Questions about 1st evaporator

[11-Nick]

A number of questions, and I'm sure I'll forget some before I get done with this post...
My kids and I plan to take our first shot at syrup in the spring. I went out and marked trees yesterday. I had a tough time distinguishing between sugars and reds, but only marked the ones that I had a leaf to confirm it was a sugar. (can't yet name them based on bark alone) I have 20-25 sugars that I marked within 1/4 mile of the house. I stopped at this number, but could have probably doubled my count if I would have confirmed some of the trees that I skipped were, in fact, sugars. Could have tripled the count if I only would have ranged out a bit further. If I would have picked up some reds, I'd have way, way more than I want to tackle in a first year.
1. For first year, I need to figure out what the heck I'm doing and get some sort of method figured out that fits our lives. I found a 275 gallon fuel tank (good shape) on craigslist that's close home for $75. I may pick it up for the future, as that doesn't seem like a bad price. But I don't plan to use it this first year. I may start with a block evaporator. Easy to put up and take down when we're all done. I plan to use three 6" deep restaurant pans and put copper drop tubes in them. I think building them alone is a big time and money investment for the first year of a new hobby. My problem is fitting boiling time in my life. Life is busy with work and committments, so I want to make sure we can boil as efficiently as possible so we can get the max done in the minimum amount of time. That's why I'm going for the drop tubes. These pans can be carried over to a fuel tank evaporator in a future year. Is there anything wrong with this logic, or is there anything I could/should consider that may make things easier or faster come boiling time?
2. If I have 3 or 4 pans in my set up, should all pans have drop tubes? Or only certain ones?
3. As far as evaporator, I'd like to somehow get a grate under the fire to get it up off the ground. I'd like to get AUF somehow to increase my boiling rate. I'd also like to get a stack at the other end of the evaporator. In pictures, I've seen copper tubing coiled around the stack for a pre-heater. Seems efficient. The stack and coil could carry over to a future evaporator. Any problems with these ideas?
3. At this point, I can see us being able to boil twice a week- three times at the most. So I have to save/store sap for 3-5 days at a time. I'm concerned about spoilage. I can get food grade plastic drums to store in. But to put the drums near where I plan to boil... they will be in the sun. That doesn't help me if I want to keep the sap cool on the 35-45 degree days. How big of an issue is spoilage for me? I thought about bringing sap home at night and freezing 3 or 4 bread pans full of sap. I would basically be making ice cubes out of sap and put them in the drums the next night to keep the stored sap at a cooler temp as it sets in the sun through the day.
4. Having said all that... back to tapping trees.... Does 20-25 trees fit in with these ideas? Or do I need to adjust the plan or number of trees to make it work better?
Sorry for the long post. I had a bunch of questions. I forgot some, and intentionally left some out just because the post was getting too long. Will ask more later.
Thanks everybody!

[rayi]

I say no to the 275 gallon container if it had anything in it especially like flammable liquids. No sure how much expense is involved the your pan set up but look at the classifieds. There are some used smaller evaporators that pop up pretty cheap. I can tell you now go biger than you want on the evaporator. If you have the trees they will be taped sooner or later. I see some long nights in front of a fire in your future. Never used the coil around the pipe thing but have heard people say it could vapor lock and cause a big mess. Storing sap in the sun is always a bad idea. Maybe a tarp over the tank to shade it and snow around it. Heard of some people freezing sap in smaller containers so the ice would fit in the tank and cool it. Never tried it. I started on a 2 by 2 flat pan and only tapped part of the trees. 6-8 hours of boiling and some times less than a half gallon. Bought a 2 by 6 then put in tubing Now vaccum and looking at a RO for projected 600 taps. Yes I am Ray and I am a mapleholic. Hope you soon will be too. It's a great adventure especilly with kids if you don't burn yourself out by going too small

[n8hutch]

If you go with the buffet pans I would leave one pan with no drop tubes in it, this will be your last pan in series and that will make it much easier to dump your almost finished syrup out into whatever container you decide to finish with, that being said, I agree it may be better money spent on a used pan, Bascom's and other places often have 2'x4',5'or even 6' syrup pans for 300 to 500 dollars that you could easily use on a block arch or a Steele arch and would have some value when you want to upgrade to a different setup, plus you will make better syrup, not that it really matters you're going to love every drop. because you made it

[11-Nick]

I went to the Bascom site earlier.
Admitting I know nothing about making syrup, it seems that a homemade drop tube pan will boil off more water quicker than any of the nicer looking used flat bottom pans I see on that site. I don't see anything on that site that looks like it will give me as much surface area (faster boil) as a homemade drop tube pan. Is my thinking wrong?

