Can you go too big too early?

[11-Nick]

So I'm headed for my first season tapping trees. I planned on tapping 25 trees for my first year. I ended up marking sugar maples, all along a four wheeler trail that would be a 1 mile loop from my house. These trees are all within 30' of the trail. If I am willing to walk further away from the trail than that, or am willing to venture onto another trail, I could get many more sugar maples. If I throw some red maples in there, I could have a whole lot of trees.
I'm willing to build a set of pans (maybe flue pans using a brake) and a fuel barrel evaporator. Is there any reason I should stay smaller (25 trees) rather than larger (45-60 trees) for my first year?
It was suggested to me to go small my first year. I respect all input, so am considering it seriously. However, it kills me to think about investing time and effort in building flat pans and a small evaporator when EVERYONE says I will expand in future years. Why on earth would I build something I know is going to last only a year or two? It makes way, way more sense to me to build pans that will carry over for at least several years. Just my inexperienced thought, though.
I'm not baiting the conversation so everyone tells me to go big. I'm asking the sincere question of why should I tap a few trees and build small pans if I know I have the trees that will allow me to grow quickly in another year or two? I want to know what can go wrong.
It seems that if I have too much syrup and can't evaporate it all down, I can dump it and pull taps to scale myself back. On the other hand, if I over-build an evaporator and don't have enough syrup to run it, I have the available trees to tap to make it boil. I seem to be able to put myself in a flexible position for years to come, rather than limit myself with smaller pans/evaporator.
I respect the idea of taking the time to learn the basics, but what bad can come from tapping too many trees or building too big of an evaporator my first year?

Thanks for reading.

[maplwrks]

I think that you have answered your own question! You are the only one that knows how much time you have to put into this disease. Make your decision based on that and go for it. My advice is to make a rig to handle the 60+ trees, and keep it fun!

[MISugarDaddy]

I agree with Mike's advice. Even though we are a small producer with 300 taps and adding more each year, just remember, making maple syrup is addicting and you will find yourself adding more taps annually. We started with a 2' X 4' flat pan evaporator and 130 taps the first year. We only tapped for 5 days because by then I was so far behind that more sap would have gone to waste. I have no regrets for stopping that year though because we saw several improvements that we could make that would make the entire process more efficient. Even though we still use the same arch, we replaced the pan with a drop flue and added an RO last year which made it still reasonable to expand the number of taps we had. Based on our experience, I would definitely go with a unit that will handle more than the number of trees you expect to tap the first year. Enjoy your first season and remember to take pictures of each new season, it is fun to look back on the changes that you make each year.

[morningstarfarm]

My grandfather told me when I got started...plan how much you want to boil...then double that number...and you will only have to expand twice from that...

[Cabin]

So I'm headed for my first season tapping trees. I planned on tapping 25 trees for my first year. I ended up marking sugar maples, all along a four wheeler trail that would be a 1 mile loop from my house. These trees are all within 30' of the trail. If I am willing to walk further away from the trail than that, or am willing to venture onto another trail, I could get many more sugar maples. If I throw some red maples in there, I could have a whole lot of trees.
I'm willing to build a set of pans (maybe flue pans using a brake) and a fuel barrel evaporator. Is there any reason I should stay smaller (25 trees) rather than larger (45-60 trees) for my first year?
It was suggested to me to go small my first year. I respect all input, so am considering it seriously. However, it kills me to think about investing time and effort in building flat pans and a small evaporator when EVERYONE says I will expand in future years. Why on earth would I build something I know is going to last only a year or two? It makes way, way more sense to me to build pans that will carry over for at least several years. Just my inexperienced thought, though.
I'm not baiting the conversation so everyone tells me to go big. I'm asking the sincere question of why should I tap a few trees and build small pans if I know I have the trees that will allow me to grow quickly in another year or two? I want to know what can go wrong.
It seems that if I have too much syrup and can't evaporate it all down, I can dump it and pull taps to scale myself back. On the other hand, if I over-build an evaporator and don't have enough syrup to run it, I have the available trees to tap to make it boil. I seem to be able to put myself in a flexible position for years to come, rather than limit myself with smaller pans/evaporator.
I respect the idea of taking the time to learn the basics, but what bad can come from tapping too many trees or building too big of an evaporator my first year?

