Logging the Sugarbush

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Hello,

I would like to get some feedback from people with more experience around logging in the sugarbush. The question for me now is do I have a logger come in and just take care of it all. As in, do it all at once, vs. my pick and peck approach. Pretty much I don't think I will ever make a dent. I'm working on about 100 acres with no real equipment (i.e. no tractor:cry:). I currently have about 20-30 acres of it run with tubing. The thought is to have a professional with the whole shabang, chipper and all come in and make the other 70 acres into nicer sugarwoods. Now they are a mix of Ash, Hemlock, Yellow Birch, Beech, some white Birch and some pine and spruce. I want to get most of that out so I can let the sugars and soft maples flourish. I know it will shock the maples and I can wait a year or two before tapping.

The hope would be to leave 30-40% other species, mixed and mostly hardwood.

What have been peoples experiences with doing this and if they had it to do over, would they?

Also wondering about loggers. Personally I trust them about as far as I can throw them, and if you've met some loggers, you would know they are hard to throw very far. I was wondering what a favorable contract might look like for the landowner?

Thanks for any information.

Ben

[rayi]

Did it and would do it different if I could. Might try to see if local extension office has some one to help advise. Be with the person who comes out and with the loger. After the logger leaves his mark and then leaves pull back some leafs and mark a big root. Then when they are done make sure they didn't take any un marked tree. Also make sure you know where they live so you can sue the **** out of them when they cut more than bought or trash your other trees. When they did mine they came in one day when I was at work and ruined the woods for seveal years and there are still spots that are bare.

[cjmiller272]

U hire a forester, foresters oversee the whole process, kinda like a realtor does for home sales. U first meet with forester and discuss your needs, they take care of the rest. Hiring markers, estimating quantities, sending out bids to loggers and getting u paid and making sure you are happy.

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

Be carefull thinnig the maples too quickly. If you open them up on more then 1 or 2 sides they can get stunted and may never recover. Ideally you should thin every 5 years, but it isn't practical with tubing in the woods. Definitely hire a forester and do your own research also.

[madmapler]

I agree with the forester idea. They know who to hire based upon your situation and a logger is more likely to adhere to the rules because his reputation is at stake. Its likely he'll want to maintain a relationship with the forester whereas the typical Joe landowner is a one time deal.... Get all you can. I'm not saying all loggers are bad but you may not find out until its too late unless you know a good one.

[PerryW]

It's best to go with a smaller operator and a cable skidder (if you can still find any). They do less damage.

ALso, try to avoid logging during the spring and late spring when the bark comes off easily.

As mentioned, avoid over-thinning as too much sun will cause sun-scald to trees that are used to the shade.

[maple flats]

Definitley hire a forester, and do not use one the logger supplies. It's all a matter of who the forester is working for. The forester will ask what your goals are, mention all your goals, not just maple. Then the logger will mark the trees and solicit bids. The forester will supervise the entire process. While you will pay for the forester, it will be money well spent, and the logging will be done right. Sometimes it may cost you less than not hiring a forester, because you won't have to fix things done wrong. There are different methods of paying the forester. I prefer paying by the hour rather than a % of the logging contract. I feel that this method keeps the forester better focused on your goals.
A forester will likely have you remove all harvestable Ash (since they will soon die) but will likely not remove all other non maples. Mono culture invites too many pests that are not good for the maples. Also, as mentioned above, the cut will not thin the maples too radically, opening not more than 2 sides, then opening the other 2 on the next logging cycle, in 5-10 years.

[wiam]

I agree with finding a good forester. Talk to locals that have had a thinning done to find one. I would get it into "Land Use". You will need a forester for that anyway.

[TonyL]

Another vote for hiring a forester. I think it's time and money well spent.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Thanks you all, that is just the information I am looking for. I will consult with a forester, and put him on hourly during the logging operation. My friend is having his woods cut now and I went there the other day. It was clean of everything but the maples. I like the operation the logger had with a chipper. It seems thought you are maximizing your $$ when everything that is garbage is chipped. However, the logger may have taken too much.

I knew it was bad to open up more than two sides since it shocks the tree, what I didn't know was about the sun burning on the bark, the logging in the spring that removes more bark, the cable skidder doing less damage and that they may never recover if you cut too much. That is why I love the trader. The Forester is good advice. I will make sure to go that route with a Forester, logging in the fall or winter, and a more progressive logging plan to allow the trees to adapt to the cutting better. I will report back after the project is done.

