Surge RV Pump

[jrmaple]

Hi all, I have this Surge RV vacuum pump, no motor, but have the balance rank and actual pump, I don't know much about it and was wondering if anybody else uses or used one of these and knows anything about them? I'd like to know what size GAS motor to get for it and also does this pump need a reclaimer? What can I expect for amount of CFM's and inches of vacuum from it? What does the knob on top do? Also how much oil should I keep in it? Any help would be great. Thanks.

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[Bucket Head]

Mine is patiently waiting for the right bush to come along, so I can't offer any advice on vacuum/performance.

I can tell you the knob is for "reversing it", meaning you can use it as a compressor if you want. As for oil, the dipstick on these goes right to the bottom of the crankcase. So the "low oil" mark is 3/4" up from the end of the stick and the "full" mark is 1 1/8" up from the bottom of the stick. My dipstick was missing, so i made one using 1/4" roundstock. Any hardware, farm store, Home Depot, etc. has that in stock.

You could put any motor on it, but I would think a 3 or 5 horse would be plenty. Probably more than plenty with the 5 on it. Just remember these piston pumps are slow turning pumps. All the Surge piston pumps I'm aware of are made to turn between 375 and 400 rpm. I think 440 is the maximum, but thats on a "newer" model than yours. I think 350-375 would be a safe speed for the old girl.

I don't know what the maximum vacuum would be with it, but I would'nt over do it trying to find out. What vacuum was for milking? Right around 15" I think. Maybe 18-20" would be the maximum- with the pump in good condition and a tight tubing system?? Even if all you could get was 15" out of it, 15" is better than zero.

There used to be some Youtube videos with that style pump running. Search Surge pumps and see what comes up. Good luck with it!

Steve

[lpakiz]

I use an SP 11 with a 3 1/2 HP motor, running about 1/3 throttle. It handles it fine, but won't start the load cold. I have to remove the belt, start and warm the engine (20-30 seconds) then shut off the engine, reinstall the belt and restart. (It's easier than it sounds). Uses about a pint of gas per hour. No regulator and no reclaimer, except the OEM "muffler" and runs 22-24 inches HG.
And the exhaust is plumbed out of the shack via a short flex pipe and 1/2 inch black water pipe, with the muffler outside the building.

[jrmaple]

If I'm correct the RV stands for rotary vane? And SP pumps are the piston pumps? Is there any way to maximize the vacuum? And does anybody know the pully size I will need to get? Hand turning it it produces good suction, it was used probably 40 years ago when my family got out of the dairy business when the required them to go to all stainless lines and tanks, has been sitting since.

[Bucket Head]

I'm not sure what RV stood for when that pump was made. Maybe "reversable vacuum"- who knows? But you have a piston pump there. The BB2 & BB4 as well as the SP 11 & SP22 are piston pumps. The Surge rotary vane pumps are painted dark green and are round in shape- almost like the the electric motors that are attached to them.

[jrmaple]

Ok that makes more sense now, so do you know if this is a BB2 or BB4 pump? I know the SP-11 and SP-22 pumps as I had an SP-11 for a short time, and how many taps can I put on this?

[BreezyHill]

Only got a minute,will post more later.

The RV surge pump was the very early models, there are many models of this pump and that one looks smaller than a bb2. Similar rotary valve (RV) for the timing to evacuate and seal the piston as it strokes in the pump.

Still is a solid pump with all the strength and longevity of a bb series(Babson Brothers) pump.

Ben

[Bucket Head]

There's the answer to the "RV" question!

I have known these pumps as RV-2 pumps. This style of pump is from at least the 1940's- possibly even earlier. The BB pumps came after what you have and the SP's came after the BB's.

Hopefully some folks on here have some prior experience with this style of pump. I don't know what they are capable of tap wise.

Steve

[jrmaple]

Thanks! If anybody else has any info or uses one of these Id really appreciate and if anybody knows what they are capable of such as how many taps, CFM's and inches of vacuum... Here's some other pictures of a regulator still in the system and also an old gauge, used back in the 50's before they were required to switch to stainless tanks and lines.
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[BreezyHill]

Steve is right the tag does say RV 2 but the pulley on the pump looks like a B size belt not an A. That unit should have had a 1- special pulley as it looks to not be a cast iron body. The Cast body was bulker than the Pressed Steel Body.

If the full serial number is after N 25570 it started production May 6 1940.

The motor size for this unit was 1/4 hp with a 3" drive pulley. It is very important not to over speed these pumps.

Taps...I would look to have under 150 as this unit was replaced by the BB1 pump for a small dairy with one milk pail. One pail is around 8 CFM at 15". If the pistons are tight and the sleeves are clean then you should be able to run in the low 20's and be in the area of 1.5 cfm.

