Is it time to talk about...

[Jebediah]

...fall tapping?

[unc23win]

Are you fall tapping? When do you plan on doing it?

[spud]

I was going to monkey around with some Fall tapping but now I changed my mind. My wife is going in for a major back surgery in early November and I need to set up my new woods before that happens. I may set out a few buckets though just to test sugar and GPT. I hope some Traders Fall tap and post their production.

Spud

[maplestudent]

I wonder how this works in respect to tree diameter guidelines. With the circumference of a 12" tree being roughly 38", if you place the next tap hole 2" to the side and keep going in the same direction every year, it basically takes you 19 years to go all the way around the tree, at which time you should have all new sapwood, back where you started 19 years ago. (at least that's how I interpret the guidelines....maybe I'm wrong).

of course, I'm assuming that you're tapping the same trees that you tap in the spring (could be wrong here too). so would you alternate groups of trees used for fall tapping so as not to overtap, or maybe use trees that are considerably larger.....or what? I'm trying to figure how this would work without overtapping.

[spud]

I wonder how this works in respect to tree diameter guidelines. With the circumference of a 12" tree being roughly 38", if you place the next tap hole 2" to the side and keep going in the same direction every year, it basically takes you 19 years to go all the way around the tree, at which time you should have all new sapwood, back where you started 19 years ago. (at least that's how I interpret the guidelines....maybe I'm wrong).

of course, I'm assuming that you're tapping the same trees that you tap in the spring (could be wrong here too). so would you alternate groups of trees used for fall tapping so as not to overtap, or maybe use trees that are considerably larger.....or what? I'm trying to figure how this would work without overtapping.

Some of the trees that I have tapped in the fall were reamed in January to see how much overall sap I would get. Other trees are only tapped in the fall and not in the spring. I don't want to tap a tree twice in the same year. What I have found is smaller trees give far less sap in the fall and the sugar is only about 1% at best. The larger trees (30 inch or better) will give a good amount of sap and the sugar will be 1.7-2.5%. I Fall tap around November 15th. My plan is to set up 100 taps just for Fall tapping using high vac. I will not be able to set this up this fall because of other things going on. I hope to get to it next year. I am doing this strictly for giggles and grins.

Spud

[unc23win]

I am going to try some fall tapping this year just for some experimenting. I am curious to find out how much sap they will yield and how long they will run. I am just going to try some that are around my yard on buckets that I can't easily tie into my mainlines. I plan to try some different spouts and maybe some reaming like Spud has done in the past. I probably will tap them spread out over time to see how they compare. More of an experiment of sorts.

If your wondering about tapping overtime PMRC published A Model of the Tapping Zone. Its a pretty cool document. http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/?Page=tappingguidelines.htm

[maplestudent]

Spud....I get what you're saying now.

Jared....thanks for the link. I was so busy last winter I hadn't noticed that model on the PMRC website.

[brookledge]

My thoughts towards fall tapping are if you have an area that is usually inaccessible in the spring due to mud or snow and normally goes un tapped then go for it. I'm sure there are areas that are remote and flat that cannot be set up with tubing. In the fall the old roads are still easy to travel since snow doesn't usually start to build up until later.
good luck to anyone who tries
Keith

[unc23win]

I had anchor bolt that I put in the other day and decided to move it so it left a hole. It seemed to be running pretty good yesterday. Maybe I'll put a spout in and see if I can collect the sap and get a reading.

[White Barn Farm]

I have tapped a few in the fall just for fun. I have an area that I don't tap in the spring and I have been toying with the idea of tapping those this fall. I am almost out of syrup to sell and with our tree and wreath season coming up I could use the product. Plus steam always draws a crowd. A busy time of year to try this but....
I'll keep you posted

[DrTimPerkins]

More of an experiment of sorts.

Climate change has shifted the spring tapping season earlier in the year. The same type of thing is happening in the fall (according to our models), such that the two very distinct (fall and spring) seasons are slowly getting closer and closer together. The question really is whether with good sanitation and good vacuum is it possible to tap in the fall and keep the tapholes viable enough so that we still get good yields in the spring, or at least get sugar yields that are higher overall by tapping in the fall.

So if we were designing an experiment to test this, what treatments would we want to compare.

1. Tap in fall, collect sap from fall through spring.
2. Tap in spring, collect sap in spring.
3. Tap in fall (with 1/4" spouts?), ream in spring (to 5/16" spouts?)

We could do some variations on this such as using CV spouts, sanitizing the taphole with something (ethanol) perhaps, reaming deeper, using a new spout when reaming, using a sanitizer when reaming?

This is definitely a study I have wanted to do for some time, but need to garner the resources to do it properly. I do anticipate doing at some point in the future (perhaps starting in the fall of 2015), so getting some opinions on what treatments would be most interesting would be helpful. Keep in mind that it is important to not have too many treatments, as the cost, time involved, and difficulty of the experiment go up greatly with the number of treatments, since we need to have an adequate sample size for each treatment.

So given all that....what treatments would you folks like to see done (and why)?