Thanks again,
Ben

[sugaringman85]

Its so sad to see that just a couple of bad people have ruined my industry. I am a sugar maker and a logger. It truly makes me sad that people have gotten screwed over by the crooks of our industry. There are good honest loggers out there that want to do the right thing for the forest, do as little damage as possible, and make money for the land owner. I would not recommend hiring a company with a chipper. When you drag whole trees, and when I say whole trees, think about large oak trees being dragged through the woods and having the crowns hit everything on the way out. There is too much residual damage done in a whole tree chipping operation. Small chainsaw operations with a cable or grapple work well, they can snake out trees without going to every single stump. They leave the brush in the trails and in the woods to help compaction and keep the nutrients in the woods. Another style of cutting that I have seen a couple of sugar makers use is a cut to length operation. These types of operations can be minimally invasive to the woods. The trees are cut and processed in the woods and hauled out by a forwarder. All of the brush and tops are laid down in the trails so there is very little compaction to the woods roads. Also the forwarder can pick up the tops and brush when they are done with trails and fill in wet or soft spots to prevent mud holes from starting.

It is also a good idea if you don't know or trust any loggers to hire a forester, especially one that has done sugarbush thinnings before. Dont hire the first one you find, interview a couple. Good luck, and don't hate loggers!

[pmack]

Definitely hire a logger and log in the winter when the bark is tight to the tree !! If you log in spring, summer o fall, the bark will get rubbed off from skidding next to precious maples

[tuckermtn]

I will put my disclaimer right out front. I spent 10 years as a professional logger in NH, and still work in the forestry industry in NH. I treated landowners fairly and worked with them to meet or exceed their expectations. And at 160 lbs, not sure how far you could throw me...

a word of caution about hiring a forester in Vermont. Vermont does not have any forester licensing requirements, and so anyone can hang their shingle out and call themselves a forester. Defininetly check references and check out past jobs that he or she has overseen. I am sure there are foresters and loggers in Vermont who have done very good work in sugarbushes, but I can provide references of a very good forester from SW NH who has done a ton of work for 10K and 60K tap operations. He may not want to oversee a job in Duxbury Vt but I think he would be willing to be part of the marking and layout process.

also consider having a UVM Cooperative Extension County forester walk you woodlot if you have not done so already. They can be an excellent source of information. In NH, I refer to Cooperative extension foresters as the "gateway drug" to the forest products industry as they often get landowners who might not otherwise consider doing active forest management to think about doing a harvest for firewood, income generation, wildlife, or sugarbush management.

and I would also caution you from making general statements about the trust-worthyness (and size) of loggers. There are many very professional operations around the Northeast that do excellent work and meet or exceed the landowners goals and expectations. They go about their business everyday and you rarely hear about their satisfied clients. Like every industry - teachers, lawyers, politicians, etc. - the ones who do poor work and violate the laws are the ones you hear about in the newspaper.

[GeneralStark]

Great advice here. I would also suggest contacting the UVM extension and having one of their foresters walk the woods with you. The more you can educate yourself about what is going on in your woods and the assets you actually have, the better off you will be in the long run. I would also suggest contacting the Chittenden County forester for recommendations for contracting foresters and loggers. It is true that in VT you do not need to be certified to practice forestry, but the county foresters are very experienced and will have good recommendations.

I am in a similar situation presently as we are planning to have some logging done this fall to harvest some hemlock, ash and oak for building material for our future home. Fortunately my wife is a forester, but unfortunately the logger we were hoping to have do the job just retired. He used a forwarder and chainsaw and had an excellent reputation. We are having another guy with a skidder come look at the job as he has good references as well.

I would also suggest being careful with chipper operations. I have seen several sugarbush thinnings in the area where they took every tree but a maple and chipped all the tops and anything not a saw log. It looked clean except for all the skidding scars and the associated erosion, but is probably not the best outcome for the land owner. One school of thought in forest ecology is a clean logging job is a bad logging job as you should see all the slash and tops left in the woods to enrich the soil. I think the suggestion of using a cable skidder in a sugarbush is good. Cut to length systems are good as well but can be hard to find. Maintaining at least 25% non maple is a good idea for disease and pest resistance.

