another hangup with my releaser, pump wont do it under vacuum

[cjf12]

I just got everything plumbed and ready to test (hi lo switch's ordered). l started vacuum pump and filled releaser and turned on the sap pump to dump the releaser and I can not get it to dump under vacuum. No vacuum it is pumping 5 gal in about 8 sec. At 5 Hg it moves the water but barely. I expected it to struggle at 28" but figured at 15" it would be fine since that is what it is designed for.
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I hope the pictures are there. If so here is what's what. Red hose is main line, clear hose is vacuum line to releaser, blue canister is moisture trap, blue motor is SS dairy pump, on the top of dairy pump is a check valve, and small flexible line is a vacuum balancer to aid in pumping under vacuum. (Not working so well) I had all running off a 5000 watt generator as that is what will be out in the bush. Any help is much appreciated, I have dumped all my "maple fund" into this and a flop is a bit of a discouragement. Thought I was on the right track.

[wiam]

Looks plumbed right. I can't think of anything than a worn pump.

[Moser's Maple]

i wonder if it could be air binding under vacuum?

[cjf12]

Air binding as in no water at the pump and just spinning air? I believe the small tube should draw water into the pump as well equalize the vacuum. Come to think of it though, the pump was slightly uphill the way the trailer was sitting. Still, to have no flow at 10"?

How do you determine your pump is worn?

[WMF]

The dairy pump is the problem, it is just a plain centrifugal pump which if the impeller is designed right and the pump clearances are right could pump out at 15" but obviously this one will not. If the pump is leaking any air into it its game over.

Double check that the motor is wired for the correct pump rotation as the pump will still pump marginally even if spinning backwards. Take the pump head apart and check for debris or damaged impeller.

A true jet pump with a built in or external ejector is what you want and will pump out at 26" . The Grundfos JPS-4 has built in ejector and is what used to be used on releasers before sub pumps became popular.

[maple flats]

Just connect a small vac. line from the pump outlet to the vacuum line on your system. The pump won't fight vacuum, but adding the small vacuum line at the pump outlet will make it so the pump is in the vacuum environment. Then it will pump. The vac. line can be as small as a 5/16", maybe even a 1/4".

[mellondome]

You are getting air into the pump. The shaft seal going into the housing is probably the culprit. The pump ...if it is in the vacuum, will easilly overcome 15" as long as there is no air in it. From experience in the farming world, if that shaft seal leaks any air you will not pump with vacuum on.
Looking at your setup, you could have other micro leaks on the pump side that will have the same result.

[BreezyHill]

blue motor is SS dairy pump, on the top of dairy pump is a check valve, Thought I was on the right track.

Very Close! You have the dairy pump's discharge in a 12 Oclock position. Turn it to discharge out the side and be certain that the check is a swing check with no spring, The Vac line to after the pump can actual hinder the process. If there is air leaking into the pump head you want it to flow to the releaser. If it is stuck from being pulled from both directions then you can end up with an air lock.

My unit dumps just fine at 29+ with a delaval pump on a delaval jar. The impeller would not throw the sap straight up but it would do it after a short swing 90 degree elbow out of the pump. My check is next to the pump. This is they design used to get most transfer from the pump and limit space of vacuum after the pump.

Release the union on the feed pipe and spin the outlet 90 degrees and give it a try before you take apart the rest of the system. If it works then have at it. Otherwise you will have to do alittle replumbing.

Ben

[lpakiz]

Is there a chance that the seal is allowing the vacuum "balance" line to constantly PULL liquid from the pump head, replacing it with air drawn past the seal? The seal is meant to hold PRESSURE when the pump is pumping. Perhaps under vacuum, the seal is allowing air into the pump head. Can you see or hear any air or bubbles heading back towards the releaser chamber?

[cjf12]

Took off my check valve since it's spring loaded, now to find a swing gate valve, local hardware doesn't keep them that size. Are they that much easier to release?

Breezy, The pump orientation makes that big of a difference? Does it matter if it's at 3 or 9? Also, you don't use the small vacuum line to balance it out? Would you do away with it altogether?

I vacuumed everything before I put water to it and didn't notice any leaks. Initially there was one where the small line connected above the pump but was easily fixed, I think.

[BreezyHill]

The spring check vs a swing check is like trying to take a picture of a drip of sap in the dark vs on a sunny day...without a flash on the camera.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/American-Granby-Lot-Of-6-2-Spg-X-Spg-PVC-Swing-Check-Valve-/321611468416?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ae1898e80

here is one on ebay or I can ship you one from CDL.

I don't have any lines from the releaser to the pump or the outlet side....never needed one

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if you need a better pic uf the pump I will need to take one for you. Just let me know.

[BreezyHill]

I had a spring valve on a sap ladder and I was able to reach in and pull it out with a set of long pliers...that will work too.

Ideally you want the outlet port to be on the bottom so that as much of the sap will leave the unit and it is the point of least resistance when on the bottom. At 9:00 it will still be on top of the pump head, rather than on the bottom.

