Sap ladder help

[nicholastzito]

Our new sugarhouse is on the top of a slight hill. 3% slope, away from the sugarhouse (of course). The entire run of 200 potential taps is in an area of about 5-6 acres. The longest horizontal distance from the sugarhouse is roughly 600', with a vertical drop of 18'.

My question is, should we set up sap ladders? Will by delaval 75 be able to handle this? I might be able to work the layout as 1 main right near the sugarhouse with no need for a ladder, a second main going farther out with one ladder, and the third and final with 2-3 ladders?

Help would be greatly appreciated.

[GeneralStark]

Our new sugarhouse is on the top of a slight hill. 3% slope, away from the sugarhouse (of course). The entire run of 200 potential taps is in an area of about 5-6 acres. The longest horizontal distance from the sugarhouse is roughly 600', with a vertical drop of 18'.

My question is, should we set up sap ladders? Will by delaval 75 be able to handle this? I might be able to work the layout as 1 main right near the sugarhouse with no need for a ladder, a second main going farther out with one ladder, and the third and final with 2-3 ladders?

Help would be greatly appreciated.

Well BreezyHill is your man if you want to do sap ladders. He'll tell you all about it, in detail.

The question is, is this your hobby or are you trying to take this seriously and maximize your production? If you want to get the most sap possible, then don't use ladders and instead put your tank and releaser at the lowest point and run your mainlines down hill to your tank. Either run power to this spot for your vacuum pump and pump sap to your sugarhouse, or run a vac. line to your releaser from the sugarhouse, and power to the sap pump at your tank.

You won't produce as much with ladders as you will with conventional down slope mainlines.

You could also investigate the use of a reverse slope releaser, but this would be costly for 200 taps, or you could go with a sap lifter.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I dont think the delavel has enough cfm but could be wrong. the general is right breezy will know about the delavel.

[nicholastzito]

This is somewhere between hobby and commercial now. We have the ability to put up another 3-400 taps, but with two kids under two that's not happening anytime soon.

How much juice will I lose if I run power out to 600'? I may be able to find a middle point at 450', but even so I'm going to be losing a lot of juice over the course of all that copper.

Would it be more worth it to convert the vac motor to gas?

[nicholastzito]

My other thought would be to run 3/16 tubing down to a lower point and pump it up. I could use a gas powered pump for this. Unsure if I will still get the same production off of this. To me the more sap the better.

The downside is I already have the delaval setup, so I would have to retool it for our dairy goats, or trade/sell it for other equipment.

[nicholastzito]

Oh, just realized You said I could run the vac line all the way down there and use a gas powered pump to pump up to the sugarhouse. This seems fairly reasonable to me.

The only real question is will the delaval effectively pull more sap with a 600' vac line to the releaser than the 3/16 tubing with a vertical drop of 18'?

[GeneralStark]

You can certainly run a vac. Line and that is often cheaper than wire. You will want to use 1-1/4 inch pipe at the least for 600'. If you expand you could then run additional pipe.

It would also be worth running at least 1-1/4" pipe for your pump line.

I don't know anything about dairy pumps so can't help u there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BreezyHill]

Yes. Yes. That will work well.

Always remember that when laying tubing you are looking for the best way to get vacuum to the tap hole and your second concern should be how to get the sap to the sugar house with the least amount of labor and expense.

You could do this project on a D 73, the d 75 will just suck the lines done faster on startup and need some air circulation for cooling on warm days if you are going to run high vac. The larger the pump the more friction and mass to hold heat. The 75 is uniquely designed to dissipate heat with its inclusive motor mount on an iron frame that includes the oil reservoir. A simple box fan and a temp probe and PID from EBAY and you will have a wonderful setup. Add an oil reclaimer and you will not have oil vapor issues in the exhaust.

I hate to see people screw up ladders so as GS said I will give details.

You will want to invest in a good tool to get your slope right. I prefer a hand held level instrument over tripod instruments. The hand held unit is quick and supper handy in laying every tubing installation and other farm projects.9836 I use the one on the left the most as the operator can adjust the desired slope on the gauge. The center unit is much newer and reads the % slope at a given point. This unit is very useful when scoping out where to run a new line, but the wheel inside is very responsive to change and takes alittle longer to read. The unit on the left is great if you have a limited amount of slope and you have to have pin point accuracy in tubing height location.

