Cleaning tubing

[adk1]

What does everyone do to clean their lines? Air, air and water mixture, nothing? Just curious. I have been doing the air and water cleaning the past three seasons, but haven't gotten it done yet.

[unc23win]

I do nothing.

[wnybassman]

I do nothing. How do you find the time? lol

[Drew Pond Maple]

I flush my lines with 150 gal of water and 1 cup of bleach, with honda wx10. I did try air water mix the first year but didn't work so well.
Haven't had any snots in my lines in the last 2 years.
Thinking of trying the " nothing" idea in the future

[lpakiz]

I used water one year. Long boogers.
I used water and iodine. Long boogers and funny taste in syrup at first.
I used hydrogen peroxide and water this spring. So far, not a hint of anything nasty!

[nymapleguy607]

Run the vacuum while pulling taps, suck a little water through each tap as I pull it. Not the best but helps keep the lines a little cleaner.

[adk1]

haha, if I had vac! which i dont

[BreezyHill]

In or operation cleaning equipment is just part of maintance.
Over the past 40 plus years we have gone from vacuuming in water with a bactericide, to bleach and water, just water, a tubing washer with air injection back to vacuuming bleach mixture and to this past season using peroxide mix.

Per Steve Childs data and recommendation for what we are facing in our tubing as a result of squirrel damage we will be putting a peroxide solution into every drop this fall. In the spring we sucked in the same solution and saw good results but not perfect. In the last 18 months we have had a squirrel and rabbit explosion on the farm. One 25 acre bush has yielded 2 dozen gray tails and a handful of red. Another 20 to clean out after the leaves fall.

We have had great success with bleach application under vacuum while pulling taps for the last 10 years. With the high number of gray rats in the bush I decided to not tempt fait and got to peroxide. We still have a small amount of black spotting in one lateral and in the main after the lateral for a few feet. We will be using a back pack sprayer to inject the spouts and drops with solution and will flood the mains with the same solution on gravity slopes and the latters will be pump full with a 12volt pump on the atv.

The solution will set in the lines overnight and the lines will be vacuumed clear and rinsed the next morning. Don't forget that hydrogen peroxide turns to water when the extra oxygen atom is released. So there is no residue in the lines, no nasty odor, and is safe to spill on the ground or dump the wash and rinse on the ground. Just be careful when mixing the concentrate into the solution. It has a strong whitening affect on skin and hair.

I have been very impressed the way that the peroxide has cleaned a 10 year old atv tank to like new condition. During season, we wash down collection tanks and storage tanks every two days. The peroxide in the sprayer will be tried to see if this reduces labor and will only need a 1x rather than a 2x rinsing of the tanks.

I look at washing our equipment as a time saver and a pride builder. After the first initial runs of the season we often don't need to change the filter after the releaser, as all the tubing spirals and sawdust are removed...usually. When giving tours and we are checking lines for leaks I do not want to see any black spots, cloudy lines and absolutely no buggers in the glass releaser system. This is rather disturbing.

Never forget the 4 P's of production: Pride, Perception, Presentation, & Product.

When a producer has PRIDE in his operation, PRESNTS a clean production system and Quality PRODUCT; the Perception of the buying public is this is a clean and safe product to feed to their family and loved ones. It is a lot easier to say Thank You! than to reason away a mistake.

One boy of the 4-H group helped me bring wood into the sugar house last season. After lugging in wood for 20 minutes I grabbed the 18" squeegee and cleaned the concrete floor of our tracks. Just before he left he asked if he could clean the floor before leaving...I said sure, have at it. He did a magnificent job and didn't leave a spot. The next day his mom texted me. What did you say to him yesterday??? Well we talked about how many hours a day it takes to boil and we actual discussed why we cleaned the floor after bring in wood....Why I asked. Well he always sleeps in on Sunday...I awoke at 7 am to the vacuum cleaner running, so I peaked in his room and could see the floor for once; obviously I was dreaming so I went back to bed. Seems the boy had gotten up early and cleaned his room and vacuumed from corner to corner. Later that morning she texted back and asked if the boy could come over and help boil and clean the floors. I told her "he is always welcome!" They came a short time later and she hugged me and said thanks! Seems he found that work was more fun than playing video games and sitting in the house. I ran out of jobs for him to do that day.