[RileySugarbush]

Congrats! You will have a great time doing this with your kids.

Here is my opinion:

I have never understood the draw of starting with a fuel tank or barrel. For a few bucks you can get some angle steel and sheet metal and weld up an arch that will work better and all the surfaces are flat so it is easier to brick. You are going to cut and weld anyway, might as well do it right. For the first year, a block arch will work very well with your steam table pans.

Drop tubes are great and can increase the evaporation of a pan by 2 to 3 times. Leave at least one flat for finishing the syrup or you will burn it in the tubes.

You are right on the grate. Fine a way to get the air to flow up from below for best combustion and to prevent a big bed of coals that clog up to air flow. Adding a blower will really help, but wait a bit and see how it goes first, especially with a block arch. You will need at least 100 CFM and it will blow ashes all over if you don't have things sealed up.

Just do your best with the sap. Keep it out of the sun and if it gets more that slightly cloudy, thick about tossing it. A little cloudy will cut into the yield but can make some delicious dark syrup.

20 to 25 trees is perfect for this startup arrangement. Have fun!

[n8hutch]

You may get a faster evaporation rate with the steam table pans with drop tubes but there's a lot of things you won't get, with Individual pans you have to ladle the sap from pan to pan, larger flat pan you could setup some kind of constant flow into one side. Drawing off is much simpler all you do is open a valve, checking your density is easier, you won't be burning the sides of your pan, may be less ashes dust and wood debris and what have you in your pan do to taller sides, less chance of foaming over, after a few years of use it should be worth pretty much what you paid for it, you don't have to spend a bunch of Time building your pans, down side you loose some evaporation rate maybe 2-3 gallons an hour maybe more, plus you don't have the satisfaction of building it yourself, and you will spend more up front.

[psparr]

Welcome. Hope your ready for the ride!

Heres my 2 cents. Do what you want, thats what makes it fun! As for the drop tubes, are you planning to make them yourself? Soldering to stainless is pretty tricky. Also the copper arrestors you use to make the drops, are pretty expensive. My first year I found a stainless pan at a junkyard it was about a 2x3. It was rather thick and did make for some long boils. If your sure you can get the steam pans to work, go for it. However, if you can locate some stainless sheet and can find a local fabricator. You might be better off building a large flat pan cheaper, and be ahead of the game whe n you expand next year. Also you can build a pan from mild steel. It doesn't have to be stainless. I built an evaporator out of an oil tank my second year and don't regret it. I'll post a link to a video of it later. If your not going to use it this year, I'd hold off on it. I've seen them from $25- free. As far as grates, if yoh can weld then angle with the v up will make the best grates. I used a cast iron radiator that I disassembled. For the stack I got some heat duct from Lowe's. $5 a piece for 5' and they will be in their third year. For the preheater, be sure to wrap the coil from the bottom toward the top of the stack. Put a t in at the top and extend another piece of pipe up higher than your feed tank. Also put a valve at the bottom to control flow. Then another length of soft copper from the valve so when you run out of sap, you can run water instead. Swing the copper away from the pan so your not feeding water into your pan. For your sap storage you can take frozen water jugs and put them in your sap barrel. Maybe even put up a small wall to block some sun. I am only able to get to the mountains to boil on the weekends. I've only lost sap twice to spoilage.

Hope some of that helps. Also where abouts are you. I live in Lancaster county but tap in Huntington county.
Theres a guy near Harrisburg that sells drums on craigslist for $12 and there pretty clean. What are you going to use to tap and collect sap? My first year I used milk jugs. Cheap but a real pain. They would blow off my taps when they were empty.
Second year I hung 5 gallon buckets on clear seasonal spots with better luck. Now I have some taps on 3/16 gravity. And seasonal spouts with tubing into buckets.