Thanks for reading.

Storage!? If you tap too many trees for your pan size you have to store the extra sap longer. If you have too big of a rig you have to build up a supply of sap before you start to boil. I started with 6 taps and am now up to 45 this past year. I am still working on the storage problem.

[BreezyHill]

Nick, I would suggest that you do a little math and let the figures help you decide. Figure the size you want to be at, in relation to hours of time to boil. Then figure the number of trees you will need to provide this amount of sap. The base number for gravity production is usually 8-9 gallons of sap on an average years production. From 11 days of runs on average. This number does change depending on weather and other variables. The data chart I am looking at is from 2013. The most collected was just over 1 gallon in a day run with 2 run days back to back on two different times.

It is often easier and more time efficient to keep your trail distance shorter and walk a little more. On a good day with a wheeler you will not get far and have to go back and dump your tank. When the late winter sun starts to thaw a trail it can become difficult to get the wheeler down the trail with a load of sap. We have a 35 gallon tank on a wheeler to water livestock. This is a good load for a wheeler. The time spent opening and closing the top adds up quickly. A bulk strain for milk will be a good investment to clean the sap and make dumping buckets easier with less spillage.

In the not so distant future you will likely have collection points and tube nearby trees to a tank. A 12 volt pump on the wheeler will make collecting the tank easier and you can be dumping buckets while it is pumping. A tank on a trailer and a small tank on the wheeler will increase your safe load capacity.

Our operation started much like yours; DYI evaporator and buckets in a small lean to. In a short five years we were out of our second sugar shack and into a 26x30 sugar house with concrete floor and drain, to house a 3 x 10 evap which we out grew in a couple years and added a 4 x 16 to be the work horse. In 1982 we got an RO and the following year eliminated the 4x16. Way too much wood to feed both units. In the 2000's we got a Air tight 2x6, as dad was looking to slow down and I was off in other directions with 3 young sons. 2010 dad passed and we took 2 seasons off. 2012 we started back up at the insistence of the sons and we are retubing the entire farm to get back to max production of the farm. Next summer will be the tubing of the last bush. One son will graduate college in 2017 with plans to come back to the farm with his GF and expand everything, Feed mill, angus cattle, Maple, and add greenhouses. They both have used our operation in their Ag Business classes as a farm model to see what keeps us going where other farms have closed up. It has been an interesting ride in the last three semesters providing numbers via email and text and having two classes providing suggestions for growth and restructuring of the farm. They even went on a field trip to visit a producer near the school in central NY to compare us with, and to see first hand what Maple is all about. While I have not changed what we are doing in our operation it is very obvious that when they get back to help run things we are going to be taping off the farm.

If you have the skill and tools to build an evaporator in a few seasons you will be building your own RO. This will make the pans you build, last several more seasons and allow you to tap more trees until you find what size works for you by maximizing your boiling time.

With the work that Steve Childs at Cornell has done on small RO systems there is no reason to limit your tap count, on boiling rates of fresh sap when it is very easy to build an RO and boil concentrated sap.

When you switch from boiling 2% sugar to boiling 10% or even 16% sugar you will have opened a new chapter in your book. Suddenly you will be looking to have the sap come to the sugar house thru tubing and utilizing high vac to get even more sap(150%-180%), from those same trees.

One part of this "diseases" is that it makes you look at how to do more in the same amount of time and increase efficiency in every part of the business; while keeping it fun! When it becomes work, all the time...then the fun is done and it is only work. But if you have kids, relatives with kids, kids in your area, or can higher kids from the town, you can teach a very important lesson to todays youth and give them a sense of self-reliance and end the current sense of entitlement.

Nearly every day I am asked by my middle sons girl friend when we are going to start laying more tubing. We just finished clearing honey suckle and rose bushes from a section of the bush and weather permitting next weekend we start. 3000' of 1".

Build toys to make it easy and it will stay fun!