[Big John]

dairy milk pumps are made for max 15-18" the seal in the pump will start leaking in a very short time at higher hg. Exterior pumps are very problematic one small leak and it will never pump out. a deep well or effluent pump inside the releaser is the best way to pump out of high vacuum. we have to rebuild our dairy milk pump at least once a year if not twice. it never sees more than 15 during washing. we have built many different configurations with pumps inside. put them in dumpers. put three in one releaser. long distance pumping 1500'.
good luck

[BreezyHill]

dairy milk pumps are made for max 15-18" the seal in the pump will start leaking in a very short time at higher hg. Exterior pumps are very problematic one small leak and it will never pump out.

That seems odd to me. Not once have I rebuilt this pump and it sat for 22 years before I recycled it. Remember that if you are talking about a dairy pump in a dairy situation you are comparing watermellons and grapes. Milk pumps need rebuilding for the many times that they suck up sawdust or sand bedding. One of my customers with sand bedding rebuilds the impeller every 4 months as the sand eats the pump up. The new plastic impellers are not like the old SS impellers that take a beating for years.

Sap on the other hand is relatively clean of all debris after any chips are flushed thru...use a good tapping bit and you have even fewer bits of wood.

Remember that even on a farm running 18" the glass has to be able to with stand even more for a safety window. Our unit spent all of last season at 28+" and the pump still dumps a full jar in under 7 seconds. There is occasionally a leak from the check valve rubber after the pump but air is much lighter than sap and is pulled directly into the releaser and to the pump. Never had the pump cavitate.

Not that long ago people were mislead that dairy pumps could only pull 15"...that was wrong then too.

I cant use a submersible pump due to the simple fact that if I am not there and ice enters my system now. Everything will be just fine. The jar is PYREX, it can take heat while it is cold. In a submersible system if the unit freezes up you have a large block to thaw and risk the degradation of the pump. in a dairy pump they have gasket rings that will give and not harm the pump head. Mine has frozen while I was away and it was fine in about 15 minutes. I just suck in a 5 gallon bucket of warm water and the unit is thawed quickly. These pumps also move slush very well. I will have to search those pics down in the hard drive if they are needed.

We have used a dairy releaser since we moved into the current sugar house in 1976. The system in the photo is the new system that started last season. Never had a problem with leaks or pump rebuilds yet. Now that I said that I better order a set of gaskets and check that impeller. LOL

[cjf12]

Even if I do have to replace the seals once every so often, this is what I have so it's what I want to try to make work. I have to start somewhere. So far I have been able to do all this including the vac. pump for less than $350. Probably less just haven't sat down to count receipts yet. I will order those check valves and give that a shot and go from there. Thanks for all the input.

[BreezyHill]

this is what I have so it's what I want to try to make work. I have to start somewhere. Thanks for all the input.

It is Great to see Good, "Old Fashioned Vales" have not been totally wiped from the fabric of life.

What has happened to teaching our youth this very point in life?

I think back to how many times I heard this very statement from relatives of my family from my younger years and think of what my three sons ate hearing now.

One of them told me he was shocked that a person told him that he should got to what ever college he wanted because he can just barrow the money to pay for it. So he and I went over how much it would cost to go to the school they were recommending. $70k per year for 4 years...that is a staggering $280,000 dollars of debt for a 21 year old to have hanging around your neck and then you have to get a job. The interest alone on that amount is $700. The best part is that school doesn't even offer the classes and sub majors that he desires.

cjf12...Thank You for giving me a thread that he can read to see that not everyone in this world today is driven by the: get it now and pay for it later mentality.

I rest assured that many of my friends have helped him see this sentiment, but to read it is so much more powerful.

Ben

[Big John]

Nobody milks cows with 18" it is just for washing. We had this setup for a couple years for sap. It works yes but not well. Why would you want to freeze it? You should put it in a insulated unit of some sort. Freezing any pump is a bad idea. A bottom suck pump at webs is less than $400. And I am wondering how are you going to clean that releaser? I would guess that if you are going to freeze it that your pvc will break. We have built many electric releaser I know what works day in day out no messing around so you can fix your leaks and maximize your production. Trying to be cheap when going to this type of setup is a mess later. The whole reason for electric releaser is because you are pumping out a long ways. Or you have over 25 hg. Other than that just stick with a manual.

[mellondome]

There are more reasons than that for electric. No vac loss to releases. No big tank opening requirement, height limitations, cost of cheap dairy style setups.(especially if they are free) . If you have electricity on site, why would you use a mechanical releaser?

[wiam]

If you have electricity on site, why would you use a mechanical releaser?

In my opinion this says it all. If my woods was not 1600' from power I would not have a mechanical.

[Big John]

I agree with you. I have not used a dumper in 10 years. We do this to make money. I know a dairy pump cannot take 27-28 hg. And that is what I strive for. that is how you get a lot of sap.

[cjf12]

Were not striving for the money, but even if I pull 15" won't I still get more sap than buckets? More sap means more money, which in turn will lead to better equipment next year and so on.