There is still plenty of time before the bush freezes for the winter, to do some kind of cleaning of the tubing.
It may take a few hours to do a good job but the rewards are Great!
I think it helps us reach our goals of higher production and limiting expenses.

Ben

[unc23win]

http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/tubing_cleaning.pdf The highlights of the publication are below. Credit PMRC for the following as I copy and pasted.

Interestingly, although it is well known that tubing systems cleaned with air/water suffer rapid and steady losses in yield over time due to increasing levels of microbial contamination (Perkins et al. 2010), it remains the most commonly used tubing cleaning method. It is likely that the "no clean" and "dry clean" methods are no more effective at cleaning tubing as the "air/water" method. Therefore, according to these surveys, nearly three quarters of U.S.maple producers utilize tubing cleaning methods that are ineffective in terms of maintaining high sap yields.

In order for cleaning, either with or without chemical sanitizers, to be recommended, the net benefits of cleaning on sap yield and/or sap quality must outweigh the cost of materials, equipment and labor required to clean. Otherwise cleaning is wasteful both financially (money spent where it results in no net profit) and in terms of time lost that could be more wisely spent on other activities.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

According to Leader 95% of all tubing in US and Canada isn't flushed and this is probably accurate because majority of taps are huge producers and nearly everyone one of them don't flush.

[maplestudent]

One boy of the 4-H group helped me bring wood into the sugar house last season. After lugging in wood for 20 minutes I grabbed the 18" squeegee and cleaned the concrete floor of our tracks. Just before he left he asked if he could clean the floor before leaving...I said sure, have at it. He did a magnificent job and didn't leave a spot. The next day his mom texted me. What did you say to him yesterday??? Well we talked about how many hours a day it takes to boil and we actual discussed why we cleaned the floor after bring in wood....Why I asked. Well he always sleeps in on Sunday...I awoke at 7 am to the vacuum cleaner running, so I peaked in his room and could see the floor for once; obviously I was dreaming so I went back to bed. Seems the boy had gotten up early and cleaned his room and vacuumed from corner to corner. Later that morning she texted back and asked if the boy could come over and help boil and clean the floors. I told her "he is always welcome!" They came a short time later and she hugged me and said thanks! Seems he found that work was more fun than playing video games and sitting in the house. I ran out of jobs for him to do that day.


This made me smile. Thanks for posting it.

[BreezyHill]

In the last four years, since the study you mention was done, there has been several studies completed that show the effect of cleaning. The latest is this years presentation on cleaning and the effects on production that was a joint effort between Childs & Perkins. This showed that cleaning of listed technique resulted in nearly the same productionof gallons of sap as new drop and spout. So a little simple math: product cost for solution $35, cost of dedicated sprayer $50 for 5 yrs. Time spent cleaning tubing 3hrs at 3x @ $10/hr =$90, $10 for atv use and fuel. Total of $145 plus another $.18 for seasonal spout on 700 taps = $126 for grand total of $271 or a total cost of less than $.39/ tap.
The production numbers listed was 7.9 gallons more for new vs old and un washed spout and drop. So at just 5 gallons more sap at $.50 a gallon you turned a profit of over $2.10 per tap...or on this 700 tap bush another $1470 dollars for that $271 investment.

Seems pretty sizeable return to me for taking a few hours to was the tubing. Put $3 in and get back $15 in a years time...now that is return on investment!

This is all data that was presented by Steve Childs of Cornell University this summer in a power point.

If a person is satisfied with air and water results or not cleaning...I will not fault them for doing what is best for them. I just know what I have done and how it has worked for our operation over the years; in a never ending goal of the most production at a profitable return on investment.

No disrespect intended, just many thanks to Steve and Dave for all their efforts over the years and future efforts!

Ben

[GeneralStark]

This showed that cleaning of listed technique resulted in nearly the same productionof gallons of sap as new drop and spout.