My longest seasoned run on a ladder main line is about 1200' with 7 ladders for a total of 112' of risers. The tallest ladder is 18' and the shortest is 14'. I have an additional lateral that enters this main that has a 5-6' rise. I hate heights! Well actually it is the sudden stop at the end of the fall. The falling is a blast...I have done the drop of fear which was 196' at the Big E...what a rush. Not doing that again thou. :lol:

There are a few rules to ladder installation if you want them to work well, and apparently people can be confused as to what I am saying so if not sure ask. 30 years as a 4-H leader and I have never heard a stupid question.

I have seen pics of several ladders that didn't work and everyone had broken one or more of the basic rules. Here in the real world, applied science is what works


Rule #1 Size Matters. Each riser will only be able to handle a certain number of taps. I like to use 18 but have run as many as 26 with great results thru each riser.

Rule # 2 Main line (Mains) You will need to size the main accordingly. A great investment is Steve Childs book that contains the main line sizing charts. I only have his data sheets and not sure if that is all in the book. If something is missing I will share it with you happily. But, for the sake of education of the masses a 3/4" line at 2% slope has a capacity of 195 gallons per hour(GPH) and 1" is 330 gph. Peak Sap Flow is .2 gph per tap. So if you have 100 taps on the longest run (600') your peak flow will be 100 * .2 = 20 gallons of sap. The max vacuum transfer of the 3/4" main on 600' will be 4.5 Cubic Feet Per Minute(CFM) and tap carry capacity is 325. So you will have plenty of vacuum transfer and sap flow on a 3/4" Line.

To figure required vac transfer you take your cfm of the line for the distance, 600' of 3/4" and multiply it by 100 (taps) for a tight and well maintained system...you check it daily or every other day for leaks; or for a less well maintained system you will multiply by 50 (taps).
Leaks in a vacuum system is free air that enters into the system by way of damage to the lines from fallen branches, rodent damage or a lose fitting at a junction of a Y or spout. I no longer use tees on drops since a Y gives better vac transfer and sap inclusion to the 5/16 lateral.

If you have enough support trees to maintain a sag free line and are able to tension the tubing tight enough to eliminate sags then on a 3/4" line I often do not run a support wire. I use rapidtie to attach to support trees as it will not damage the tree, is adjustable and can be attached to the tree with aluminum nails to maintain a desired height.

Rule #3 Riser fitting orientation. This is possible the major factor in ladder failure. The spider or star fitting on the bottom of the riser must be on the bottom of the line. 9837 This is so that the sap goes down into the riser and is chased by air bubbles. In the pic you can see a 1" riser. This is a dry line. It was only meant to carry sap when the wet line or the sap conductor froze over the brook which is 150 feet back toward the bush. Problem was that the sap did not read the book and decided to surge into this line every few seconds. In a 1" line the sap will flow around the air bubble as the air speeds up the line...thus making it a poor riser design. Also when the sap hits the 90 degree elbow at the top more sap will drop down the line. I tried a sweeping angle at the top and that was even worse. So I added the check valve to see if that would possible help... with limited positive affect.
Note the black line feeding the ladder. Ladders will freeze a few minutes before a main without ladders, due to the injected air. Ladders also will run slightly warmer due to the sap having more surface to warm them due to their location per rule #4; and the speed of the moving sap keeps it from freezing as quickly as a main with a leak.

The top fitting of the riser must be on top so that gravity and the vacuum pulls the sap into the mains. Mix these orientations up and the ladder will fail. Have one wrong and it will fail.

Rule #4 Place the ladder in a sunny area on the south side of a tree or where it will get the most sun. Since the ladder will freeze every night placement of the ladder in a location that the tubing will be warmed by the sun is critical. Smaller 5/16 risers will thaw long before a 1" riser.
There is a theory that a ladder should have a flapper valve on the bottom to drain sap when vacuum is lost. I do not prescribe to this theory as I am not one to waste collected sap. I am planning to try and add a small tank that this sap could drain into and be recovered from after it thaws each day but next season will tell if this will work or not.

Rule #5 Air injection is a must for maximum efficiency. If you already have a few minor leaks this will be all you need; but if your system is tight you will not be able to move sap up the ladders as fast as your trees will produce it, and you will not get the vacuum to the taps as well either.

Unfortunately I have not figured the best way to explain this process as of yet. So I will try another way. Picture a glass bottle filled with sap. If you hook this bottle to your vacuum system with an air tight connection you will get some of the sap to go up a 12' pipe. Now if you were to puncture the bottom of the bottle with a 28 gauge hypodermic needle you will now be able to remove all the sap rather quickly. The bottle is your trees and tubing system. The needle is your air injector. I use a 1/8" brass needle valve at the end of my ladders run. To this I attach a vac gauge that has an additional needle valve to get the air adjustment just right. The way to tell it is right is during peak flow you will open and close the valve to get the highest vacuum reading possible. To far and the gauge will drop, to little and it will also drop. When it is just right you will have a sustained higher reading then when open to much or too little. What you are doing is floating the sap on a tiny air bubble; because 1" of vacuum will lift sap 12" but it will lift air 1000s times further and faster.