[unc23win]

Were not striving for the money, but even if I pull 15" won't I still get more sap than buckets? More sap means more money, which in turn will lead to better equipment next year and so on.

Exactly there is nothing wrong with going with what you already have to work with and yes 15" will be well worth it if you can make everything work. You originally posted asking for help making your set up work and I hope you get the help you need. Good luck!

[BreezyHill]

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Since a picture is worth a thousand words.

Remember it was only 300 years ago the world was thought to be flat.

This is from a dairy pump. Delaval 73. Those that say it cant be done, just did try hard enough.

From the pic of the releaser one can see a bubble trail from one of the times that the flapper valve did not seat 100%. The pump still dumped just fine and on time to the cycle that is adjustable on my unit.

Farms that have a VFD on their Vac pump can utilize that science to wash at higher vac levels. Those without only have mechanical vac controllers and do not have time to change the unit 4 times a day...from low to higher and back down after every milking. So that is 6 times on a 3x milking farm.

While one person may not be able to get a unit to function as desired it is not accurate to say that all can not. I spent several days to get a milk probe to function in sap...it works just fine now; but it took a lot of coffee, calculating, and building attempts to fine the answer.

This unit is designed to facilitate visual flow from different lines and a wet dry system, thru a 2" receiver jar. 1.5" Pyrex Dairy tees are used to connect various mainlines from the bush to the system. There is one drop tee to demonstrate how a ladder works, to demonstrate how air injection functions, and to demonstrate the affects of a dip in a mainline. This unit is a high volume system able to handle in the area of 18,000 at peak flow based on pumping restriction. Our farm will not carry that many taps nor is this level obtainable if utilizing all the taps on neighboring properties.

Last season we were in the deep freeze the week before the trees started to flow. This lead to an abysmal season. The previous season we averaged .47 gallons of syrup per tap, from taps on the ladder system and on the positively sloped parts of the bush. I was not informed that ladders would not work well for maximum production levels when we started retubing our bush in 2012; but since they worked well for my dad who was a Surge Dairy Equipment Dealer and installed them in our bush in the 1970's I simply expanded the number of ladders to bring trees that were now large enough to tap, into the sugar house.

The science supports the theory then it is up to a person to apply the science here in the real world.

While I only have less the an $500 is this system, including a main vac pump and a stand by unit. I would never pass judgment on a person that has to spend $20,000 or more for a system to equal it. Simply I just thank my father for teaching me how to be self sufficient and industrious.

I am in this for two things...Profit and Education of youth and fellow tappers. Last year we started the first 4-H Maple Club in NYS. Out of that there was handful of kids that are tapping trees last season for the first time and a few more that want to do it this season.

Working with what you have is the best way to discover your potential, to learn, and to not go into debt.

15" will produce 151% more than gravity as established by Cornell's Steve Childs and Dr Tim of UVM has established that an increase of 5-7% increase for every inch of vacuum above 15".

unc23win has a great point...nothing wrong at all.

While many would say what I am doing is wrong...my response is simple. Money spent on expensive equipment is an investment in the facility; while profit is revenue over and above expenses. My system should last my life time. If I live to be as old as my dad then I have another 30 years...the system will have cost less than $2 per year, making my profit margin a bunch better than if I had invested $1000 per year.

Don't get me wrong we are planning to buy a new evaporator within two seasons for around $25,000. State of the art CDL unit designed on maximum efficiency. How ever if our marketing program keeps growing as it has so far it will be an expense that will keep the IRS out of the farms check book.

Which is another great point, Don't fault a person that invests in infrastructure on the recommendations of the accountant. What is yours, needs to be protect.

cjf12...Keep up the good work and remember living the dream is only half of it...sharing the dream is the second half.

[cjf12]

Tried swing check valve tonight with no vacuum balancer. No flow till I dropped to about 8" and little at that. Need a reducer to put balancer back in and I'll try that next maybe tomorrow. After that rebuild pump and then:confused:

[mellondome]

Sounds like airlock.

[BreezyHill]

Air lock is possible but more likely a vac lock of the air in the top portion of the pump provided the outlet was not repositioned to the bottom.

Likely when the vac level got down to a point that the pump could over come the massive gravitational pull of the sap down in the pump.

Vacuum is a powerful force. It magnifies other forces to massive levels.

[mellondome]

In our milk setup, the outlet is on top with 3 ft of pipe above it. Only time we have a problem pumping 0ut at 15" vac is if there is air actively getting into the pump head.

Our check valve flap is directly on the output port. Tri-clover gasket with center that closes the pump port off. If your check valve is too far from the pump, you will have problems without a line back to the release to eliminate the air.

[cjf12]

I'm beginning to think I may have some wiring issues with it. 2 Wire 220V for the pump but 3 wire plug on generator. From what I can tell the generator plug has ground at top (locking slot) and hot leads on sides with bottom being neutral. If that's is not the case I maybe trying to run pump at half speed. Anyone know if this is how all gen. are wired. Its a Honda 5000 watt.