What are you saying? Do you have a reference for this you can point us to? What's a "listed technique"?

It sounds like you are saying that washing your tubing using some technique annually will result in nearly the same yields as replacing your drops and spouts every year. IS that right?

Is this what you are talking about?

http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/pubs/2013%20Maple%20Tubing%20Research%20Report.pdf

[unc23win]

What are you saying? Do you have a reference for this you can point us to? What's a "listed technique"?

It sounds like you are saying that washing your tubing using some technique annually will result in nearly the same yields as replacing your drops and spouts every year. IS that right?

The only one I found is the same one you found from Cornell was 2013 Study which is one year newer than the PMRC one in 2012. Anyhow the only part that I saw that mentioned 7.9 gain was vacuum clear spout new drop vs vacuum new spout old drop, which is exactly what General is saying.

They did have one where they treated spouts with alcohol for 12 hours during the season that did better than untreated, which is obvious I would think since they are killing bacteria during the season. However the vacuum treated with isopropal vs untreated spouts, drops 3rd year showed no significant difference. Maybe there is a newer one. I see very little dirty spots in my lines and drops and from what I know from research what I can't see can't be cleaned so I would rather replace a percentage of drops each year and spouts every year.

Oh I forgot the math new drop 30" long .275 plus new seasonal spout .18=.45 every 5 or 6 years.

[BreezyHill]

What I have is straight from Steve Childs of Cornell University. In his email he states this was from a power point, at a talk that he did this season. Steve is one of our states land grant college's contacts of all things maple for our 4-H club.

The last time that I shared info from Cornell, Dr Tim got upset, stating that it was copy right protected material and that it is for purchase. Thus to not upset the good DR. again; I have to state that the name of this section of the presentation is 2014 Tap Hole: Sanitation and Vacuum.

It is definitely ground breaking data that will change the way progressive producers manage and maintain their tubing systems for maximum production.

The key to the sanitation is to let the product sit so that it has an affect. Remember that Dr Tim eluded to this point that we need to have contact of product to kill spores. The vacuuming into the spout and system has little to no affect; but letting the sanitizer have contact for at least 30 minutes and results are major!

I was recommended to let it sit for a day and then vacuum out or let the first run flush it out. I will opt to flush with water while vacuuming it out to remove the black spots I have in the system.
.

[GeneralStark]

I would still like to know the cleaning methodology being employed in this study you are referring to as in past studies done by Cornell that showed similar yields between a washed old drop and spout and a new drop and spout, they were using the following methodology:

15+ year old drops were washed with water and detergent (doesn't say how), then rinsed, then subjected to a 10 minute 10% chlorine treatment, and then a 20 minute Hydrogen Peroxide treatment and finally rinsed and drained.

If in the new study they were actually using a method that could be utilized by a sugar maker easily on an installed system, there may be something to this study, but this method would be difficult to reproduce and would likely not yield the same results.

I will personally wait until this information goes public and is more widely tested before doing more than pulling taps under vacuum. If cleaning makes you feel better, go for it.

[BreezyHill]

Talk about irony...In a few days we have a National Holiday to celebrate a man, Chris, that nearly everyone of his time said his theories were impossible and could never be.

But on his side was his experience, math, science, and faith. Fortunately for the world, he didn't listen to those that were still thinking the world was flat, when for years he had seen it was round.

Happy Columbus Day!

[BAP]

What I have is straight from Steve Childs of Cornell University. In his email he states this was from a power point, at a talk that he did this season. Steve is one of our states land grant college's contacts of all things maple for our 4-H club.

The last time that I shared info from Cornell, Dr Tim got upset, stating that it was copy right protected material and that it is for purchase. Thus to not upset the good DR. again; I have to state that the name of this section of the presentation is 2014 Tap Hole: Sanitation and Vacuum.

It is definitely ground breaking data that will change the way progressive producers manage and maintain their tubing systems for maximum production.

