number of taps on a wet dry system?

[red maples]

How many taps can a wet dry system with 3/4" wet and 1" Dry handle both ideally and just getting by maxing out the system? just curiuos to see if I need to go slightly bigger or not.

[GeneralStark]

Depends upon your slope, length of wet/dry lines, layout and length of lateral mainlines, and how conservative you want to be. I have about 350 on a 1" wet and dry line at 500' length with 6 lateral mainlines and will likely max that section out at 400- 450 taps, but I like things oversized. Slope is 1-3%.

By the line loss charts, even with decent slope, a 3/4 inch line is maxed at 250 taps without a dry line at 500'. A dry line will help, so probably 500 taps at 500'.

[BreezyHill]

I was provided with a simple chart from Steve Childs. Provide the length of the run and the minimum slope of the line and I can tell you the number of taps the dry line can support and the maximum tap capacity of the mainline relative to peak flow. The minimum slope is the transfer bottle neck so if you have 6%on the majority but only 2% near the collection point there is your bottle neck and limiting factor. Even if he flattest area is only 50 feet it is a major limitation.

I will also need to know the size of the pump...if you have a pump that is only 3 cfm at your desired vacuum level, this too will affect your maximum tap count.

Ben

[nymapleguy607]

The distance of your dry line and the size of your pump will be your main design constrant. Your total dry line length needs to include the distance from your pump to the extractor, then to your taps, a 90 degree connector adds about 25' to your total distance for each 90 you use. For example I have an 8cfm pump and then 1200' of dry line( 500to the releaser and 700 to the taps. I used the charts and I believe is said I should have 6cfm at the end of the line. So if you figure 1cfm per hundred taps you could technically do 600 taps.

[BreezyHill]

607 is correct if you are using the same size pipe to connect your pump to your releaser. Since many people have more than one line connected to the releaser currently, or plan future expansion, it is best to connect the pump thru a 3" or even 4" pvc line...provided you are not going long distances, but that is another topic.

90 degree elbows do add some frictional losses and is the reason for using the sweep elbows or better yet, is the use of a 6" straight section between two 45 elbows to make a 90 turn which has minute affects on transferal rates in highly viscous fluids so for air transfer, it will be none, as would a sweeping bend of the main line that can be accomplished by using two tension grips to a single anchor point.
9835

The sheer size of the 3" is also beneficial as a balance tank if using a mechanical releaser. The balance tank will minimize the duration of the drop in vacuum level and reduce the chance of surges of the main line. Yet another thread.

If looking at the Steve Child's original data chart, remember that it is for 1" line and you need to reduce the numbers by the volume differential and not the size differential of the two pipes. size of a 3/4" is 75% of a 1", volume differential is 56% as I recall.

The math can be a trick thing.

[red maples]

holy geez.... I was just looking to see if I could get away with 600 taps before I need to go bigger.

I had a big pump. 19CFM so its way bigger than I need but it was pretty cheap and it runs like a champ on a 1 HP motor. (Retired lab vaccuum) I have 1.5" PVC going only 10 feet from the pump to the releaser and there are I think 3 90's in there. as well as a moisture trap of course. I have a very flat area there is some slope on some of it but the majority is pretty flat at 1-1.5% slope. the first verticle side mains start about 75ft from the releaser and that first 75ft is 1 inch after that its 3/4inch. and like I said 1 inch dry above that. so they are pretty close I could probably even run those first 75 directly into the releaser whci I might do this year it has 75+- taps on it. the entire wet dry mainline system is roughly 400 feet long as the property is MUCH wider than it is long. There are 5 side mains all 3/4 inch the most on any of them is 150 taps which is fine.

There are a couple of sap ladders in there too but still averaging 26.5" Hg at the releaser at each tie point for the side mains and generally a slight loss of less than 1" hg at the ends of the lines with the ladder on them. I would love to get rid of the sap ladders but like I said its pretty flat.

I have approx 500 taps on it now and last year was NOT a good year to measure a full good run for obvious cold reasons. never got any REALLY good runs last year.

So thats it. what do you all think.