[ToadHill]

I agree with Sugaringman85, we shouldn't be bashing all loggers because of a few bad ones. That said, to me the issue is less about honesty and more about the potential damage to your sugarbush. You can find an honest logger, but can you find one that is willing to take the time necessary to do the job you need done? Many loggers can do a good job logging, but a sugarbush shouldn't be viewed as a log job. To a commercial logger time is money and they have bills to pay. They can't always afford to do the things that are required to avoid residual damage to your stand. Taking the time to fall trees where they will cause the least damage and then taking the time to skid things without running over or close to other trees is a large part of what makes for a good job. Sometimes you have to work around a 6" maple that's the future of your bush rather than run over it to get to a tree you want. Sometimes you've got to buck up a tree in the woods to avoid skidding damage. A logger who works by himself with a small cable skidder can do it if you make a deal with him that makes it worth it. A small dozer on frozen ground can be effective also. The best though is a horse logging operation. They're hard to find though and it takes more time. Definitely do it when the ground is frozen or at least dry. Also, the bark on maples stops slipping by the end of June, so I wouldn't worry about that after that point. Lastly, find a forester that has experience with sugaring. Not every forester does and the approach isn't the same as for timber management. Good luck.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Let me start with clarifying that I don't think all loggers are bad. They are no different than a sugarmaker in many ways. Just like a sugarmaker, they love to be in the woods. Except when they see a giant Maple, they see money in cutting the tree, where I see money in keeping the tree. Also, I was joking about how far I could throw a logger. Of course I am a big guy, so I could throw 160 lbs at least 5-10 ft.

I have had some bad experiences personally with a logger where I said don't cut this, and then to come back the next day and those trees are gone. Just hard to stop someone when they only see $$ signs.

I like the idea of using UVM and seeking a licensed Forester with experience in sugarbush management.

I was at my friends again today where his logging operation with full tree removal is going on. The woods are clean, but as many have pointed out, the trees were scared and the forest floor looked in pain. Bare and ready for erosion.

Being that I'm in no hurry, maybe I can wait til the winter. By then I can get the right forester and logging operation set up.

Great advice, and no offense meant to you loggers out there.

Ben

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

After my woods was thinned out, I rented a Bobcat with a forestry mulcher to mulch the tops. I didn't have the issue of dragging the tops out with this method, and it left the mulch in the woods where it was needed. If you have a lot of rocks, it may not work well. I am going to be renting one again in a few weeks. you can view a forestry mulcher in action on youtube.

[tuckermtn]

to follow up on Toad Hill's comments, I did a job for a fellow Trader in his sugarbush with the tubing up and we agreed on a per hour rate for my services (hand cutting, cable skidder). Worked for me as I couldn't get the usual production working around mainline, etc. The sale of the logs more than paid for my services so I think everyone won on that one...

and yes to buffalo creeks suggestion as well - I used to run a tracked skid-steer with a Fecon mower. You could rent one and mulch tops along where you plan to run lines in your bush. But it doesn't like rocks too much...
But if you are working with CTL a lot of the slash gets run over and compacted so you are ahead of the game there...

[PerryW]

Actually, Eric, that's the way I had my sugarbush logged. I paid $80 per hour to a logger friend with his cable skidder. I ended up with 80 cords of firewood which I bucked up, split and sold. I also paid him $15 per thousand to deal with saw logs (cut them to length and set up the trucking to the mill). I paid the trucking got all the money from the mill for sawlogs.

[maple flats]

Another problem with leaving the woods clean is that there is little regeneration. New seedlings need physical protection to survive. A healthy woods has brush covering the ground. In the spaces among the brush where new growth seedlings sprout, far more survive because the deer and other critters don't eat as many. Once a young tree reaches a certain height, the critters generally don't eat the tops, but rather the tender tips off limbs. This allows the trees to grow up above hungry deer and such. A forest with little or no regrowth is an unhealthy woods. Those "clean" jobs are not good for the future of the forest.

[ennismaple]

Another problem with leaving the woods clean is that there is little regeneration. New seedlings need physical protection to survive. A healthy woods has brush covering the ground. In the spaces among the brush where new growth seedlings sprout, far more survive because the deer and other critters don't eat as many. Once a young tree reaches a certain height, the critters generally don't eat the tops, but rather the tender tips off limbs. This allows the trees to grow up above hungry deer and such. A forest with little or no regrowth is an unhealthy woods. Those "clean" jobs are not good for the future of the forest.

Agreed. My father used to burn the tops (in an open field in the winter) but we now limb them where they fall to create habitat for the critters and to put some nutrients back into the soil. It's a PITA when you walk over one of the snow covered brush piles in the winter and sink up to your waist in snow!

