Insights From A Pro Tubing Install

[GeneralStark]

A friend of mine is involved in a large sugaring operation up the road from me and when I ran into her recently she mentioned that they had recently finished installing another 12k taps to bring them up to about 35-40k total. I have been watching their progress for several years and have gained many insights into how some of the big guys set up their woods. I had some time a couple weeks ago to take a walk, enjoy the foliage and check out how they set up this new section. I thought I would post some photos here for anyone curious about how some sugarmakers are setting things up.

All of their mainlines come to the sugarhouse, which is Quebec style, and everything ends up buried and then into the basement. Here are the 8 mains (4-2" and 4-1.5") from this one 12k section.

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From here the mains go uphill, across a stream and then split to several areas. Instead of combining the flow to larger mains, they opted to keep everything separated from the main areas to the sugarhouse, hence the 8 mainlines. Here is one main junction, probably about 1/4 mile from the sugarhouse. Every junction is a bit different, and in some areas a Booster is involved, but generally just Ts were used to split mains. You can also see a lateral main "whipping" off, parallel to and between two wet/dry line to pick up taps along the way. They were very meticulous about not connecting 5/16 laterals to the main conductors.

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They were also very meticulous about keeping the mains as straight as possible and supporting them very well. The whole system was laid out using GIS to take advantage of the available slope. Here you can see some wet/dry conductors well supported. They did not use side ties anywhere, which I thought was interesting because in other past installations they did. Instead, they nailed the wire to trees with the nail through a scrap of pipe, and the pipe scrap around the wire. The second photo shows this.

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[GeneralStark]

They generally used whips for lateral mainline connections to wet/dry conductors. If there were more than three mains joining, they would generally use a booster in these situations. The boosters were also generally used to continue wet/dry main runs.

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I think the thing that impressed me the most was the amount of lateral mainline they used (only 1") , and how few taps they had on each lateral. The most I saw was 3 taps on one lateral and there were many 1 or 2 tap laterals. In locations where it would seem logical to run one lat. and pick up 3-4 taps they would do 2-3 lats. It seems they were really trying to avoid bends in the 5/16 lats. The next photo shows this. There are 3 laterals here joining the 1" mainline for a total of 5 taps. You can also see another example of the wire support nailed to the yellow birch.

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[GeneralStark]

They often split 1" lateral mainlines with a Y as shown next. Once again, they used lots of mainline and laterals were rarely longer than 50 ft.

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They also used inverted lats. in a few areas in the river valley (as shown in previous photo) that defines the lower area of these woods. And in a few situations they used this interesting variation on a sap ladder.

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Those are all the real highlights of what I found, but obviously there is much more to it. I think the major take home for me was the large amount of mainline to insure short laterals with few taps. They had really made a major investment in saddles, and they were using Leader saddles which I was a bit surprised by as they use Lapierre saddles everywhere else.

Anyway, hopefully other will find this useful as tis the season for setting up the woods!

[unc23win]

Nice pictures General thanks for sharing.

Is that ladder all 5/16'? What's at the top?

[GeneralStark]

Nice pictures General thanks for sharing.

Is that ladder all 5/16'? What's at the top?

It's actually not a ladder at all and is instead just three laterals, each with 1 or 2 taps that are strung tight and sloped down to the tree they are all wrapped around (yellow birch in center), and then go up to 3 saddles. One saddle for each lateral. I think they are just relying on the tree gases to carry the sap uphill to the main.

[unc23win]

Oh ok so the bottom is a T or Y up to a saddle?

Interesting I was thinking about trying the same thing for trees around my house so the line aren't trip wires. I actually was wondering why it wasn't tried more. Your pictures don't aren't copyrighted are they? I would like to download them and enlarge them. Thanks

[GeneralStark]

Oh ok so the bottom is a T or Y up to a saddle?

Interesting I was thinking about trying the same thing for trees around my house so the line aren't trip wires. I actually was wondering why it wasn't tried more. Your pictures don't aren't copyrighted are they? I would like to download them and enlarge them. Thanks

Jared-Feel free to use the photos. They are for educational purposes.

There is no T or Y involved. I think what you are seeing is the slide fitting they use for tensioning laterals at the mainline wire, or around an end tree. I'm not sure who makes them but I know LaPierre and CDL sell them. In this case they are using them on each lateral (some are hidden) where it goes around the yellow birch to keep tension on the lateral between the end tree and the birch.