[unc23win]

You should be fine with with 600 taps with 3/4 wet and 1" dry. I checked it in the Steve Childs book just because I was curious. I think it said with 3/4" wet and 1" dry it was good for over 600 taps up to 2900' something like that. From what you said as far as vacuum loss I think you have plenty of pump. As you said the 75 you could maybe run right to the releaser which you would only need 1 line no need for a dry. I have 2 lines I did that way one has 130 ish no problem. No need to over complicate the problem.

[BreezyHill]

Brad,
I will do the math out so it will be easy for you to check at your main line junctions; if you are concerned about capacity or where you will need to expand for future growth.

A 19 cfm pump will transfer 11 cfm at the end of the 1" Line 400', at 300' = 12, at 200' = 14, and 17 cfm at 100'.

Since you used the 1.5" to the releaser and the moisture trap will act as a balance tank you have given yourself a leg up.

Tap capacity of the dry line is 980 on your 1" line at the 400'.

Now this is where we run into to the problem. The Gallons per Hour (GPH) flow rate of a 3/4" line is 195 gallons at 2% slope. I hope your closer to the 1.5% slope than the 1%. If closer to 1% your capacity will be around 100 GPH and 143 for 1.5%.

The peak flow of the taps is .2 GPH per tap or .2*600 or 120 GPH. But don't panic!

Since you have the dry line and the capacity for vacuum is an excess to your requirements. The dry line will carry the excessive peak flow. GPH for the 1" on 2% slope is 330. so around 170 for 1% slope. The 20 GPH overage of the 3/4" is only about 12% of the 1" capacity so you should be fine on cfm transfer on the dry line.

If you whip in your lateral lines to the W/D system part or possible a majority of the last laterial will transfer to the dry line during your peak runs.

One trick would be to use a 3" pvc vertical manifold on some of your further distal laterals. Reason for this is to transfer some of the vacuum to the wet line from the dry line and increase the cfm numbers past the point that the wet line is at maximum capacity. Remember a line full of sap has low vacuum transfer capabilities when compared to an empty line.

YOur observation on ladders is spot on. On my 7 ladder mainline with 112' of risers my vacuum is not affect much from the releaser to the last ladder. The CFM is definitely reduced after the 3rd ladder. To counter act this I added a dry line to the system to past ladder #3. I solved the issue but then I doubled the taps on the line and am back to adding an additional wet line. This one will be blue so that I can lower the sap temp. This line runs along a brook for 1000' and crosses in one location. Over the brook it freezes 45 minutes before the bush stops, on average; thus to get the system thawed faster I am forced to run black mains on the last 600' before the sap enters the sugar house. Ladders also raise your sap temp slightly since they are located in the sun for quicker thaw times. Blue is also easier to monitor ladder performance so I have started adding a blue section just prior to the ladder. I cant fly a line larger than 1" due to the lake of a good way to lash it at my elevations. I might have a cure for that thanks to a friend that retired from AT&T. A Lasher and a 75' rope would be a great investment but they are rather pricey used even.

I have a new ladder design that should have the ladders flowing at speeds and efficiency of the mains and have less affects on cfm. It has worked well in a test and next season will be the field trial.

So as long as you are watching your flow and vac levels past the ladders you will be ok, but very tight on line capacity and with vac transfer if the dry line runs more than 20% full.

I have a few other tricks that can help if you run into an issue.

Best wishes!

Ben

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Breezy,

Your saying that 600 taps will run at 120 gpm during peak flow? There is no way this is possible.
Neil

[BreezyHill]

Good catch Neil! Thanks
Ben

[WMF]

You will be fine with 600 taps as long as your lines have at least 1% pitch and NO SAGS when full . Put in lots of supports in the flat sections. I find most capacity charts and formulas to find the magic size pipe are useless in the real world if you keep vacuum leaks under control.
The actual installation and maintenance is where to make sap. No sags and leaks will trump bigger pipe every time.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

You will be fine with 600 taps as long as your lines have at least 1% pitch and NO SAGS when full . Put in lots of supports in the flat sections. I find most capacity charts and formulas to find the magic size pipe are useless in the real world if you keep vacuum leaks under control.
The actual installation and maintenance is where to make sap. No sags and leaks will trump bigger pipe every time.
You are 100% correct on this statement.

[BreezyHill]

Actually the statement is flawed.