One more tip. WATCH the pans when your boiling. They like to burn when your not looking!

[psparr]

Here's the video.

http://youtu.be/whRR8BlfocY

[Big_Eddy]

25 trees, first season.

Start with a block arch, and flat pans or steam pans. Forget about a welded arch, or drop flues / tubes, or anything more. You have enough to learn about tapping and collection and storage and boiling. Get into it, keep it simple and get yourself used to making syrup.

25 trees should produce 5-6 gallons syrup in the season. Boiling 2-3 times a week, you will be boiling 20-50 gallons at a time. Enough to make a 1/2 to 1 gallon of syrup. A nice size boil for a first season.

Collecting and storage are your immediate challenge. You need a workable method for collecting and hauling up to 50 gallons a day and an average for 150 gallons a week. If your trees are a ways apart, and the snow is 3' deep, this gets old fast.

Think about finishing. You will need a good stainless pot, a thermometer or hydrometer, and a way to filter. I like a propane burner for final finishing, but you can finish on the stove for these volumes.


Start gathering wood now - you will burn a lot more than you think :)

[11-Nick]

I went out yesterday and marked trees, but didn't count as I went. I estimated 20-25. I went out today and actually counted while I was looking at their proximity,and imagining my trip to collect sap. As it turns out, I marked 45 trees. I think I'll have to scale back to the original 20-25 number, though. I don't want to commit myself to boiling such a large amount of sap until I see what I'm getting into. As I said before, I'd like to keep my boiling time down as much as I can. (I guess I'm no different than anyone else on the forum.)
Leaving from my house, I will have a circle of less than a mile. Because I've never collected before, I don't know how much time will be involved in it. I "think" I will collect using a four wheeler with a tag along trailer. As long as we don't have a crazy amount of snow I think I'll be in good shape.

[Shawn]

what ever makes you happy to start with and go with that, started with twenty five tree's and a barrel stove and moved up the next year to fifty tree's and now we are at four hundred over half on gravity feed tubing and the rest buckets, collect with four wheeler's with tracks and also tractor when snow is not so deep, yep once you increase so comes the work and less sleep but worth it well worth it, because you did it!

[psparr]

Speaking of collection. Here's my system that works for me. I want to make a trailer for it instead of on top of the four wheeler. http://www.discussionsnetwork.com/forumfiend/uploads/images/7097.jpg

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Forum Fiend v1.2.7.

[11-Nick]

Aside from the classifieds on this message board, what are some other sites I can check for good used pans? I checked Bascoms. Looking for others. Thanks!

[n8hutch]

http://stainlesssteelcreations.net/masyeq.html, here's A link to some less expensive flat pans, I also think there is An Amish company A&A metals in P.A. someone may chime in with there #, there's lots of stuff out there , I personally got some pans from SmokeyLakeMaple on order they have been great to Deal with, you could also try the Mapleguys who sponsor this site, best of luck to you

[theguywiththename]

To what was said about flammable liquids being in a fuel drum; that's really a non issue I discovered. My oil tank still had a bunch of gummy oil on the side walls and about 1/2" of oil in the bottom. We cut it open and built a paper fire in it to get the oil started then it burned for almost an hour off the oil. Also personnaly, the more taps, the more sap, meaning I would personnaly boil the newest sap first and keep boiling till either I ran ran out of sap or time. Then I would pitch the remaining old sap and start new for the next time. This is just a personal oppion. I also wouldn't count on getting a quad and trailer through the snow till mid-late season unless you have very well packed trails or blown trails. You may be able to get just a quand and small tank through or a snowmobile with trailer on skis. Mind this all depends on what sort of snowfall you recive. Up here you would be hard pressed even with packed trails like snowmobile trails to get a quad and trailer through a bush.
psparr- THAT MIGHT BE A BIT MUCHB WEIGHT ON THE RACK! lol

[psparr]

It is too much weight. I only fill it half way. Trying to figure a trailer system. Last year our snow was bad. But I only had trouble on one hill.
We live in the tropics compared to you.