[GeneralStark]

We just had some logging done in our woods. We had several loggers look at it, and in the end went with a guy with a bit more experience, a tractor, and a good reputation. We primarily had a bunch of sawlogs taken out, but also had him do some thinning of some of our sugarwoods. It generally turned out well, but there was a bit more residual stand damage than we had hoped for. Probably about 10-15% of the maple crop trees have some basal scarring from skidding. We know some was to be expected, as those areas were quite tight, but there were several trees he could have easily avoided.

We will do more thinning ourselves in the future, but I think this was the last time we will have a logger come in. Mainly because are woods are young and just need time to grow, but there is certainly some risk in having someone else log your woods.

[unc23win]

I have been doing some thinning myself basically cutting out trees for firewood mostly ash before installing lines. I have scarred a few maples in the process it is one those easier said than done things. Obviously I am taking it slower than a logger would be which helps, but all it takes in one to fall a little off or bounce around while skidding.

I look at trees as I do people some die young and some die old. There are some you think are healthier because you try to take better care of them and something else gets them and then the ones you don't think are doing good are better off than you thought.

[n8hutch]

I look at trees as I do people some die young and some die old. There are some you think are healthier because you try to take better care of them and something else gets them and then the ones you don't think are doing good are better off than you thought.

That is A great way to look at things!! I have been thining tree's around my place the last few years, mostly hardwood, but I have cut A few Hemlock, I have a Bunch of big Hemlocks that need to go, but I'm not real keen on felling them myself, they are about 2-3 feet at the stump & probably 75' Tall, there's just no good place to put them, funny thing is I actually work for A company that has A big logging division, the Boss said he would take them down with A buncher sometime when he is near by , I am starting to loose patience however & am A little worried about my maples rute systems.

[VT_K9]

This year we expanded to a new area and prior to running wire and tubing we cut several hemlocks. We planned to use many of them for saw logs and the rest of the trees I will cut for firewood in my outdoor furnace. We had one large hemlock left and wouldn't you know it, the tree fell just a shade off from the planned direction. The top of the hemlock became lodged in a high crotch of a 15" Maple. I used the logging winch to pull the hemlock and the mapl followed it to the ground. It was too bad to loose a nice maple, but it will give me some good harwood and if it came down that easy, it would probably get blown down in a storm.

The 3 pt logging winch has helped a lot with minimizing damage in the sugar orchard, but things happen.

Mike

[maple flats]

Back in '78 (or was it '79) I had my sugarbush land logged, long before I ever thought of getting into sugaring. Unfortunately I was to young and inexperienced to know anything (during the planning stage) but what money I was going to get out of it and found out too late that a written contract should have been in place. It was done on a handshake. After the logging was done I decided I'd do all my own from then on. The logger skidder driver drove over anything in his way, even if an easy alternative was near by, and he left ruts up to 30" deep. While I liked the check at the end I had learned a valuable lesson.
While I do all my own now with either a 36 HP tractor and a 3 ph log arch along with an excavator, there is a better way to get a logger to do a cut. First get a forester up front to mark the trees, generate the contract and supervise the contract, boots in the woods. He will address the issues I had problems with in my case. Even then you will get some damage, but the forester will plan the log roads and likely the skid trails.
Since I started doing all of my own, I have never damaged a crop tree, but have skinned some trash trees. I skid with the tractor and log arch when conditions allow and drag with the excavator the rest of the time. (I also have not used a wedge to drop a tree since getting the excavator, I just raise the bucket up high and put pressure on the tree as soon as I've cut the notch, it has never failed to fall the way I intended it to go with that method. I find an excavator to be an excellent skidder. I just hook the log chain to a hook on the back of the bucket. With that I can steer the log anywhere I want by just swinging the bucket (and/or cab) left or right as needed. The tracks on the excavator don't tear up the woods like the tires on a tractor do either, when on fragile ground, and as the rolling ground keeps going up and down I can always hold the log as high as I want. In most cases I just limb the whole tree and pull tree length if the needed path allows.
While few have an excavator, a tractor works fine too, just be super careful and don't pull the load from too high. When I pull with the tractor, if the load is heavy, I use an extra chain. When I lift the log with the log arch I place a nearby log limb under the lifted log and set it back down. I then hook a second chain under the log to the lift chain and short couple it to the low drawbar on the tractor. My tractor is a hydro drive and the final step I take is to just push on the edge of the hydro pedal to go, if anything catches my foot is ready to slip off the pedal and the tractor stops instantly. Then I lit the log again and tow. Now the log is up but the pull is from down low. The other alternative is to just drive rather slow. It only takes a fraction of a second to flip a tractor if the towed log gets caught on a rock, stump or something else. The instant it stops the tractor flips up and over on top of the operator.

