New arch build, few material questions

[optionguru]

A couple of years ago I built an oil tank evaporator with 3 and a half steam table pans that then became 4 and a half steam table pans and a preheater then I was planning on going to 5 pans and realized it was time to step up to another level. My operation is small for family and friends but I found myself boiling long after the family and friends had given up for the night. I'm sure this isn't anything new to anyone on here.

I found a deal on a couple of stainless pans that are much too big for me but I'm going to use just the front pan from the set up and build an arch for it. The front pan is 41" x 48" with dividers, the rear pan is a tiger rib design (raised flue??) 41" x 60". I'm building the arch 41 x 60 in case I someday can handle the flue pan. Question: When making the firebox what gauge sheet should I use, I will firebrick it. What gauge would you use for the ramp area? If I go with heavier sheet on the front can I just plasma cut the door opening or will I still need to weld in angle to avoid warping.

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Thanks,
Pete

[psparr]

If you use ceramic blanket to insulate, you could use a light guage. Plus the insulation will save you wood as well.
For my oil tank I made my own door by cutting it out and welding angle on the opening and the door. I like the fact that it is big enough to load easy. The only problem is the insulation gets torn up from the wood and the door will start to warp a little. With a cast iron door that wouldn't be a problem.

[Pibster]

I used 20 gauge sheet metal lined with firebrick. The sides do not get very hot.

[n8hutch]

If you are building an arch from scratch use insulation, arch board or ceramic blanket is really personal preference, You will get more heat in your pans and you will be able to get close to the arch w/o burning your legs:lol: , your visiters will be safer also, we had A uninsulated small brothers arch(just brick) and after a 3 hour boil it would drive you out of the sap house so much heat came off the sides.

[mellondome]

Just a comment on the pic. You don't want to recess your pans, But have them sit on the rail just turn your current rail upside down. Recessed, you cannot connect a draw off that will completely drain the pan . Not sure how your pan was plumbed, but most pans will have the draw off flush with the bottom of the pan or a side box that is flush with the pan bottom and has a bottom drain/drawoff,

Also, if you use a flue pan, you will still need to use flat pans to finish on. So it has no benefit to make it bigger than the pan you are currently using. You can always stretch it out later. Making it too big just makes more area to get burned on.

[optionguru]

Thanks for the input, the angle iron is on top of the channel and the draw off area is cut out above the channel so I can still get at it without a problem. You can sort of see it in the front left corner of this picture 10068

I see what you mean about the flue pan, I may be better just selling it and putting the money towards my sugar house materials.

Would you use 20 gauge for all of the sheet metal or should certain sections be heavier than others.

My oil tank evaporator only had brick and it would get pretty hot after a few hours so I like the idea of using insulation in more areas this time. I assume you would still use brick around the firebox??

[psparr]

I assume you would still use brick around the firebox??

Yup. Just to protect the blanket. I made a video of my arch showing where I didn't have insulation compared to where I did. Pretty neat, but crappy video quality.
http://youtu.be/YM8FXYav-PE?list=UUKxgCYB7fY07atFbhTA5LAQ

[fisheatingbagel]

I skinned my new arch with HardiBacker cement board. I used this on my previous arch, and it worked great. The arch is insulated with ceramic board and firebrick in the firebox area. The outside never got so hot you couldn't touch it.

Cement board is dirt cheap, and easy to work with. I'm going to post some photos eventually of my new build. This is for a Smokey Lake 2x5 hybrid pan.

[Schiefe4]

Pro-rating your tap count over the years it looks like you may not want to sell that flue pan. You get up to 500+ taps it may be worth it. Looks like that is only a few years away lol

[optionguru]

Scary to think about, but if the kids become a little more "inspired" (pronounced: less lazy) I could see some more growth in the coming years.

When using insulating blanket how do you attach it to the arch?

[psparr]

In the firebox, the brick will hold it in place. On the door, I just used self tapping screws with washers. Works well. Then on the ramp, it will hold itself in place.

[Schiefe4]

I used the board. It is really easy to work with. I bought it local but found some places on-line that sell it.

http://www.ceramicfiberonline.com/

I was told the blanket may compress behind the brick and that would make the blanket less effective. Either way you are doing the right thing by insulating it.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

1. use ceramic blanket or board every where
2. you only need bricks where you throw wood and if you have a drop flu and brush the flues need brick there
3. if you have brick only and you can stand next to your rig with out your thighs burning your fire isn't hot enough
4. definitely put AUF but do AOF since brand new and your building it.
5. FYI, I have 2" of ceramic blanket 2600 deg and I cant touch my sides after a couple hours.

any vertical surface my blanket wouldn't stand I used 1/4-20 stainless bolts spot welded them to the tin and then used 1" washers and nut.

[optionguru]

Great idea with the 1/4" bolts. I'll do that with board or blanket so nothing moves around, thanks.

[optionguru]

Another question. With my tap count for the coming season being 70 to 100 I'll need to boil a couple of times I haven't decided yet on batch boiling every couple of days or trying to use the pan as it was designed and establish a gradient and draw off throughout boiling. It appears that my pan was designed for the sap to come in and the draw off at the same end of the pan. My preheating tank will be on the opposite end from where I believe the sap needs to enter the pan.