The key to the sanitation is to let the product sit so that it has an affect. Remember that Dr Tim eluded to this point that we need to have contact of product to kill spores. The vacuuming into the spout and system has little to no affect; but letting the sanitizer have contact for at least 30 minutes and results are major!

I was recommended to let it sit for a day and then vacuum out or let the first run flush it out. I will opt to flush with water while vacuuming it out to remove the black spots I have in the system.
.
Interesting to have copyrighted material you have to pay for from work produced and paid for by your tax dollars.

[DrTimPerkins]

The latest is this years presentation on cleaning and the effects on production that was a joint effort between Childs & Perkins. This showed that cleaning of listed technique resulted in nearly the same productionof gallons of sap as new drop and spout.

Actually, that is not completely correct. It is a bit too complex to try to explain quickly, but I will try to give you a brief summary. Of course it depends what measure you wish to use....sap yield or net profit (after subtracting out the costs of doing some certain activity).

In any case, UVM PMRC and Cornell are involved in a 3 year joint NESARE Project examining cleaning versus replacement (and using them in combination). Steve Childs in the Cornell investigator, Dr. Abby van den Berg is a UVM investigator, and I am the Lead Investigator. We are looking at several different cleaning methods including: "dry cleaning" (pulling spouts with vacuum on), water cleaning, isopropyl alcohol (with some liquid left in the drops to supposedly provide vapors to continue to sanitize the tubing), bleach (calcium based as opposed to sodium based...hopefully to reduce critter damage), and hydrogen peroxide + peroxiacetic acid. In addition we are comparing replacement of new spouts annually, new CV spouts annually, and new spouts + drops annually. Finally, we are looking at a combination of cleaning with those different sanitizers plus replacing the spouts annually. Keep in mind that we have only done 1 yr of 2 yrs of planned research on this, and different seasons can produce different results.

At PMRC we applied the cleaning solution by sucking in through the spout under vacuum.

At Cornell all the drops were brought in from the woods and immersed in the cleaning solution for 30 min, then rinsed, then put back out into the woods.

We used 6 yr old spouts/drops for our research. The sap yield results at PMRC indicated that cleaning with anything was better than not cleaning ("dry cleaning"), but simply replacing a spout got slightly better results, the CV adapter did better than that, and the best was (and always is) a new spout and drop. In terms of economics, cleaning comes out last, ESPECIALLY for the peroxide, bleach, and isopropyl alcohol, and even more so if you include the fact that you are SUPPOSED to let the first sap run on the ground. The next best was replacing the spout, followed by the CV, which this year was just edged out by drop replacement (it was a good production year). We actually had two very similar experiments with the same treatments and found essentially the same results in both experiments.

Now because Steve did things in a different way, he found different results. The spouts were 2 yrs old and the tubing was 4 yrs old. His sanitation treatments (soaking the drops for 30 min) was far more effective (not at all surprising). Although sap yield after cleaning (in general) was much better than not cleaning when done this way, replacing spouts (on old drops) did slightly better than that, using CV slightly better than that, and new drops the best. In terms of economics, cleaning was lowest (bleach did the best, isopropyl alcohol resulted in a net loss), a new spout better, a CV spout just slightly better, and the new drop was NOT as good (economically) as a new spout alone.

One thing for sure....it doesn't appear to be economically advantageous to BOTH clean and replace spouts, except that it might delay the need to replace drops by a few years (so maybe every 5-6 yrs instead of every 3 yrs). If you do a GOOD job cleaning, the replacing spouts may not add much value. If you replace spouts, then cleaning may not add much to your bottom line.

I'll be talking a lot more about this at meetings this winter, but again, we've got another year to do this before we construct and finalize all our economic models and start making recommendations based upon those.

[DrTimPerkins]

Interesting to have copyrighted material you have to pay for from work produced and paid for by your tax dollars.

The material in question regarding the copyright was from a manual that was being SOLD by Cornell. I do not know who paid for it to be produced, however I do know that Cornell was selling them, and thus would probably would not have been pleased to have it distributed freely on the web. My suggestion at the time was that the person offering to put it on the web check first with Steve Childs and see if that was the case.