[unc23win]

Ok now I see it thanks that makes it even easier. I would think that each line is more than capable as long as they are not overloaded or too long. I am gonna try some of them for sure. Now if I only had more pumps and or releasers to keep track of the sap and compare results. I really like the way they did the whips as you said meticulous. I am already installing more mainlines, shortening laterals, and putting less taps per saddle and I noticed improved results last season. What's another $1000 in saddles ha ha.

Excellent share thanks again.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Outstanding post!

Regarding the "Quebec style" sugar house -- what is that, also do you know how they keep the mains from freezing where they enter the ground?

[GeneralStark]

Ok now I see it thanks that makes it even easier. I would think that each line is more than capable as long as they are not overloaded or too long. I am gonna try some of them for sure. Now if I only had more pumps and or releasers to keep track of the sap and compare results. I really like the way they did the whips as you said meticulous. I am already installing more mainlines, shortening laterals, and putting less taps per saddle and I noticed improved results last season. What's another $1000 in saddles ha ha.

Excellent share thanks again.

I'm sure the modified sap ladder, like inverted lats., isn't as productive as sloped laterals but as you said if you keep the lats short it should work ok. Better than not tapping those trees at all. I have several inverted lats. and I am always amazed how well they work.

Saddles and mainline costs do add up quick, but the increase in syrup production will likely make up for it very quickly. In an install like this one, the other factor they have to balance is time and cost to do the install. This one was contracted out to an outfit from Franklin County, though the owners designed the layout using GIS to minimize the time involved. I think the lack of side ties related to this as well as it is easier to just use trees to tack the wire to. They also used lots of stainless mainline fittings, which add up in cost, but according to my friend that does the maintenance they find the cost is worth it due to not having to repair those junctions.

[unc23win]

I'm sure the modified sap ladder, like inverted lats., isn't as productive as sloped laterals but as you said if you keep the lats short it should work ok. Better than not tapping those trees at all. I have several inverted lats. and I am always amazed how well they work.

Saddles and mainline costs do add up quick, but the increase in syrup production will likely make up for it very quickly. In an install like this one, the other factor they have to balance is time and cost to do the install. This one was contracted out to an outfit from Franklin County, though the owners designed the layout using GIS to minimize the time involved. I think the lack of side ties related to this as well as it is easier to just use trees to tack the wire to. They also used lots of stainless mainline fittings, which add up in cost, but according to my friend that does the maintenance they find the cost is worth it due to not having to repair those junctions.

I couldn't agree more.

[GeneralStark]

Outstanding post!

Regarding the "Quebec style" sugar house -- what is that, also do you know how they keep the mains from freezing where they enter the ground?

"Quebec Style" refers to a modernization of the sugarhouse to a "food processing facility". Large Quebec producers have driven this trend towards a more functional, well designed and laid out facility. Typical features include multiple levels ie. basement, first floor, and often a second floor as well. Mainlines generally come in underground to the basement and then the sap is typically pumped to storage to then feed the ROs. The evaporator(s) room is generally very large and open with plenty of space to work. There is no cupola as they generally have hung ceilings, hoods and stacks. Cement floors with drains and 100% cleanable surfaces are essential. There is often additional work space for other functions like canning, syrup storage, etc. In many there are living quarters for the crew, offices, kitchen, etc.

In the situation I am referring to, their sugarhouse is "Quebec style" in many of the functional and aesthetic ways, though they do not have living quarters.

I don't believe they do anything to prevent the mainlines freezing where they go underground, except make sure they are well sloped. I have seen this in several large Franklin County sugarhouses and they also just slope the pipe well.

[JoeJ]

General,
Thanks for the nice pictures. I used similar criteria last year when I installed 2100 taps in a new woods. Long straight wet-dry lines supported mainly by posts and occasionally attached to a inline tree. However, unlike this install, I have a vacuum gauge at each of my 19 mainlines along the 2,690' wet-dry line. I can walk up the wet dry line to each main, shut off the ball valve, and in ten seconds, if the gauge does not move at all, on to the next one. I know at lot of people do not like gauges and rely on the sound of air rushing through the semi closed valve or watching the sap flow. but to me, the gauge takes the guessing out of the leak search. If I see the slightest drop on the gauge, I write the mainline number down in my note pad, and continue on until the last mainline. It takes about 15- 20 minutes to check all of the 19 mainline along the 2,690' of wet line. I then head back to any line where there was the slightest drop in vacuum and find the leak. I am running 27 1/2" of vacuum and a few of the leaks last year were hard to find.
I also did the straight as possible laterals, 3 taps max on a lateral, and ended up using 934 saddles on 2,140 taps. Unfortunately, the sap production result was very disappointing due to releaser disasters, and vacuum pump problems that probably put the system out of production for several days. I was expecting 28-32 gallons of sap per tap, which I average in my other woods and ended up with 17.5 gpt. I really got to see the effect of vacuum on one vacuum repair night when we turned the vacuum back on at 10:30 PM. During the 6 hour repair,the sap was running 1/4 full in the 1 1/2" wet
line under just gravity. By 11:00 PM, with the wood under 27 1/2" of vacuum, the 1 1/2" pipe was running over 3/4 full.

