why tubing instead of pvc pipe?

[cjmiller272]

So i was pricing some 3/4 tubing when i discovered its nearly twice the cost of pvc pipe. Example: 100 ft of 3/4 tubing for $34 or $.34/ft. I bought 10 foot lengths of 3/4 pvc pipe for $1.69 ea. or $.169/ft. So why buy mainline if pvc pipe is half as much

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

One factor may be that the PVC does not have much UV resistance, which is a major cost in plastic.

[mellondome]

Ever see what a tree falling on suspended pvc will do? Or when there is a sag in your line and it freezes? Try gluing it together @below zero. Just not designed to be suspended through the woods .
Like putting a bicycle tire on your car because its cheaper.. Sure its round...

[BreezyHill]

Check with your cdl dealer in your area for a better price on tubing. PVC is good for the line to the water trap and to the releaser. In the woods it wont last.

[cjmiller272]

Not sure what impact the uv has in the shortterm as is what im looking at since i may not have these woods more than a few seasons. No i have not seen pvc broken to know how it may behave in the woods but replacing a few feet of pvc aint difficult. Uve got me on the frozen sap in sags, but my last couple hundred feet has significant slope. Im looking at running 1200 feet of mainline to pick up about 75 taps on land i may not have in a year or two, future of ownership being uncertain

[mellondome]

If you do go the pvc route.. do it early enough in the fall that the high is worn off by tapping time.
One summer while in college, by grandfather won a contract to do water system for a new camp site. 10 days straight.. all I did was glue collars on 1 1/2 pvc . Burnt just enough brain cells to think there is money somewhere in maple.

How are you going to attach your laterals to it?

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

Without looking at my receipts I think I pay around $90-100 per 500' role of 3/4" black water pipe. Not sure what you are looking at for 3/4, but I think what I pay is like 18-20 cents per ft. Try to shop around a little before you go PVC. Not to be negative, but I think you will regret it and I can't imagine it working out well for the reasons already mentioned. With water pipe, you can't go wrong. Make sure it is at least 100 PSI water pipe.

Good luck,
Ben

[mellondome]

Have you looked at using black water line? That should be just as cheap or cheaper than pvc.

[batsofbedlam]

Originally, tubing was made out of PVC. Besides not being UV resistant, it stretched and therefore sagged. Pulling it taught eliminated the sag but stretched the tubing, therefore making the hole in the center smaller in diameter. But the real problem with it was that the plasticizers in the PVC migrated and the tubing became very sticky both on the outside and on the inside. This created the perfect environment for mold and bacteria to grab a foothold and multiply. The best move in the industry was making tubing from HDPE (high density polyethylene).

[maplwrks]

I know of quite a few operations here in Vt. that us PVC pipe in the woods. If I had a large operation, I would use it as well. Tree damage fixes are very simple with an 18v sawzall and a glue coupling. A lot of the guys using it are using it for their trunks lines only.(wet/dry) Lapierre was using PVC in their woods 10 yrs ago. IMHO use it, it goes up fast and repairs easy.

[Scribner's Mountain Maple]

If PVC was meant for use as water pipe it would be used for it in residential and commercial construction. It isn't food grade. At least that is my guess. PVC is used for water and crapper drains, I wouldn't want to drink water that ran through a glued piece of PVC. Just me, but I would go water line.

I wouldn't even use it as a Dry line since sap sometimes runs in it. I doubt any body reading this would drop a teaspoon of pipe cleaner into a glass of water before they drank it, same goes with the PVC glue. Nasty stuff both of them. Just my two cents.

When calculating your cost of PVC - Vs. Water pipe, don't forget to factor in the glue and pipe cleaner for PVC ($10 maybe). That likely makes it much closer to black water pipe.

[DrTimPerkins]

Quite a bit more difficult to go around any bends with rigid PVC. Sags can be a problem unless it is supported very well due to the weight. If sap can build up and freeze in a spot, it can split the pipe or break the unions. Repairs at cold temperatures and/or with running sap cam be problematic.

It is definitely used in some places for specific reasons, but isn't extremely common except for very large operations and mostly inside buildings.

[IPL Technical Support]

It won't be a surprise for all of you if I'm telling you that PVC is an outdated product for maple sap collection. As we are a PE Pipe supplier, it's easy for me to say that HDPE is a better resin. However, I will list the advantages of both materials and try to be as unbiased as I can:

+ for PVC:

Can be cheaper than HDPE
Lighter
Better wall thickness vs pressure rating
Great availability
Crystal clear


+ for HDPE:

High weatherability
Flexible (go around trees)
High long-term reliability
Fusable
Naturally food grade
Coilable (up to 3000FT in 1" before having a joint)
Low brittleness point
Latest trends in pipe is in HDPE


Regards,

[Mark]

I use the 15 year 4 seasons. Why don't you make a 15 year mainline?

[lwlvine]

PVC works great as an under ground line. I use it on all my buried mains.

[GeneralStark]

It won't be a surprise for all of you if I'm telling you that PVC is an outdated product for maple sap collection. As we are a PE Pipe supplier, it's easy for me to say that HDPE is a better resin. However, I will list the advantages of both materials and try to be as unbiased as I can:

+ for PVC:

Can be cheaper than HDPE
Lighter
Better wall thickness vs pressure rating
Great availability
Crystal clear


+ for HDPE:

High weatherability
Flexible (go around trees)
High long-term reliability
Fusable
Naturally food grade
Coilable (up to 3000FT in 1" before having a joint)
Low brittleness point
Latest trends in pipe is in HDPE


Regards,

I'm curious about the "naturally food grade" factor. In another thread regarding potable water pipe (charter plastics) vs. CDL HD Mainline, there was a question regarding the difference (if there is one) in resins used for these two pipes and is one more "food grade" than the other.