[DrTimPerkins]

It is definitely ground breaking data that will change the way progressive producers manage and maintain their tubing systems for maximum production.

The key to the sanitation is to let the product sit so that it has an affect.

I'm glad you like the research, but think it is a little premature to declare victory just yet.

Unfortunately contact time is just part of the story. Steve did his soaking treatments just prior to the season beginning. While it definitely improved yield (and net profit), cleaning with bleach or peroxide in advance of the season is unlikely to have such a beneficial effect. Bleach degrades to chlorine salt over time. Peroxide degrades to water. So if you're doing your cleaning in the spring or summer, there is plenty of time for regrowth of microbes in the line in the fall and early winter. That is what isopropyl alcohol (IPA) is supposed to solve.....leaving some residue in the lines is (supposed to) continue the sanitizing effect until the spring. Unfortunately IPA (besides not being approved for maple use in the U.S.) is non-sporocidal (doesn't kill spores), so as soon as the sap starts to run, stuff starts to regrow.

I think one thing is pretty clear....sucking a small amount of cleaner/sanitizer in through the dropline under vacuum is not terribly effective. There is simply not enough contact time. To get good enough contact time you need to soak the drops/spouts....which unfortunately seems to be most effective only if done just prior to the season, and is fairly labor intensive.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Dr. Tim,

Wouldn't bleach, even calcium based kill an RO membrane??

[TheMapleMoose]

Are you taking syrup quality into consideration with the current study? Just curious if different cleaning methods, or new hardware (spouts, drops, etc) might have a positive or negative affect on syrup quality. Perhaps a benefit of one over the other might be less commercial grade, or off flavor syrup? I.E. Maybe washing my tubing doesn't increase my yield but instead of 2 barrels of commercial, now one of them is grade A.

[adk1]

I am curious to know why you are supposed to let the first sap run on the ground as Dr.. Tim indicated? Seems like a waste of some of the best sap?..I always filter the sap.

[GeneralStark]

I am curious to know why you are supposed to let the first sap run on the ground as Dr.. Tim indicated? Seems like a waste of some of the best sap?..I always filter the sap.

If using some kind of cleaning solution, the general practice is to let the first run go on the ground to rinse the tubing. Some do this when not cleaning just to rinse all the slime that accumulates in the tubing during the off season. The general concept here is that it is probably not worth making commercial syrup from the first run of sap.

[GeneralStark]

Thanks Dr. Tim for the clarification on the cleaning method used by Steve Childs. I look forward to hearing more about it.

[DrTimPerkins]

Wouldn't bleach, even calcium based kill an RO membrane??

The levels of active chlorine are fairly low, especially if you clean in the spring. There might be enough to taste. This is one reason you are supposed to allow the first run of sap to go on the ground.

[BAP]

Are you taking syrup quality into consideration with the current study? Just curious if different cleaning methods, or new hardware (spouts, drops, etc) might have a positive or negative affect on syrup quality. Perhaps a benefit of one over the other might be less commercial grade, or off flavor syrup? I.E. Maybe washing my tubing doesn't increase my yield but instead of 2 barrels of commercial, now one of them is grade A.
I agree with this. I think more should be done to see if syrup quality improves from tubing cleaning and not just emphasis yield. Even a marginal increase in quality will help your bottom line. So even if changing spouts has a higher increase in yield over cleaning, if cleaning also adds to quality, then it might be worth doing both. After all, we are making a food product so food safety should be a priority.

[DrTimPerkins]

I agree with this. I think more should be done to see if syrup quality improves from tubing cleaning and not just emphasis yield. Even a marginal increase in quality will help your bottom line. So even if changing spouts has a higher increase in yield over cleaning, if cleaning also adds to quality, then it might be worth doing both. After all, we are making a food product so food safety should be a priority.