[Tom_saw]

We just our woods logged . We used a consulting forester on a percentage basis of the contract. Definitely make sure that you check out out both the logger and forester's jobs and reputation .10593 This is not what you want your Maples looking like .

[maple flats]

Tom_saw, if that picture repeats throughout the woods it is bad, if that is the worst damage it is good.

[tuckermtn]

was the tree that is uprooted bumped/pushed or was it wind-throw? hard to tell...

[Northwoodsforester]

Hey Folks!
I am a forester and syrup maker with 30 years experience in Northern Wisconsin. I highly recommend that you first check the Forest Stewards Guild roster (https://www.forestguild.org) to find a forester in your area. Forest Stewards Guild members are highly ethical, the best in the field and will protect your sugarbush and long term interests. Most important: log only during frozen conditions (October up until or before Spring breakup begins), and especially do not begin operations until after bark has fully tightened up in the fall. You can do real damage in your sugarbush if you Spring or Summer log. Most of the damage (bark slippage on roots) is underground and can not be seen. Summer logging (and root damage) will introduce disease and heart rot into your trees. By the way, a good logger (look for certified "Master Loggers") should be able to thin your sugarbush with less than 1% damage to residual trees. More than this is unacceptable. Aim for smaller machines with high floatation/low ground pressure tracks or independent wheel suspension. I prefer a feller/buncher with a processor head on a excavator with tracks (these allow excellent control at grasping and directionally felling trees with a minimum of damage to residual trees), and articulated "forwarders" for minimum damage when removing wood (see photos below). Avoid cable or any grapple skidders if at all possible (unless you are in very hilly terrain where it may be your only option). Even horse loggers can do irreparable damage to your woods if cutting is done during the wrong time of year or when ground conditions are saturated (wet). Trees should be marked by a forester and removed based on "Risk & Vigor" marking rules (removing diseased tree first), with no upper diameter limit. Keep in mind that sugarbush management has its own science & techniques and has very different objectives than managing for timber. Negotiate your timber sale contract and stumpage prices with the logger so he can take his time and afford to shut down if ground conditions change. DO NOT BID YOUR JOB OUT TO THE LOWEST BIDDER! Bottom line: if you breakeven economically but leave your sugarbush in a healthier condition you will be way ahead long term. Good luck!
1610816109
_________________
2017 is our 30th year producing in Land O Lakes, WI
1987-2001 - 1200 taps commercial, all 16 quart pail operation, single horse (Shires, Clydes, & Norwegian Fiords) sled & wagon, all hand collection woods operation.
2001-present - 250 taps, hobby only
Leader 4x16’ raised flue, wood fired
65 acres of healthy 125+ year old sugar maples and mixed northern hardwoods.
Come visit anytime (715-367-1814)

[Cedar Eater]

Through a roundabout way, I was put in touch with a forester who was a retired federal forester who went into private practice. He knew how to write a contract and run a sealed bid and he required the loggers to be bonded and to put money in in an escrow-like trust for the end of the job when some loggers like to cut and run. My advice is to join forestryforum.com and get advice including forester recommendations from them.

[wally]

