use a Y-fitting to connect lateral lines in a branching layout, the sap from one branch will tend to restrict the flow of sap from the other branch. The end result is that you will end up with lower yields than if you keep them separated. See the attached diagram. In the first (left-most) example, the two lateral line ends should NOT y together at the end, but should instead both run into the tank separately.

Ideal situation if most of your trees are at the top and then a nice drop off to the bottom. Good luck.

10489

[GeneralStark]

That's a helpful diagram, though it does not show the lateral actually going around the tree, which it should. Just a minor clarification...

[TerryEspo]

I love that diagram, Thanks.
It may appear as basic to many here but I admit I failed miserably last year with my little short runs. I think I had all NO,s with my lines last season.
I am having an AH-HUH moment as I keep looking at the diagram, sheesh.
It doesn't help I have never seen in person a sugar bush except mine.

Once again a picture is worth a thousand words.

Thanks.

Terry

[OrangeAgain]

I would love to visit a 3/16" tubing installation ideally either in Vermont's Chittenden County or Vermont's Northeast Kingdom. I expect others would like to visit such installations in their area. Can a list of 3/16" sugar bush sites be compiled?

[DrTimPerkins]

That's a helpful diagram, though it does not show the lateral actually going around the tree, which it should. Just a minor clarification...

Yes, you are correct. I only had a few minutes to respond, and thus the diagram isn't 100% correct in that sense. The laterals SHOULD go around each tree (not completely around, but partially around them) rather than simply up to them in order to help maintain tension on the lines. The leftmost line in the diagram is depicted the proper way.

[wishlist]

In your case there is no true "mainline", just very long lateral lines. The lateral line should just zig-zag from tree to tree while generally heading downhill. Go around the tree to keep the lines from sagging and to keep tension on them. You can use other (non-crop) trees to zig-zag around as well to maintain tension. Just keep TSD in mind....tight, straight (as much as possible) and downhill.

If you use a Y-fitting to connect lateral lines in a branching layout, the sap from one branch will tend to restrict the flow of sap from the other branch. The end result is that you will end up with lower yields than if you keep them separated. See the attached diagram. In the first (left-most) example, the two lateral line ends should NOT y together at the end, but should instead both run into the tank separately.

Ideal situation if most of your trees are at the top and then a nice drop off to the bottom. Good luck.

10489

I tried the " no" part of Dr Tim's diagram last year on some yard trees. Big mistake. You could see sap moving on one branch of the tee but nothing happening on the other branch. Won't do that again !

This year I'm either splitting up 5/16" lines and running them seperate or running 3/4" wireless mainline with lats branching off like a normal installation.

[sugarsand]

Something I'm not understanding is, a branch line is basically a drop asumming it has a single tap. Is the length of the drop or branch line causing poorer flow? When setting up new 3/16 lines this Summer, saved tubing by bringing trees that were uphill down to the line. I wont change it now before this season but would like to know if I messed up doing it this way.

sugarsand

[RiverSap]

Great information Tim. I am in Missouri and in my third year. I experimented with tubing last year and have most of my 35 trees on 5/16" tubing this year. I do not have a mainline. Everything is the 5/16" tubing. When I put it up I did not really know much other then what I learned last year and what I learned on here. I wish I had seen your diagram and explanation before I put it up. The only real mistake I made is I tied several laterals together. I may be able to fix a few of them but I used up all of the tubing I had and I am not going to make any more purchases this year. I have a few pictures of my setup in my gallery album section. Thank you for the info and the diagram. Very helpful.

[DrTimPerkins]

Something I'm not understanding is, a branch line is basically a drop asumming it has a single tap. Is the length of the drop or branch line causing poorer flow? When setting up new 3/16 lines this Summer, saved tubing by bringing trees that were uphill down to the line. I wont change it now before this season but would like to know if I messed up doing it this way.

I won't say that you messed up, but it is not the most efficient installation.

Think of it this way....you're trying to merge on an Interstate and you've got a short on-ramp. Sometimes the merge will go fine, at other times the flow is so fast that the merging traffic slows down or stops. Sap in lines installed on a Y seem to work the same way. Typically one side will run well and the other won't, so you'll end up with lower yields. The line with the most sap or the most direct path usually wins. Now this isn't quite the same situation in a mainline system. In that case you typically have air on top of the pipe and sap on the other, or you have a wet line and a dry line and they are totally separated. In a mainline the liquid usually runs in a laminar fashion (although there can be turbulence at junctions and in steep sections). In lateral lines the flow is called "slug-flow", which is a fairly inefficient way to move because you have a mixture of liquid and air bubbles which go across the entire pipe diameter. Air is compressible, liquid is not. Air wants to move quickly, sap less so. The result is that neither move at optimal rates. Putting a Y into the system just compounds the problem.

A T fitting on a drop is similar, but because the sap is coming almost straight down, we have the added advantage of a slight pressure head to push the sap out into the stream of sap coming down the lateral line. Even so, when you watch the flow, the movement of sap (and gas) out of the T is often not constant, but sometimes will flow, then stop, then flow, as the pressure builds up, then is relieved by some flow. The bulk of the sap coming down the lateral will flow, but when the pressure builds up (due to head or pressure from the tree), then the sap in the T overcomes this resistance and moves out into the lateral line.