I agree that this would be nice. Unfortunately there are several operational/methodological issues that make answering this question quite difficult. Not that it can't be done.....all it takes is time and money. :)

My sense is that cleaning "might" have a small influence on grade early in the season, but it is unlikely to make a huge difference after the first run or two. Even in the first run the difference isn't likely to be as wide a spread as from a real light syrup to a Commercial syrup. Realistically, with most of those sanitizers you SHOULD be letting the first sap run on the ground, and that is a far greater loss.

[BAP]

Maple syrup production is probably one of the only food production industries that it is OK to use dirty equipment to produce food. Any other food producing has to spend and even "Waste" money cleaning their equipment to meet sanitation standards. I think you will find that if consumers knew about all the nasty looking stuff that comes out off tubing left over from last years production, they would put up a big stink like what has happened in many of the other Agricultural Food Production industries.

[BreezyHill]

Maple syrup production is probably one of the only food production industries that it is OK to use dirty equipment to produce food. Any other food producing has to spend and even "Waste" money cleaning their equipment to meet sanitation standards. I think you will find that if consumers knew about all the nasty looking stuff that comes out off tubing left over from last years production, they would put up a big stink like what has happened in many of the other Agricultural Food Production industries.

This is why it is important that producers that are giving tours hold themselves to a higher standard than those that are more...under the radar.

Having a future daughter in law(FDL) that has 14 food allergies it has become paramount in our operation that we keep everything as clean and prevent cross contamination in the production area of the sugar house. No more letting the dogs come in when the wife brought down dinner. She cant even do that anymore. Instead I have a relief boiler for dinner time or just wait and eat latter.

Look at what has happened to spinach...buddy owns two subway shops. He uses 25% of the spinach from before the ecoli on the spinach issue. He can only purchase products from approved venders that have all the right papers on file for each farm they buy from.

All it is going to take is one publicized mistake and our industry will be in a world of hurt. When the FDL was tested she had maple as one of the test items. She laughed and the MD said you would be surprised how many are allergic to maple lately.
I am wondering if it is the maple or other things that have gotten into the maple that is the issue???

If honey can help a person with allergies over come an allergy then could maple cause an issue if a person is allergic to pet dander, vegetable oil, etc. I understand that our heat levels kill most pathogens but what about allergens???

[GeneralStark]

Are you taking syrup quality into consideration with the current study? Just curious if different cleaning methods, or new hardware (spouts, drops, etc) might have a positive or negative affect on syrup quality. Perhaps a benefit of one over the other might be less commercial grade, or off flavor syrup? I.E. Maybe washing my tubing doesn't increase my yield but instead of 2 barrels of commercial, now one of them is grade A.

I think this all depends on how you define "quality" of maple syrup as to some light syrup is high quality as they can get paid more for it by packers, but for others certain flavor profiles suggest higher quality. There is no question that equipment used and the methods employed in a sugaring operation will have an impact on the final product's quality (once again depending upon how you define quality).

As Dr. Tim suggested, it would be difficult to test all the various factors and isolate all the variables that affect syrup quality, but there are certainly things to consider. If you are basing the question on commercial vs. table grade, that may be a bit easier to clarify, but maybe not.

[GeneralStark]

Maple syrup production is probably one of the only food production industries that it is OK to use dirty equipment to produce food. Any other food producing has to spend and even "Waste" money cleaning their equipment to meet sanitation standards. I think you will find that if consumers knew about all the nasty looking stuff that comes out off tubing left over from last years production, they would put up a big stink like what has happened in many of the other Agricultural Food Production industries.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you just referring to tubing systems or are you talking about evaporators, ro machines, tanks and such? Certainly some funky stuff stuff can come out of a tubing system, but if managed correctly this will have little to no impact on syrup quality.

I think many of us are extremely meticulous about keeping our equipment clean and go above and beyond sanitation standards. Certainly this is not industry wide as you can still find people using non food grade equipment and making syrup in less than sanitary conditions, and this is why new standards are coming.

[BreezyHill]

I think you will find that if consumers knew about all the nasty looking stuff that comes out off tubing

I think GS has been burning the candle at booth ends.