Currently I do not get the production from the ladder lines that I get out of my mains that run directly to the sugar house. These lines currently lose one to two hours of low production time each day. This will results in a lose of as much as 5-10% production; but if they were not taped at all then I would lose 100% of their production or for my farm this would be in the area of 800 taps. In a good year this would be about 376 gallons. Currently we are in a retubing phase of all our bushes. Two years ago I had a tubing failure and did not have time to get all the trees retubed. So in another summer we should have the entire farm back on line with the most productive design possible.

If a few modifications that I am working on for this coming season work then I will have these taps nearly at 100% production potential by eliminating these lost hours. I currently have figured out how to get vacuum past ladders #4 & #5 to the furthest taps. This was a major challenge due to after ladder four what worked on the previous ladders was not working the same for some reason. If a few new design experiments pan out I will have figured a way to decrease the temperature change that ladders create while reducing the cost that is associated with ladders as an added benefit.

For the number of taps you are talking about and the pump you have...provided it is in good shape, you will have good production. IF you need additional pics let me know. If you need to rebuild the pump and/or want to increase its vacuum & capacity I have rebuilt several of them and can make them pull 28+".

Let me know when you are ready to design your pump to releaser and manifold system. There are a few things you will want to do to maximize your systems production and it starts at the pump and every step there after.

Remember these things... Size Matters in the real world...The system is only as strong as its weakest link...measure twice and cut once.

I am here to help...There are no stupid questions... so no matter how dumb you think it is ask. It is better to ask than to correct an error.

Ben

[nicholastzito]

Ben,

I've never used vacuum, and haven't even really looked at some when touring someone else's property because our previous home didn't warrant the situation. Thus, I know very little to nothing about them. The CFPA grouped up the the CT maple producers association and I took their class for some CEUs for my foresters license. This is the last time I saw vacuum setups. I do have the manual that Ohio state (or whomever) put it out.

More pics would be great, in fact I can only see the one on the top of the ladder. The others won't load.

Unsure what shape the d75 is in. I've seen it run, but have not slapped a vac gauge on it. Rebuilding it might be nice to do now, and I won't have to deal with it down the line. Also, if you can help with a reclaimer build that would be greatly appreciated.

I got a manifold / releaser setup when I purchased the d75. I'll post some pics so we can start working on that as well.

As for the flapper valve, could I slap a few containers under them and empty them the following day? Obviously what you're going for sounds like a more permanent solution, would love to hear how that turns out.

Just for fun I'll pull up one of my topos so you can get an idea of what the lay of the land is.

Glad to have some help with this.

[Moser's Maple]

here's some pics for you.
1st is short rise to make it to 2nd pic
9856
2nd pic is 9 feet rise (around 45-50 on this lift)
9857
3rd pic is bottom line star orientation to do a life on a ladder I just completed today
9858
4th is the the 12 foot ladder I completed today
9859
both ladders are only picking 45-50 taps right now, but I add a 3rd six way to most recent ladder to prove or disprove I'll be able to get better vac transfer through ladder and try to avoid having to have a leak in system up stream

[adk1]

What is the red tubing? Never seen red mainline before

[Moser's Maple]

it's actually orange. it's old maple flex tubing. the dates on the mains were sept 06 and nov 06. I've replace all of these except for these 2 because I didn't want to invest the money in new just to pick up my 45-50 taps on the bottom side of a ladder.

[adk1]

Gotchya. Thanks for the pics of the sap ladders...u know what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words! :)

[BreezyHill]

9861

One of the most important parts of a ladder is the top connection. 2% slope away is good, but a short steep drop of the first foot is best. This will counter act the tendency for risers to back flow due to high speed sap flow shooting across a 6 way star. The other remedy for this is to loosen the tee or end elbow that the offending star is angled to balance the air bubbles to all risers as equally as possible. Once the star is balanced with flow it should never need readjustment.

To achieve a short steep drop attach the tubing end higher on the support tree that is past the tension grip.

Gas vs electric power: Elec is less costly, more efficient, less maintance, and more reliable. Can easily be attached to inexpensive controls to start at a preset temperature. Many have gone to great lengths to bring electricity to their operations to use electric power.

For 3 long years I operated gas delivery pump for liquid feed deliveries...when the opportunity to convert power source it was a quick move and life became much easier.