#1 It contains most not all. This is not most charts, there is a great deal of time and science that is contained in this chart and it takes into account nearly all factors that will affect flow. So it is a comprehensive chart.

#2 The statement says to control leaks...obviously you over looked the factor that the producers has ladders on the system. Ladders increase efficiency with the incorporation of controlled air injection. Thus a slight leak is a good thing and is used to make the ladder work better. Too large of a leak is when your vacuum level after a ladder is reduced. Leaks after a ladder will actually increase your vacuum level in the real world up to a certain point due to the science that sap can be lift about 12" with every inch of vacuum; while air can be lifted hundreds of times further with the same inch of vacuum.

#3 Sap production is relative to your vacuum measurement. Yes maintance is a key that goes into maximum production of the bush; but to say that no sags and maintance is better than a larger pipe is lunacy. If this were the case everyone would still be using 1/2" & 3/4" tubing for all main lines and just keep it tight and sag free. The science fact is that there is only so many gallons per hour able to flow thru a specific size pipe. The flatter the pitch the slower the flow and the greater the frictional affect on the flows speed and volume. The simple fact is if your system is built to produce and carry only a quantity of 120 then how will you carry 150? Answer is you wont... you will only produce the 120. That little extra every run is how people hit those .5 & .6 gallons per tap numbers for a season.

#4 When a system is under sized from the start, it will not have the capacity for growth in the future nor will it be able to keep up with the above average flow that happens typically once a season.

Unfortunately in the real world Size Matters.! BUT I will admit that no sags and leaks is a good thing! LOL

Keep reaching for the increased goal and bettering your production thru implementation of new technology, attention to detail, and maintance, the sooner you will be able to reach those goals of high production.

"God Helps those that help themselves" Benjamin Franklin

[DrTimPerkins]

While I generally agree with the majority of what you've written, the line:


....Leaks after a ladder will actually increase your vacuum level in the real world up to a certain point due to the science that sap can be lift about 12" with every inch of vacuum; while air can be lifted hundreds of times further with the same inch of vacuum.

...is somewhat misleading and needs some clarification. By carefully reading this and thinking about it I think I understand what you are trying to say, and agree IF YOU ARE ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE VACUUM LEVEL BEYOND THE LADDER. Basically, if the system is so tight that sap builds up in the pipe beyond the ladder such that air cannot efficiently move through the ladder in some way (and carry sap along with it), then vacuum beyond the ladder will be lower (less good) than it would be if you have a small controlled leak allowing more efficient air movement through the ladder (better). It is a very fine balance, and will change somewhat depending upon flow conditions.

People should NOT interpret this to mean that vacuum beyond the ladder can be improved beyond that found in the tubing system before the ladder and NOT take it that a ladder with a controlled leak will improve your vacuum and efficiency system-wide. It will definitely NOT do that.

[unc23win]

People should NOT interpret this to mean that vacuum beyond the ladder can be improved beyond that found in the tubing system before the ladder and NOT take it that a ladder with a controlled leak will improve your vacuum and efficiency system-wide. It will definitely NOT do that.

Which is why many do not use a controlled leak because it is not worth hindering the rest of the system correct?

[DrTimPerkins]

Which is why many do not use a controlled leak because it is not worth hindering the rest of the system correct?

Much depends upon how the system is configured and operated, but in a vacuum tubing system, a leak is a leak is a leak, meaning that your vacuum pump has to get that air out of the system in order to maintain a good vacuum level. On a ladder, a controlled leak will improve movement of sap through the ladder, but can (and usually does) have some amount of impact on overall system efficiency. If your system is very well designed with adequate pipe size and plenty of CFM, and the leak is well controlled, then a ladder can have a reasonably minimal impact....but it will not improve the efficiency of the total tubing system.

A sap ladder (in my opinion) is a compromise. If you want the sap from those trees that you would not otherwise be able to reach, then a ladder may be your only reasonable option. To minimize the detrimental effects, you better make sure you do everything right though. The better alternative is to avoid using them (if that is possible).