[TRAILGUY]

changed my last year when the light came on some of us take a while.

[sugarsand]

Dr Tim, bear with me, I'm getting older and thick headed at times. Are you saying that the difference is the drop line coming in the top works better than in the side in regard to sap merge? Would a branch line dropping in the top the same as drop line does, work the same way?

Tim
sugarsand

[DrTimPerkins]

Are you saying that the difference is the drop line coming in the top works better than in the side in regard to sap merge? Would a branch line dropping in the top the same as drop line does, work the same way?

There has not been much research into the whys of why the Y in lateral lines don't work well (hopefully you can follow that :)), but it has been observed in both 3/16" and 5/16" systems that the yields are lower. A great deal of industry practice also seems to show that it just doesn't work terribly well. Every now and then somebody crops up who says it can be made to work if you do it some special quasi-magical way.

You could certainly try dropping one side of the branch line into the other side from the top like the way a drop line works if you like, but at that point you are experimenting, and I can't tell you whether it'll work or not. It is probably better to just go with what actually does work, which is to not use Ys in 3/16" or 5/16" lateral lines.

[psparr]

Why Y Why?:lol:

[Tornado]

Do the Y's have the same problems if you use them to connect two drop lines together and then T them into the lateral line? The only time we use them is with a large tree with two taps, we come from the taps to a Y and then into a T at the lateral line.

Our set-up is similar to the OP's in that we do not use a true main line. We have about 125 taps on about 8 lines with between 10 and 20 taps on each line. Another question I had was, should the drop lines all be the same length, or does it matter in this kind of (or any) set-up.

Sorry for kind of highjacking your thread, but I think the answers would benefit the OP as well.

[SeanD]

Do the Y's have the same problems if you use them to connect two drop lines together and then T them into the lateral line? The only time we use them is with a large tree with two taps, we come from the taps to a Y and then into a T at the lateral line.

Our set-up is similar to the OP's in that we do not use a true main line. We have about 125 taps on about 8 lines with between 10 and 20 taps on each line. Another question I had was, should the drop lines all be the same length, or does it matter in this kind of (or any) set-up.

Sorry for kind of highjacking your thread, but I think the answers would benefit the OP as well.

Those questions will benefit a lot of people, myself included. I think most of us started out with tubing with some rolls of 5/16" and a bunch of fittings. This has been a great thread - especially those pics Dr. Tim posted.

I'm going to add a couple more questions:

Dr. Tim, are there other diagrams like that for other situations or did you make that one yourself?

I have two new bushes I'm setting up this year and they are both relatively long and narrow about 60' wide and 275' long with a few areas where it widens out if I grab some big trees in the open off to the side. I'll get 30-40 taps on each one. I can get most of the taps on each line in a single zig-zag like the YES diagram, but is that too long and too many taps for a 5/16" lateral?

In existing set-ups that have Ts and Ys branching 5/16" laterals to the central 5/16" lateral, does it make sense to vent the central lateral at the end to reduce conflicts at the Ys? You would lose vacuum on the central line, but would that loss be made up for by by the improved flow at the Ys?

Sean

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Do not vent!

[Sandersyrup]

One more quick question. I have to run about 1000' of tubing down the hill across an open meadow with no trees. Do I lay the line on the ground and pull it tight Or would it be better to suspend I off the ground a bit?


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[DrTimPerkins]

One more quick question. I have to run about 1000' of tubing down the hill across an open meadow with no trees. Do I lay the line on the ground and pull it tight Or would it be better to suspend I off the ground a bit?

Off the ground (the sap won't run if the tubing is under the snow and frozen), with a slight downhill grade all the way. Suspend on posts with no sagging in between (pull it tight). If you have several 5/16" or 3/16" lines that have to go across the meadow, you'd be better off using 1/2" or 3/4" mainline for that section, also off the ground....best suspended off wire.

[DrTimPerkins]

I would love to visit a 3/16" tubing installation ideally either in Vermont's Chittenden County or Vermont's Northeast Kingdom. I expect others would like to visit such installations in their area. Can a list of 3/16" sugar bush sites be compiled?

You could call Tim Wilmot, UVM Maple Extension, at 802-899-9926. He could probably let you know of an installation near you, or schedule a time for you to visit the UVM Proctor Maple Research Center (although once we hit the sugaring season such a visit becomes terribly difficult as we're all too busy).

[daverobitaille]

I have email Tim myself with a few questions on 3/16 gravity tubing. He responded on the weekend and was very helpful!

Dave

[Sandersyrup]

I finally set up my system. Yesterday during a very weepy run I was getting 13" vac which I'm not sure is good or not. It was working I guess so that's good. I really want to see high vac though. Do you think the length of my system could be a Hangup? My elevation drop at the top of the hill is only about 15' after 700' of line then it all runs downhill for about 800' with 200' of drop. Is friction an issue? Any tip on tightening up a 3/16 setup and spotting issues?


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