In other words is the "potable water standard" different than a "food grade standard" in mainline pipe?

[GeneralStark]

PVC works great as an under ground line. I use it on all my buried mains.

How deep do you bury your PVC mains?

[IPL Technical Support]

Mark,

Simply a question of inventory. Do you imagine doubling all the sizes and lengths for a 15-year mainline? We would have to create 3/4", 1", 1-1/4", 1-1/2" and 2" with 500footer and reel options. Also, people will ask blue and black. So, if we do the maths: 5 x 2 x 2 = 20 options for a product that would still represent 15% of our sales.


I use the 15 year 4 seasons. Why don't you make a 15 year mainline?

[IPL Technical Support]

GeneralStark,

When I say "naturally", I'm mean that the original formula of virgin polyethylene is non-toxic. You could eat a handful of polyethylene pellets without any problem (I'm not recommending it by the way). With PVC it's a different concern. The resin formula has to be modified to reach the non-toxic stage. The plasticizers used in the pipe is the main toxic substance. When modified or removed though it can be used for medical applications like intravenous microtubing.

The difference between "potable water" and "food grade" is quite subtle. Potable water pipes are generally meeting the NSF 14/61 standards while the food grade pipes are meeting the Food&Drugs Administration standards. The common printline on a tube in the maple sap market is food grade, but the lack of certifications in this industry makes the claim quite large. Even if polyethylene is naturally non-toxic, you could still have bad odors and contamination problems with some pipe. The best practice would be to use only virgin material or controlled source regrinded plastic with UV additives and colors that meet the FDA standards. The CDL HD Mainline is meeting all the standards. Please ask your rep about Charter's.


I'm curious about the "naturally food grade" factor. In another thread regarding potable water pipe (charter plastics) vs. CDL HD Mainline, there was a question regarding the difference (if there is one) in resins used for these two pipes and is one more "food grade" than the other.

In other words is the "potable water standard" different than a "food grade standard" in mainline pipe?

[mellondome]

If PVC was meant for use as water pipe it would be used for it in residential and commercial construction. It isn't food grade. At least that is my guess. PVC is used for water and crapper drains, I wouldn't want to drink water that ran through a glued piece of PVC.

Pvc is and was used for residential water. The issue with it in this enviroment is it cannot tolerate heat. Thus the cpvc is now used.
Check out some of the ro machines on the market and you will find pvc used in them as well

[lwlvine]

How deep do you bury your PVC mains?

Depends of the grade of the land. I try to keep it below 4 feet but some times its much deeper if I am going through a rise or something. Some times I can only get a couple feet so I cover it with styrofoam so it doesnt freeze.

[GeneralStark]

GeneralStark,

When I say "naturally", I'm mean that the original formula of virgin polyethylene is non-toxic. You could eat a handful of polyethylene pellets without any problem (I'm not recommending it by the way). With PVC it's a different concern. The resin formula has to be modified to reach the non-toxic stage. The plasticizers used in the pipe is the main toxic substance. When modified or removed though it can be used for medical applications like intravenous microtubing.

The difference between "potable water" and "food grade" is quite subtle. Potable water pipes are generally meeting the NSF 14/61 standards while the food grade pipes are meeting the Food&Drugs Administration standards. The common printline on a tube in the maple sap market is food grade, but the lack of certifications in this industry makes the claim quite large. Even if polyethylene is naturally non-toxic, you could still have bad odors and contamination problems with some pipe. The best practice would be to use only virgin material or controlled source regrinded plastic with UV additives and colors that meet the FDA standards. The CDL HD Mainline is meeting all the standards. Please ask your rep about Charter's.

I told by a FW Webbs representative that Charter pipe meets the NSF 61 standard. He did not mention anything about any FDA standard. So, it seems that CDL pipe is manufactured to a higher standard.

[Mark]

Depends of the grade of the land. I try to keep it below 4 feet but some times its much deeper if I am going through a rise or something. Some times I can only get a couple feet so I cover it with styrofoam so it doesnt freeze.
How do you keep it from freezing where it goes into and out of the ground?

[lwlvine]

How do you keep it from freezing where it goes into and out of the ground?

It's always straight up and down where it goes through the ground so sap never stays in it and therefore never freezes.

[802maple]

In any setup, no matter the mainline, you are asking for trouble if you go around a tree with the mainline. I have used both and still will. If you want a good system you need to support your mainlines either ways, because if you have a sag your performance is down.

[DaveB]

I used a 150' length of PVC pipe and couplings this year for my dump station to transport sap to my sugar house so I didn't have to drive through the mud to drop off the sap. Outside of a few pump logistical issues, it worked fairly well. I plan on doing it next year for some of my returns because I think it's a lot easier to set it up than mainline pipe. I'll see how it goes but it just seems like a lot of effort to setup the mainline wire and secure the piping to it every 6" when I can use a more rigid pipe supported from tree to tree to return the sap sap.

[Drew Pond Maple]

So why do all the maple mfg.'s sell pvc pipe and fittings and glue? Maybe to plumb in a toilet in your sugar shack?
Don't most releasers have pvc fittings on top also? If it says NSF-pw on pipe or fitting im pretty sure it's safe to use for drinking water. The whole glue thing I haven't figured out yet. That doesn't seem "food grade".
I use 3/4" pvc for from my feed tank to evaporator without glueing the fittings.