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Let me start by saying that I depend on the production of maple syrup in our operation as a MAJOR portion of my income. It is this simple; If I don't make enough syrup than my bills don't get paid. Having said this, I am constantly looking for ways to improve our setup and gathering all the info I can; either by going to seminars, talking to people in the business with knowledge, or on the internet. I agree that a well designed system, properly sized lines, no sags, and a virtually leak-free tubing system all go hand in hand to produce the most sap possible during a given year. Based on my observations and experience in this industry, If I had to choose between all lines sized by the charts or a tight system, I would go with the tight system hands down. But by saying this, I am not suggesting that you should not size your lines correctly.

Neil

[unc23win]

Let me start by saying that I depend on the production of maple syrup in our operation as a MAJOR portion of my income. It is this simple; If I don't make enough syrup than my bills don't get paid. Having said this, I am constantly looking for ways to improve our setup and gathering all the info I can; either by going to seminars, talking to people in the business with knowledge, or on the internet. I agree that a well designed system, properly sized lines, no sags, and a virtually leak-free tubing system all go hand in hand to produce the most sap possible during a given year. Based on my observations and experience in this industry, If I had to choose between all lines sized by the charts or a tight system, I would go with the tight system hands down. But by saying this, I am not implementing that you should not size your lines correctly.

Neil

Exactly right Neil.

Let us not forget that the original question by Brad was could he add 100 taps to an existing 500 tap run with a 3/4" wet and 1" dry. I think he asked for opinions and not textbook calculations. I agree that there are various factors that should be considered when setting up the system from the start, however that's not the case its already set up he is adding to it. My opinion is that he can add the 100 any way he wants to and he probably will be fine he. He is loosing less than 1" after his ladders, which tells me his pump is more than capable. Most of us in this situation myself included would add on and not give it another thought.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Exactly right Neil.

Let us not forget that the original question by Brad was could he add 100 taps to an existing 500 tap run with a 3/4" wet and 1" dry. I think he asked for opinions and not textbook calculations. I agree that there are various factors that should be considered when setting up the system from the start, however that's not the case its already set up he is adding to it. My opinion is that he can add the 100 any way he wants to and he probably will be fine he. He is loosing less than 1" after his ladders, which tells me his pump is more than capable. Most of us in this situation myself included would add on and not give it another thought.

I agree. I think he will be fine if he keeps the leaks to a minimum.

[GeneralStark]

Exactly right Neil.

Let us not forget that the original question by Brad was could he add 100 taps to an existing 500 tap run with a 3/4" wet and 1" dry. I think he asked for opinions and not textbook calculations. I agree that there are various factors that should be considered when setting up the system from the start, however that's not the case its already set up he is adding to it. My opinion is that he can add the 100 any way he wants to and he probably will be fine he. He is loosing less than 1" after his ladders, which tells me his pump is more than capable. Most of us in this situation myself included would add on and not give it another thought.

Agreed. But, if he wanted to be conservative he could also replace the 3/4" wet line with 1" and re-use the 3/4" elsewhere in his expansion given that he has low slope and is likely close to maxing out the 3/4" in a big run. And, if he has a sag somewhere, the 1" may help out a bit.

SUre he is set up but IMO, a tubing system is not permanent and as you add on and figure out more about your situation and what may work best, you can re-configure things.

[red maples]

Thanks for all the input. I work pretty hard at keeping it leak free. Is it perfect?... nah but I do my best. I have vacuum gauges at each side main junction and at each end with valves at each junction as well to pinpoint leaks. I do use controlled leaks at each ladder. Like the Doc. said its a fine line getting the flow correct. and it can change at different flow rates. Ideally it would be more efficient to have a separate tank with a separate releaser at the end and pump it back to the main tank to pick up the farthest lines and maybe I will do that someday but for now it is what it is.

Like everyone improvements are in stages with appropriate funds and I know that you need sap first but last year I was still using flat filters and it was tough getting everything filtered (first year with RO. ran out of money on up grades). So this year a filterpress is a must!!! not only for syrup but keeping the flue pan cleaner man lots of niter faster boiling concentrate.

anyway another 100 taps would most likely max out my woods completely with an occational missed straggler here and there. I will probably run that first 75 and maybe the second line right into the releaser this will free up more energy for the outer lines and make things more effiecient. but of course that will be at the end of januaury before I start tapping!!!

Thanks again everybody.