[unc23win]

One of the biggest problems with going too big too early is the storage time of sap. If your rig is too big your sap could spoil. If I were starting new from zero and had funds and time I would find a sap buyer either on shares or out right then I would get myself a rig that is slightly larger than what I think I need. Then if I can't keep up or don't have enough sap I can sell it and still make $.

Or on the flip side go bigger and become a sap buyer yourself especially if you know someone who has tapping supplies, but maybe doesn't have time to boil maybe they would get back into tapping.

The thing is once you get started tapping and get your initial number done its easy (most of the time) both $ wise and time wise to add more. Its the initial investment of time and money that you have to do to start that can be hard.

Make a chart in excel and calculate what you think a rig can do based on surface area of sap per hour and the total number of hours you would be willing to boil and then input different numbers of taps and sap per tap variables and you will see how much sap you might need to get started with the size rig and you will see the max you can handle before needing enhancements such as preheaters or ROS. Everything I do expansion wise in Maple I do on excel first I have one that figures out how much my tap expansions are going to cost approximately (based on keeping track of previous installs) and I have one that figures out approximately how much time I will be boiling each night with enhancements.

Big Eddy gave a pretty detailed answer to this very question in another post.

For everyone the variables of time invested, money invested, and taps available are where the (sometimes hard) decisions are made.

[Big_Eddy]

You can't boil sap you don't have, but you can easily dump sap you can't boil. Tap more trees if you have them. Boil until you've had enough or made enough, pull the taps and clean up. I know people who boil on weekends only - anything that flows Mon through Wed gets dumped on Wed night so fresh sap is available on Sat morning. I also know folks who collect until the tank is full, then dump any remaining trees. They know how much they can boil and limit themselves with storage.

It's a real drag to be sitting at breakfast on a perfect March morning, with a pile of firewood, an evaporator and no sap to boil. Sap is good.

[psparr]

You can't boil sap you don't have, but you can easily dump sap you can't boil. Tap more trees if you have them. Boil until you've had enough or made enough, pull the taps and clean up. I know people who boil on weekends only - anything that flows Mon through Wed gets dumped on Wed night so fresh sap is available on Sat morning. I also know folks who collect until the tank is full, then dump any remaining trees. They know how much they can boil and limit themselves with storage.

It's a real drag to be sitting at breakfast on a perfect March morning, with a pile of firewood, an evaporator and no sap to boil. Sap is good.

Great advice! Also about your flue pan, if that's the route your headed. You could build your oil tank arch and just use the flue pan. Just cover the remaining opening with a piece of steel. Unless your making both. You'll need the turkey fryer to finish on.
Remember though, collecting can be a real PITA!

[Big_Eddy]

I planned on tapping 25 trees for my first year. I ended up marking sugar maples, all along a four wheeler trail that would be a 1 mile loop from my house. These trees are all within 30' of the trail. If I am willing to walk further away from the trail than that, or am willing to venture onto another trail, I could get many more sugar maples. If I throw some red maples in there, I could have a whole lot of trees.

A mile is a LOOONG way to be collecting sap, especially on a 4 wheeler trail in the bush. You really want tight groups of trees where you can stop your tank, and collect 5-20 trees at once. For giggles, load up your tank / trailer and drive your route now, stopping to carry a 5 gal pail (half full) out to each tree and back. See how long it takes you. (Then, to simulate deep snow, flatten all 4 ATV tires and fill your rubber boots to the top with water and try it again. :) ) More trees are good if they are close and convenient - not so good if they're not.

Can you conveniently turn around and go back when your tank is full, or is this a narrow trail and you need to complete the loop? How dry is the trail (in the spring?) How flat or steep? Can you tow a trailer or are you limited to a tank on the rack? Can you clear snow if needed?

As PSPARR suggests - collecting can be easy or a real pain in the neck. I'm fortunate enough to have clustered trees and 4 strong lads.

What I have done in the past is tap only those trees close to the road to start, then as the snow melts and more of my bush opens up, I add another group of trees a bit further in. Might be something to consider.

[11-Nick]

For giggles, load up your tank / trailer and drive your route now, stopping to carry a 5 gal pail (half full) out to each tree and back. See how long it takes you. (Then, to simulate deep snow, flatten all 4 ATV tires and fill your rubber boots to the top with water and try it again. :) )

Makes me laugh.