Hey Folks!
I am a forester and syrup maker with 30 years experience in Northern Wisconsin. I highly recommend that you first check the Forest Stewards Guild roster (https://www.forestguild.org) to find a forester in your area. Forest Stewards Guild members are highly ethical, the best in the field and will protect your sugarbush and long term interests. Most important: log only during frozen conditions (October up until or before Spring breakup begins), and especially do not begin operations until after bark has fully tightened up in the fall. You can do real damage in your sugarbush if you Spring or Summer log. Most of the damage (bark slippage on roots) is underground and can not be seen. Summer logging (and root damage) will introduce disease and heart rot into your trees. By the way, a good logger (look for certified "Master Loggers") should be able to thin your sugarbush with less than 1% damage to residual trees. More than this is unacceptable. Aim for smaller machines with high floatation/low ground pressure tracks or independent wheel suspension. I prefer a feller/buncher with a processor head on a excavator with tracks (these allow excellent control at grasping and directionally felling trees with a minimum of damage to residual trees), and articulated "forwarders" for minimum damage when removing wood (see photos below). Avoid cable or any grapple skidders if at all possible (unless you are in very hilly terrain where it may be your only option). Even horse loggers can do irreparable damage to your woods if cutting is done during the wrong time of year or when ground conditions are saturated (wet). Trees should be marked by a forester and removed based on "Risk & Vigor" marking rules (removing diseased tree first), with no upper diameter limit. Keep in mind that sugarbush management has its own science & techniques and has very different objectives than managing for timber. Negotiate your timber sale contract and stumpage prices with the logger so he can take his time and afford to shut down if ground conditions change. DO NOT BID YOUR JOB OUT TO THE LOWEST BIDDER! Bottom line: if you breakeven economically but leave your sugarbush in a healthier condition you will be way ahead long term. Good luck!
1610816109
_________________
2017 is our 30th year producing in Land O Lakes, WI
1987-2001 - 1200 taps commercial, all 16 quart pail operation, single horse (Shires, Clydes, & Norwegian Fiords) sled & wagon, all hand collection woods operation.
2001-present - 250 taps, hobby only
Leader 4x16’ raised flue, wood fired
65 acres of healthy 125+ year old sugar maples and mixed northern hardwoods.
Come visit anytime (715-367-1814)

i've never felt the urge to join the guild, partly because of the off-putting attitude of superiority that comes across in statements like this, "Guild members...are the best in the field". there is no doubt that members of the guild tend to be good foresters, with a wealth of knowledge. however, joining requires sponsorship, it also requires money, and attending a national guild meeting. some of us aren't interested in the game.

i do not look down at any guild members, nor do i see myself as better than guild members. i am not smarter or a better forester because of any membership, either SAF, guild, tree farm, state, whatever. i just do my job to the best of my ability, represent landowners in their quest to manage their forests, and recognize that there are thousands of individuals lucky enough to do what we do as foresters, namely, get paid to work in the woods. i keep abreast of silvicultural strategies, ideas, and information through CEU/contact hour/training, reading, and networking with other foresters, along with monitoring the results of my projects dating back to 1992 (when i started professionally). the guild, SAF, and tree farm certainly do help in networking, but are not the only avenues. to be clear, i am not opposed to those; they have benefits. i am a tree farm inspector, and served on the state committee more than a decade ago. but they are not the be all, end all of forestry.

as a consultant, i'm ultimately responsible to clients. i don't advertise (never have), other than through the results of projects i supervise. i garner work through word of mouth of clients, and logging contractors that have worked with me (i've worked with one or two on this board, ahem, PARKER, ahem). i see plenty of opportunities for more foresters; competition is good.

as far as managing a sugar orchard, i share your enthusiasm for cut-to-length harvesting as a preferred method, but it is not the only method. in fact, because of the crappy pulp markets, CTL right now has a difficult time competing for wood fiber. CTL is REALLY good at producing pulpwood and cordwood. it is less efficient for hardwood sawlogs and veneer than cable skidding, and for long skid distances compared to grapple/whole tree harvesters. CTL equipment is expensive to purchase; if CTL operators don't have good markets for pulp, they are going to be relegated to niche markets. so even though i might prefer CTL in a sugar orchard, the reality is that the lack of stability in the market might make their availability limited going forward. even though orchard clients might be willing to pay a premium for CTL, the problem is what do the CTL owner/operators do the rest of the year? they need to be productive year-round, not just in the winter months. (same for other forms of logging, too).

i also prefer negotiated contracts to bid projects for orchard work, finding the operator BEST suited to the particular project rather than the operator paying the most. it's more important to find an operator capable and willing to do the precise work needed in a sugar bush. don't be in a big rush, better to do the job well than fast. if it takes several stages, that's not a bad thing.

wally
nhlpf #279

[minehart gap]

Not sure about Vermont but PA has a State Certificate process and list of Certified Foresters that are truly third party. They will handle everything from marking timber based on your goals and objectives, laying out log roads and landings, receiving bids from loggers, writing contracts and monitoring logging activities. The charge a percentage of the payout from the timber. Perhaps your conservation district or NRCS office will be able to direct you.

I know that black birch is considered not a valuable tree in a forest but that is only by people that have never made birch beer. Warning - it is alcoholic when made of sap and it packs a punch. I definitely thin the birch as they will take over a forest if not kept in check.