Of course if we wait long enough, climate change will keep pushing the fall and spring seasons together and the job of spanning the two seasons with one taphole will get easier. :)

[DrTimPerkins]

If your wondering about tapping overtime PMRC published A Model of the Tapping Zone. Its a pretty cool document. http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/?Page=tappingguidelines.htm

Thanks for the plug Jared. That work by Dr. Abby (van den Berg) is part of a much larger group of projects re-examining tapping guidelines. That study examines the effect from a "wounding" viewpoint. We are also looking at the effects of tapping on carbohydrate storage in maple trees (how much of the tree's resources are we removing and is it having any effect), the long-term effects of sap extraction on tree health and growth, and trade-offs between the number and depth of tapholes. I anticipate that we'll have everything completed in about another 3 yrs and all the work will be combined at that point.

[unc23win]

Your welcome. I was amazed by how much the drop length would change the tapping zone and its not any harder and not much more expensive to make longer drops.

I think that using 1/4" and then reaming to 5/16" or trying to make it the whole time with check valves are by far the most interesting options.

If people tap with check valves Jan 1 and they run until May 1 maybe they could tap them in the fall and make it? I guess it all depends on what the level of bacteria is in the fall. I thought it was a little early for fall tapping until I saw the sap yesterday.

Obviously the most attracting point to fall tapping beyond making more syrup would be that its much easier to walk in the woods and tap now than it is Jan-Feb. Which would be best if we could use the same taps or ream holes in a less labor intensive manner.

[DrTimPerkins]

Your welcome. I was amazed by how much the drop length would change the tapping zone and its not any harder and not much more expensive to make longer drops.

Yes, drop length is of critical importance in determining the size of the tapping band.

UVM PMRC was just awarded a grant from the North American Maple Syrup Council (the voluntary penny-per-container many people pay) to look at tapping below the lateral (using vacuum) as a strategy to increase the size of the tapping band. We'll actually have three different studies this coming spring (2015) looking at that using both 3/16" tubing and 5/16" tubing with and without CV spouts.

Thanks for your comments on possible fall tapping treatments. What do others think?

[Jebediah]

I have wondered if the tap-hole-deterioration clock stops ticking when tree is really thoroughly frozen.

[Cabin]

Just for kicks I think I will tap a few trees by the house and slow boil the sap on the woodstove. Make syrup and get some humidity into the house. Just have to dig up a few pans the right size.

[GeneralStark]

I have wondered if the tap-hole-deterioration clock stops ticking when tree is really thoroughly frozen.

It may slow somewhat but it certainly does not stop. The rate of tap hole closure will depend upon the sap collection method used, but microbes are extremely resilient and well-adapted.

[AdirondackSap]

The founder of the weather channel even said climate change is a crock along with 30 thousand other leading scientist.

[AdirondackSap]

I think its funny Al Gore running around in his big jet plane telling everyone to reduce the carbon footprint then owning 12 homes and having one home where the lights stay on all year long hhhhmm.

[AdirondackSap]

wasnt it global warming now its climate change bc they dont know anything

[AdirondackSap]

Last year was the 4th coldest winter on record and i had a poor sugaring season wheres the heat

[GeneralStark]

Making some popcorn....

[buckeye gold]

I'm going for it this fall. I started organizing the sugar shack today. I'm making a supply list and charging forward. I have a good many trees that are hard to get to in spring, so those are my experimental trees for fall and I'll pull those taps when weather dictates. I also have many deep north facing trees that run too late for my main season, some of those will get tapped too. I'll try to keep close records and post some data for you all.

[Cabin]

Just put 3 taps in by the house. Now to see what happens with this cold snap we are getting.

[unc23win]

I had a hole running pretty good on Monday I need to get a 7/16 spout and bucket under it and see if I can get some sugar readings.

[Cabin]

I didn't have anything running last night but it was warm the night before. 51 yesterday in the morning 25 today.

[GeneralStark]

We are having some logging done and I found this sapsicle on a recently cut log. The logs warmed up in the sun, started to drip, and then they froze. It tasted very sweet. Like a spring sapsicle.

10007

[unc23win]

That's the downside of having a dense maple forest some of them have to go whether it be selective logging or to make room for building something. I'm gonna try to get a few taps in this weekend looks like it might run a little next week.

[NhShaun]

MMmm sapsicles. I might venture out and tap a few trees this week. Who knows what will happen.

[Drew Pond Maple]

We are having some logging done and I found this sapsicle on a recently cut log. The logs warmed up in the sun, started to drip, and then they froze. It tasted very sweet. Like a spring sapsicle.

10007It just breaks my heart to see a maple cut down. :(
But after my 6 year old daughter tried a sapicle last spring,,,,well that's priceless

[GeneralStark]

It just breaks my heart to see a maple cut down. :(
But after my 6 year old daughter tried a sapicle last spring,,,,well that's priceless

I definitely don't like cutting maples either but we have a few areas where the maples are too dense, so we thinned some of the suppressed or poorly formed trees to let our crop trees thrive.

[buckeye gold]

I was figuring I would have to wait until late December to start, but with this last week's weather I may be able to start sooner. I have a welder coming Monday to do some work on my firebox and plan on getting supplies in the week after thanksgiving. I may put a couple sample taps out next week. For you guys that have taps out keep posting what your seeing.

[MapleMark753]

Well, we are late fall tapping some, and the good news is that we're at 1.9 percent sap. That's up from last falls tapping. The bad news is quantity, we're on all bags and its from a pint to a quart per tap, with a half dozen giving a gallon or so. Makes the plan to go to tubing and vaccum much more appealing. Hardly worth firing up the RO and the evap. At least these trees wont get tapped for regular season, and its a good experience. take care, Mark