Joe99329933

[syrup2nv]

JoeJ,
What are you using for pipe on your wet/dry?

[JoeJ]

The wet and dry line are SDR 26. 1 1/2 wet line, 2 dry line in. 20' lengths with glued bell ends. I started to use it 7 years ago after 1,100' of 1 1/2 black maple pipeline I installed for vacuum started to split all along the length of the pipe under the printing on the pipe. I went to visit a couple of larger producers with 12-18,000 taps that had used the white glued pipe for years and were still expanding using the same pipe. So I decide to try it and liked it. I don't think that it is too bad to work with. I don't like installing 1 1/2' and 2" diameter pipe from a roll. The white pipe is cheaper, $.31 a foot when ordered by the pallet for 1 1/2. The biggest issue with this type of piping is the expansion / contraction factor. The 2,690' run of pipe requires 3 expansion/ contraction joints. That length of pipe moves about 9-10' in length at each expansion joint between the June install temperature and -22 degrees in January when I hooked up the expansion joints (at the maximum shrinkage). I used flexible vacuum pipe the make the joint connection. The expansion joints are straight during sugaring and bowed during the heat of the summer at maximum expansion.

Joe

[bees1st]

Joe , Is that a misprint ? " 9 / 10 FEET " ?? If it's not, that's crazy!

[Fiddlehead]

I think he meant inches. I hope so. But otherwise an interesting set up.

[JoeJ]

I guess that I goofed on a very important typo. The shrinkage is 9"-10". I measured the distance between the adapter fittings in the summer and wrote the exact distance on the fittings with a sharpie. Then I could determine the exact shrinkage the morning I was out there at -22 degrees.

Here is flexible vacuum tubing installation method that I learned about last year, especially when trying to install the flex tubing on SS fittings at -20 degrees. I brought as small metal 6" deep pot into the woods along with a propane torch. Heated up water to almost boiling, stuck the end of the flex tubing in the water, sprayed a little PAM on the outside of the SS fitting and the flex pipe just slid onto the fitting.

[Howard]

I guess that I goofed on a very important typo. The shrinkage is 9"-10". I measured the distance between the adapter fittings in the summer and wrote the exact distance on the fittings with a sharpie. Then I could determine the exact shrinkage the morning I was out there at -22 degrees.

Here is flexible vacuum tubing installation method that I learned about last year, especially when trying to install the flex tubing on SS fittings at -20 degrees. I brought as small metal 6" deep pot into the woods along with a propane torch. Heated up water to almost boiling, stuck the end of the flex tubing in the water, sprayed a little PAM on the outside of the SS fitting and the flex pipe just slid onto the fitting.

Joe, Would you be willing to show me your set up, using the pipe?

[JoeJ]

Howard,

I sent you a PM

Joe

[J. hutchins]

Joej, How is it fixing damaged pvc in cold weather? How do you do corners, just a length of flex tubing and glued barb fittings?

[JoeJ]

In the 7 years that I have been using the PVC piping, I have had to repair the PVC only a couple of times in the real cold weather. Most of the pipeline damage has been from summer or late falls blow downs in some real bad wind storms that we have had in the past 4 years. The repair is just as simple in the cold weather as in the summer. Can of primer, can of glue, pipe saw, length of pipe and a some couplings. It goes together pretty easily. I use all sch 40 fittings due to more glue area on the fittings. When I did the install, I bought the sch 40 fittings from Plumbing Supply.Com. They had a great selection of all sch 40 fitting including PVC slice valves.

It just happens that in these new woods, there is no sharp 90 degree corners. The two turns are probably 115 degrees. The first turn is 300' from the sap shed at an anchor tree where I had to put in an expansion joint so I just used the flex tubing with SS threaded barbed adapters. The second turn 850' away is just a long sweep the did not require any fittings, but I did install another expansion joint about 20' past the turn. Then it is a straight shot 1515' to the end with one more expansion joint at about 750'. Otherwise, for a real 90 degree turn, I would just use 45's.