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In the pic the draw off valve and thermometer port are in the front left corner and if you follow the holes in the dividers the sap would want to come in on the front right corner. Does this mean the pan was designed to be installed rotated 90 degree from how I have it? Will this still work or should I stick with batch boiling a few times until I have enough syrup in the pan to cover the bottom an inch thick (about 8 gallons). Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Schiefe4]

Another question. With my tap count for the coming season being 70 to 100 I'll need to boil a couple of times I haven't decided yet on batch boiling every couple of days or trying to use the pan as it was designed and establish a gradient and draw off throughout boiling. It appears that my pan was designed for the sap to come in and the draw off at the same end of the pan. My preheating tank will be on the opposite end from where I believe the sap needs to enter the pan.

10165

In the pic the draw off valve and thermometer port are in the front left corner and if you follow the holes in the dividers the sap would want to come in on the front right corner. Does this mean the pan was designed to be installed rotated 90 degree from how I have it? Will this still work or should I stick with batch boiling a few times until I have enough syrup in the pan to cover the bottom an inch thick (about 8 gallons). Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

If you are doing continuous draw-off with a single flat divided pan I would suggest putting your draw-off location as far back on the arch as possible to keep the heat constant under the area where you are making syrup.

[optionguru]

Update. Got to work on the arch a little yesterday. I know it's a little more square than usual at 40x48 but the pan was such a good deal I think it will work out well. I'm interested in thoughts on door dimension and front thickness. I'm making most of the arch with 20ga but it feels a bit too flimsy for the front, should I use something thicker or just do more structure behind it to firm it up? Any thoughts and opinions on the work thus far would be appreciated.

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Also wondering how important it is to have the signature angled flue collar most factory arches have. My last homemade arch just had 6" stove pipe stuck into the top of it.

[Bucket Head]

The angled/widened collar and base stack is so the heat travels rearward the whole width of the arch. Having just a pipe in the rear will make the heat "funnel" towards the opening, so your rear corners of the pan won't be boiling much. Possibly not boiling at all. Since your arch is a little on the wide side in relation to its length, I would try to get the smoke stack connection as wide as possible.

Steve

[maple flats]

Just add an extension on the back, and build a wide stack base. You could even rebuild a 55 gal drum split in half lengthwise and then come off the top of that with an 8" stack. That would be far better than a direct pipe connection and an elbow. With the 40" wide you will then have a nice start when you grow. You can then add a 3 or 4' long flue pan behind the syrup pan. Just start watching for pans in the used equipment sections, it could appear at any time, but my guess is that you have time. If you find a used pan it will likely not be just 3' long, more likely 4-5-6' long, or get a custom pan made (or make one yourself if you can.

[Super Sapper]

The firebox looks a little short. If you are going to leave it like that I would put the fire door on the side instead of the front. This way you will be able to use about 36 inch wood instead of about 12. Keeping an even heat with that width would be a pain with short wood.

[optionguru]

The whole arch is a bit wider than normal so it makes everything look out of proportion. The firebox is 18" front to back, I think I'll do a front door but make it a bit wider than normal. My wood source tends to be a lot of end cuts from a friend who owns a lumber yard so I don't really get long lengths anyway but the price is right.

Still questioning the material for the front of the arch 1/8" so it has some rigidity or stick with the 20ga and do a lot of framing to stiffen it?

[Super Sapper]

By the time you insulate and brick it you will be a bit shorter. I would look into 2 doors and alternate loading with this. As far as how heavy a gauge to make the front, it would depend on if you are going to insulate it. If insulated well I would think you could get away with 20 gauge if supported. The sides of the fire box are exposed to the same things as the front so keep that in mind also.

[lpakiz]

When I fastened the blanket to the sides of the arch, I tacked 3/16 SS nuts to the skin or wherever I wanted to retain the blanket. I got some SS 3/16 Redi-Rod and cut studs about 1 1/2 inch long. I screwed the studs into the nuts til they bottomed out, about 3 turns or so. Then pressed the blanket over the studs til it was "home". Flat washers and nuts completed the job.
The washer/nut/stud combo lasted 2 seasons before the nuts burned off. It was a simple matter to unscrew the nubs and replace them without further welding. This time I put a dab of furnace cement on each nut/washer to try to prolong their life. Someone suggested making a cap out of ceramic blanket material and tuck it in around and over the nut.

[optionguru]

What size chimney pipe am I going to need. Will 6" be good or do I need to upsize?

[optionguru]

Some updated pics of the build. Still wondering if you all think I should use 6" or 8" pipe?

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As always any guidance is appreciated.

[n8hutch]

If 8" is available to you I would def go with that as a minimum. I don't think you would want anything smaller than that. With an arch that wide I would be thinking bigger like 12" just in case you ever want to stretch that arch out at least you wouldn't have to buy a new stack.

[Bernie/MA]

I didn't see anything in your posts about grates. I picked up some cast iron house radiators that will come apart for diferent sized fireboxes. I'm in MA, forgot to see where you are. Post back if you're interested.

[optionguru]

I'm in Northern NH. In my last evaporator I used steel "catwalk" and then beefed it up with some more substantial steel underneath so it would hold its shape under the heat. I'll use that if I can't find a deal on something else soon or I may weld some heavy angle iron and make a grate. Does anyone know how heavy the angle would have to be to hold up?

[Bernie/MA]

I used 2x2x3/16 square tube, ends open, for one I built for my son-in-law. It's been 3-4 seasons and looks as good as when I built it. I put it with one corner up spaced 1/2" apart. If I knew your size and area code I could come up with a price shipped for the cast iron. Weight would be slightly than scrap.

[optionguru]

Build Update:
Things are coming along pretty good. Still on schedule, mother nature has the final say on this one I guess. Here are the latest pics. Any comments or pointers are welcomed.

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[Pauly V]

Thats a nice job!..Best Of Luck..