Good advice all around. I can't see a downside as long as it stays fun, as someone has already said. Am continuing to look into all my options. Can't weigh everything too long, though.... Feb/Mar isn't far away.
Thanks for honest input. If I haven't been there... I can't possibly know the down sides.

[11-Nick]

Okay, so suppose I start with a rig that is oversized for the number of taps I have. I can tap more trees (I don't think trees is going to be an issue at this point). But, in the mean time, suppose I have to wait a day or two between boils. If after shutting down today, I DON'T FINISH OFF the sap that is in the pan.... how long can I safely leave that sap in the pan to start boiling again when I get more sap? (assume we are having 45 degree daytime highs) How many days will partially boiled sap keep in the pan?

BTW, I tried to search this. I know I can keep sap several days as long as it is kept cool. I didn't know if partially boiled sap was any different.

[NhShaun]

It would be easier to store the concentrated sap in buckets, compared to leaving it in the pan. So if it gets warm during the day and you don't have time to boil you could pack around them with snow or throw them in a cold fridge, or if room permits, freeze.

As for going to big, it all depends how much time and help you have available. If you have plenty of trees and time, then by all means build a bigger evaporator set up. But like everyone else has mentioned and i know from personal experience.. Hauling sap can be a pain especially with deep or melting snow. And then storage comes into play.. The first year is more of a learning experience to get the hang of things. You don't want to overwhelm yourself and take the fun out of it. I started my first season last year and had around 75 taps, Cooking in stainless stock pots on a propane stove... I learned a lot about what to and not to do. Do some math and figure out the boiling rates for the pan sizes you have in mind, and that might help you pick a number of taps. Like a few said, you can always dump sap if you have too much. Good luck.

[11-Nick]

A side note: In several threads I've been in, the subject of snow has come up, and how it interferes with sap gathering. I'm in south-central PA. Snow has become the exception rather than the rule.

I think I am just going to run headlong into it. Build an evaporator. Tap a bunch of trees. I'll either be low on sap because I'm long on pan and short on taps (I can tap more if life allows). Or I'll have too much sap and not enough time to boil. I can always dump, although that feels like it would be a sin.
In either case, I'm looking forward to the learning experience for me and our kids. In the end, if I come up with a few gallons of syrup to slide me through a year, I'll be golden. I can create a new game plan for the next year and hit it closer to the 'sweet spot' for my time, evaporator, and # taps.
I used to be into building cars. Every one, you tweeked to do better than the last one. I can see this following the exact same pattern. I new preheater here. A different pan there. How can I squeeze another 3 gph out of this bad boy?

[lpakiz]

You might consider selling excess sap. That way, you can tap all the trees you want to.
Are there any bigger producers near you? Ask them if they are interested. I have a couple regulars who sell me all their sap. There are also a few who sell me excess sap throughout the season, whenever it overwhelms them. For me, dumping good sap is not an option.

[kiteflyingeek]

Nick-11,

One thing that I never considered as I expanded in my first year is the amount of time it takes to do the bucket collecting. I found it took me 2-3 hours to get the 64 taps that I had on buckets. They were on 3 different properties all within 1/2 miles of my shack (all family). Just something to consider as you estimate how much you can do your first year. Have fun!

--andrew

[11-Nick]

Thats the one thing I've been wondering. Collecting may be more time consuming than I am anticipating. Everything is 'easy picking' from the four wheeler trail, so I don't have to walk far at all. Unfortunately, most of it is flat, flat, flat. In the area where I marked trees, buckets are my only option. I do have other areas with more slope where gravity feed is an option, though.

[kiteflyingeek]

Well, one thing I thought of for you with your mile loop is to drive to the end to start collecting. Is like I've read on here -- guys will have kids & teens help and it isn't long before the youth figure out to walk away from the vehicle EMPTY and then collect on the return trip. Yes, the gas engine doesn't care but the sloshing and turn around WILL care if you are loaded ;-)

Just another thought I had about your situation.

--andrew