[heus]

We had our sugar woods select cut about 4 years ago. I walked the woods with the owner of the Amish outfit and told him exactly which trees I wanted cut. It ended up being about 200 red oak, beech, pignut hickory, cherry. He then gave me a price which I accepted. They skidded only with horses and did a nice job avoiding my maples. With that being said, I recommended him to my cousin next door to cut over 150 acres. They are using a bulldozer and are completely destroying the woods. Everything 10" and over is being cut, according to their contract. There is a whole lot more to the story. My cousin has sold his land, 7 acres with house and outbuildings of it being to me. The loggers will be in there until next October (they started last November). They are using my property to store the cut lumber for pickup. From what I have seen and heard around here in NE Ohio, loggers will go as far as you let them. If no one is constantly monitoring their activity in the woods, extra trees will be cut.
Also, I see Eric commented in this thread. RIP Tucker Mt.

[Beavertrapper]

After reading through this whole post, I feel that I may be able to help. I was a bit off put by the initial bashing of all loggers. I myself am a logger, working as a cutter for a cable skidder crew. The biggest factor I find about loggers doing a good job on a lot is landowner presence. If a landowner is absentee on the land or does not keep an eye on an operation, it can be hard for a logger to please them. On the other hand, unscrupulous loggers will also take advantage of these landowners. But there are always a few bad eggs. I agree with hiring a forester, but don't just put the whole operation into the hands of the forester, because they may not have the same views as you. Spend all the time you can in the woods with the forester and logger during the operation. If you see anything that makes you unhappy, address it to the logger. They may be able to explain why they are doing it that way, or if there is no reason behind their actions they may change their course of action. Remember that you can always return and cut trees after the harvest, so don't be afraid to mark some undesirables as bumper trees to protect your crop trees if possible. And last, you may need to offer a logger some incentive to produce the job you want done. Sometimes wood prices aren't enough alone to justify the extra work of protecting your valuable sugar trees. Pay the guy a little extra, and it may pay off for you in the end.

[Cedar Eater]

After reading through this whole post, I feel that I may be able to help. I was a bit off put by the initial bashing of all loggers. I myself am a logger, working as a cutter for a cable skidder crew. The biggest factor I find about loggers doing a good job on a lot is landowner presence. If a landowner is absentee on the land or does not keep an eye on an operation, it can be hard for a logger to please them. On the other hand, unscrupulous loggers will also take advantage of these landowners. But there are always a few bad eggs. I agree with hiring a forester, but don't just put the whole operation into the hands of the forester, because they may not have the same views as you. Spend all the time you can in the woods with the forester and logger during the operation. If you see anything that makes you unhappy, address it to the logger. They may be able to explain why they are doing it that way, or if there is no reason behind their actions they may change their course of action. Remember that you can always return and cut trees after the harvest, so don't be afraid to mark some undesirables as bumper trees to protect your crop trees if possible. And last, you may need to offer a logger some incentive to produce the job you want done. Sometimes wood prices aren't enough alone to justify the extra work of protecting your valuable sugar trees. Pay the guy a little extra, and it may pay off for you in the end.

This is great advice and I might add that you can mark the trees that you want protected and write into the contract that damaging them at their base will cost something extra. This is where a forester and a forced bond can be a great help. The logger will then use more harvest trees as bumpers and cut them last as they pull out of the area. Some damage will be unavoidable, but a clear understanding of what you want and expect goes a long way toward minimizing losses for both landowner and logger.

[Beavertrapper]

I also read some discussion on whole tree harvesting with the chipping of tops and limbs. I know it creates a sugarbush that is easier to navigate and more eye appealing, skidding whole tops will cause more damage to residual trees, some of which are your sugar trees. Tree length skidding (trees limbed and topped to merchantable diameter) will allow for narrower skid trails as well as a cleaner landing. By cutting the tops and limbs up on the forest floor you will be replacing nutrients in the soil as well as creating habitat. Any firewood that can be harvested from these limbs and tops can be done afterwards in dryer months with an atv or tractor, and it will allow you to control that end of the aspect entirely. It's a topic that could really have a whole forum just for itself. I recommend anyone who is interested in the harvest portion to become a memeber of forestryforum.com. Lots of experienced professional loggers and foresters on there who are very willing to help. You may even find a logger or forester on there in your area.