These pumps didn't like moisture and were scored very easily with moisture in the oil. A good cleaning and oil change after the first 30 hours will help clean the rotary valve system out.

The RV series of pumps consisted of 14 different sizes and configurations with the RV2 as the smallest at 1/4 Hp to the ERV3 that took a 2 Hp motor.

She will make a nice unit with a very good moisture trap. Nice piece of Early American Farm History you have there.

Ben

[jrmaple]

It's been in the family ever since my great grandfather bought the farm and had a decent amount of milking short horns for milking! the system was still intact till recently when I went digging through the barn and found these goodies as my family never threw anything away and always left everything where it was last used so everything is still set up in working condition except for not having the motor as they probably took it to use on another project… I'm going to have probably have 300 to 350 taps on it, its a new system and I'll be working to keep it leak free as possible and I'll be shutting it off at night to try to prevent it from over heating.

One last question for right now, I'm sure over the years, even myself as a kid, I've turn the knob on top, can that effect the vacuum output? Turning it by hand it has excellent suction and spins freely, just needs a good cleaning. Thanks for the help.

[BreezyHill]

One last question for right now, I'm sure over the years, even myself as a kid, I've turn the knob on top, can that effect the vacuum output? Turning it by hand it has excellent suction and spins freely, just needs a good cleaning. Thanks for the help.

That is the reverser knob. Changes the timing on the valves so that it makes pressure. Not an issue as long as it returns back to vacuum alignment. If not then the unit will need to be taken apart, cleaned and retimed. Since it is puling good vac when spun by hand it is not an issue.

Use good oil in it and you will have it for the next generation.

300+ taps will only mean that you will not be running as high of a vacuum reading.

There are a few tricks that you can use to make the system run better with that number of taps and keep the vac as high as possible:

Electric releasers do not use any CFMs they actually produce a small amount of cfm every time they cycle,
A Swing check valve on the mainline(s) that entire to the releaser, on a mechanical releaser, will hold the vacuum in the tubing while the releaser cycles. This will allow your pump to evacuate the releaser while maintaining vacuum on the tubing system.
Balance tank is used as a vacuum reservoir. Usually it is larger by several times, than the releaser so that when the releaser ends the dump cycle it is quickly brought up to a higher vacuum level so as to not have surges and back flow on the tubing.

[Bucket Head]

You may know this, or have seen the "arrow", but I'll mention it anyway. There is a small arrow cast onto the top of the head indicating which way the pump/pulley is supposed to rotate. Wire brush the head and you'll find it. With the pulley facing you (oil dipstick side of pump on your right) the pulley rotates counter-clockwise.

Steve

[jetdoc]

I use this exact same pump in our woods for vacuum. I have it set up on a 5 H.P. Briggs. we have it connected dierectly to our Zero vacuum tank she will pull 22" HG at the tank and i can go to my longest run of 3/4" main line and get the same reading. We have 600 taps on this set up and works like a charm. As for the CFM i'm not sure what it actually has. I perfer to use this pump over my DaLaval 76 pump.

[lpakiz]

I know this is hard to believe, but both myself and another sugar maker are using SP-11s with gas engines turning about 850-900 RPM. on both of our super -tight systems we are getting 26 and 27 inches at the end of 600-700 foot mainlines.
Last season, with a Bender, 24 was MAX!

[Bucket Head]

That rpm is too high for these pumps. There were many different motor/pump pulley diameters used on these, but the highest rpm I saw listed was either 425 or 440. I have some Surge literature stating this.

Remember, they are not manufacturing any replacement parts for these anymore and used stuff is getting scarce. If anyone experiences a failure, they'll be looking at at purchasing and installing a completely new set-up.

Low rpm's will ensure years of service- above and beyond the years of service they have already provided!

Steve

[Bucket Head]

I looked up the Surge literature I had. An SP11 should turn approx. at 440rpm with a 3 1/4" diameter pulley and 475rpm with a 3 1/2" pulley. Everyone will have to do the math with whatever size pulley they have and at how many rpm's their motor (gas or electric) turns. Just make certain your not going too far above whats listed for these pumps.

The BB4 and SP22 pumps have the same rating as each other; 390rpm with a 3 1/4" pulley and 420rpm with a 3 1/2" pulley.

Steve

[BreezyHill]

Good Job BH.

One must also remember that to slow on these pumps is worse than to fast. To slow and the oil is not properly thrown onto the cylinder walls and onto the cam shaft and bearings causing seizure and or over heating of the cylinder which leads to piston failure.

Parts are scarce but there is a source of bearings, and machine shops are rather slow in many areas and would love the work I am sure.

If one is using a gas motor to power these units one can purchase an rpm tester for very little $$$ on ebay...less than the oil change on these pumps. This is by far the best way to ascertain the actual rpm you are running at to protect the unit.

Ben