He is pretty clear about the stuff that comes from the tubing nothing about all the rest of the equipment or the sugar house. :cool:

[n8hutch]

No doubt that the stuff, gunk, slime, Ropey snot, whatever you want to call it that might come out of your mains the first run "I saysay might because some years are worse than othersothers" is not the most attractive looking , and most people probably wouldn't want to see that, however I thinkthink if you polled most people and asked them if they would rather see some natural bacteria or cultures in sap tubing or have the tubing that carried the sap that their syrup was made from cleaned with A "bleach" solution . I'd put my money on the natural all day long.

[unc23win]

I think GS has been burning the candle at booth ends.

He is pretty clear about the stuff that comes from the tubing nothing about all the rest of the equipment or the sugar house. :cool:

I read it the same as the General BAP says equipment and then later says that about stuff coming out of the tubing. I don't consider tubing equipment.

[batsofbedlam]

I've used a 50/50 vinegar /water mix at the end of the season for years. I suck it into my stubbies and close it up. I haven't had any gunk in my lines and the lines look good as new. I do let the first day run on the ground to flush my lines.

[GeneralStark]

I've used a 50/50 vinegar /water mix at the end of the season for years. I suck it into my stubbies and close it up. I haven't had any gunk in my lines and the lines look good as new. I do let the first day run on the ground to flush my lines.

I have been doing the same thing for several years with good results. I also change drops annually.

[BreezyHill]

I don't consider tubing equipment.

Webster's Dictionary... Equipment -Tangible property (other than land or buildings) that is used in the operations of a business. Examples of equipment include devices, machines, tools, and vehicles.

Tubing, buckets, spouts, would seem to fall under this definition. It just seems odd to me that everybody washes or at least rinses their buckets, so why not tubing.
I recall several VT meetings talking about the importance of sanitation in the late 1970-1980's, and how sanitation of equipment starts with your tubing system.

It is like at the county fair....the cotton candy booth with the pretty girl with her hair pulled back sells far more than the booth with the girl that has long hair that looks unbrushed...and don't get me started on the dreadlocks...I would buy anything from them...just looks nasty.

And I am a farmer...bring me lunch in the tractor, pasture, or hay mow I don't care just feed me!

[AdirondackSap]

The difference between maple and other crops is you boil the sap to 217 plus degrees. You are killing any bacteria there might be so you cant compare dirty equipment in maple to other crops. If your pans are little dirty just the sap boiling kills bacteria. Then you filter the syrup what is wrong with that as long as you bottle at 180-190 degrees. So your equipment is alittle dirty you make darker syrup thats all Bap dont knock people please bc they cant afford a high end sugar house with running water everything else. When you boil you pasteurize the sap syrup thats why we can get away with what you say is dirty tubing

[Schiefe4]

What is the recommended percentage (i.e. 5% solution) of Hydrogen Peroxide to use when cleaning tubing and the amount of solution each tap should be exposed to?

[BreezyHill]

The product I use is 26.5% Hydrogen Peroxide and 5.6% Peroxyacetic Acid. The label states to mix 1 to 2.4 oz to 6 gallons of water.

I use a Comercial Grade back pack sprayer that is dedicated to this purpose. It holds 3 gallons of water and I add the 1.2 oz of the concentrate. I hold the drop, spout down and fill the entire drop until the mixture enters the lateral line. Then I level the line and plug the spout; then let hang or wrap around the lat line.

The total volume will depend on how long your drops are and how much goes into the lateral line. Rough math is 100 30" drops per gallon. So figure 90 for any spillage.

This concentration has stopped the black mold in the line just past any of the squirrel chew spots. Where I knew there was black, I just over filled the drop closest to get product into the contaminated area.

Squirrels seem to be leaving the lines alone except for nest trees. These now have survey flagging on them to make dispatch easier.

[Schiefe4]

Thanks Breezy!

The stuff I am getting is 27.5% Hydrogen Peroxide and 5.8% Peroxyacetic Acid from the Michigan Milk Producers Association. Sounds to be about the same.

[BreezyHill]

That should do the job just fine.

Be sure to not get it on your skin in the concentrated form. The 35 gallon tank I use to wash the mains looks like new again after running three loads of solution out.

Good Luck!

[Ryan August]

Just adding to this thread. So I was out checking my tubing, pulling things tight, getting ready. I have some "junk" in the lines, some drops look like they may have a little mold. What you all think, when the first run comes things will flush out? change the drops? hmmmmm

[lpakiz]

The first few runs will flush it out. I am trying a new idea--a step saver strainer, 14 inch diameter, suspended under the releaser. We'll see. If it plugs the strainer disc, it will just overflow, same as no strainer.

[maple flats]

I dump my first day's sap just in case there is any mold.

[unc23win]

If I find drops that are moldy looking I change them. I found 2 the other day and changed them. Petty sure it was because of the hemlock trees next to the maple.

[BreezyHill]

I had a couple that had black in them and the peroxide wash took it away when I ran the vac.

I kept the pipe line strain after the releaser pump to catch what it would to help the RO filter last longer. Early season change it every night. after a week of runs it will last several days.

[PACMAN]

I just drain lines, and then when it starts to run a little, I let a little run on the ground. I've done this since I have had my lines in. No sap buggers in sap yet.

[BAP]

Has anybody tired or researched using PBW (Preferred Brewers Wash) to clean tubing? If so, what were the results.

[BreezyHill]

Did you mean powdered brewers wash?

Friend has a brewery and uses it but it seems more like a product that needs to sit with lines full for a few days to get the full affects. I have seen the kegs and the fermenters after they were rinsed twice to remove all the residue and they looked great..no scrubing was needed.

I would try it on some lines in a soak before I put it in all the lats and mains; for fear I may not get all the residue out.

I never gave it a thought after seeing the extent they rinse at.

[DrTimPerkins]

I would try it on some lines in a soak before I put it in all the lats and mains; for fear I may not get all the residue out.

Correct. PBW (and similar products) is an alkaline (pH 12, very strong, like lye) sanitizer composed of sodium carbonate and sodium metasilicate. It is meant to be put into liquid then placed into the item (container or tubing) that is to be sanitized, heated to 130-140 deg F, then left to soak for 30 min to 4 hrs minimum depending upon the surface and degree of soiling, or longer (a day or more) if the liquid cannot be heated. Afterwards, the item must be very thoroughly rinsed to remove all residues. The soaking and rinsing requirements make it impractical for most maple producers unless they bring all their drops in each year.

[Goatogether]

It is like at the county fair....the cotton candy booth with the pretty girl with her hair pulled back sells far more than the booth with the girl that has long hair that looks unbrushed...and don't get me started on the dreadlocks...I would buy anything from them...just looks nasty.



this is offensive to women and other people..

[tcross]

you're offended? are you a woman... or the "other"?

[blissville maples]

[QUOTE=Goatogether;396455]this is offensive to women and other people..[/QUOTE

Guys like pretty women, they stare at them, it's a fact that will never change as long as this Earth spins like it or not it's the way it is....Maybe the fat ugly girl should stop eating like a horse and get off her *** instead of sit in sorrow and act like the other 10 billions people on the planet are responsible and we must change who we are for you. Haha ok, not happening and it's not ok and it's not right.
I guess we should get rid of the Miss America Pageant because there's people out there that aren't pretty, or allow people at proms to just wear Street attire so as not to look better than anybody else. Sometimes you people need to think about what the hell you're saying
Just like a flower vs grass.....like a Prius vs a mustang......a chihuahua vs a border collie.....shorts vs pants......tile floor vs linoleum........

I built my house people like it they may not like yours as much so does that make me a bad person because you don't get as much attention. I don't cry when I see the neighbor driving his 75 $80,000 pickup truck and I don't have one I don't feel any less of a person I really fail to understand what's wrong with these types of people

[DrTimPerkins]

Some may note that a recent post was deleted....that was done for a specific violation of the forum rules against bringing up politics.

You might also note that the second post by the same person was left. While some might find the post objectionable, opinions can vary on a variety of subjects...and the poster was simply making a point that was not specifically insulting one person or any certain group.